Abraham and Isaac and murder.....

Genesis Chapter 22

1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.

2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Mori'ah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

3 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him.

4 Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off.

5 And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you.

6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together.

7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?

8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

9 And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar Jas. 2.21 upon the wood.

10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.

11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.

12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son, from me.

13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.

I find this very interesting. God actually told one of his followers to kill his son. I know, I know it was just a test, but it was certainly a sick test. Another thing this completely goes against one of the Ten Commandments given to Moses.

So is it OK for God to Contradict himself even if it is a test?

Ya know, all of it makes no sense at all...an all knowing god, knows the end results of anything, everything...he/she would of know before even creating human kind, what the out come would be, before "offering his son he would of already known the outcome, he would of known every thing before doing anything...it doesn't wash at all!

Just a note:

The Ten Commandments had not been given to Moses at the time of the Abraham/Isaac event. Moses came around much later, and the point was to test Abraham's loyalty to God under the OT culture and religious atmosphere of the time and area, because of the great promise god was to make to him regsarding his descendants.

Just a note, carry on

Originally posted by everlastingnoitall
Just a note:

The Ten Commandments had not been given to Moses at the time of the Abraham/Isaac event. Moses came around much later, and the point was to test Abraham's loyalty to God under the OT culture and religious atmosphere of the time and area, because of the great promise god was to make to him regsarding his descendants.

Just a note, carry on

Still doesn't wash.......a "god" would of known his loyalty......there would be no need for testing.

You've never tested the character of a person when you knew absolutely what the outcome could be?

Not trying to be argumentative, I know it's rather paradoxical, and it is hard to explain the interpretation, but it makes sense to me.

Of course, I spend alot of time alone thinking while driving, so maybe I just have thought myself out of mainstream thought processes, who knows?

None of it makes any logical sense at all....A god knows all....and a god doesn't need any sacrifices either!

EDIT: No, I do not typically test people, especially my loved ones! that would be playing little head games!



[edit on 8/28/2004 by LadyV]

I test my son all the time. I believe character testing and challenges that encourage thought and mistakes, even when I know the outcome, are fruitful in producing a child that can live within the confines of authority, yet be creative enough and enough of an independant thinker to come up with some really wild and extremely intelligent, thought provoking things.

testing, even though one knows the outcome, is not necessaruly nonsensical. It encourages personal growth and can be used for behavior modification in the one being tested.

Right or wrong, it happens.

Again, I don't mean this to be argumentative, and I'm not trying to dispute your take on things, just contributing my two cents, for what they're worth.

By the way, sacrificing went away a long time ago in the judeo/christian sect. I;ve never sacrificed anything to a/the god.

[edit on 28-8-2004 by everlastingnoitall]

Well, we shall have to agree to disagree.....I see it as a bunch of nonsense, and, by the way, I spend much of free alone time in thought also, though I don't have as much as I would like. Also, while my children, now all grown, were young we did much talking and learning from each other...but no, I did not "test" them.

There's a difference between thinking you know the outcome and really knowing the outcome. To give a test implies that the tested has free will not subject to fate.

I also think it's interesting that God acknowledges the existance of other Gods. God is proud of his omnipotence, not his omniscience. This all leaves me to wonder what would be above the God we know from the Old Testament. Or rather if God created himself, what exactly was created, etc. etc.

Originally posted by Jamuhn
There's a difference between thinking you know the outcome and really knowing the outcome.

An all knowing god would really know!

Originally posted by everlastingnoitall
Just a note:

The Ten Commandments had not been given to Moses at the time of the Abraham/Isaac event. Moses came around much later, and the point was to test Abraham's loyalty to God under the OT culture and religious atmosphere of the time and area, because of the great promise god was to make to him regsarding his descendants.

Just a note, carry on

In actuality the Pentateuch (the first five books of the Bible) were written by Moses between 1446 and 1406 B.C. These five books were actually one all written by Moses.

I'm aware of the authorship of the Pentateuch. I was just illustrating the time period referenced was before the Ten Commandments. Surely even the author, if as morally upright as supposed, took that into consideration when writing the story, or he may never have written it for fear of a supposed contradiction. It's kind of like the thinking that black holes sucked up material and spewed it out of wormholes, thought a decade or two ago to be quasars, only to find out we were wrong. A modern author relating the history of the development of black hole theory would not omit that period, fearing a contradiction, would they? The author (Moses?) simply related a historical event that took place before the God instituted the law of the ten Commandments to a radically rebellious people. I see no contradiction there.

Well, I guess one thing it would say is that God is subject to change. Without written notice...like a copyright or something..

Therein lies one of the events that confuses the issue of free will, unless it was a psychological exercise that Abram needed to go through to determine just how much he "feared" and loved God.

[edit on 10/2/2004 by esther]