Lisa Irwin - Missing - One Year Later

found this list of Johnny C's posts ...seamusoriley.blogspot.com...
there was more to what he had to say than what's been posted here on Silo's thread so far. I understand that some find him lacking credibility, and that it seems unlikely that others know the facts of what happened and have not come forward. Nevertheless, many many families (probably the vast majority) don't want their lives and histories publicly exposed. I don't think it's out of the question, either, that the others who may (or may not) have been called on for help have agreed to keep quiet...or TOLD to keep quiet...by those whose interest is avoiding charges.

Johnny Chiaravallotti We know what happened. And I never change my stance on such serious matters. Just trying to educate others how these things come to be.

Johnny Chiaravallotti All we can do now is learn and try to prevent these unfortunate tragedies

Johnny Chiaravallotti We have cooperated with law enforcement. They still contact me for personal insights about my family. Its very important to understand the psychology of the people involved. This is not as complicated as it may seem to people that only know whats in the press. It is what it is and nothing more

Johnny Chiaravallotti I am the only family member that has helped. And I do so for the baby. I love my family but the truth is what matters. I want her found now. I am very bothered by Lisa Renee not recieving the peace she deserves. The Police know what happened too. But proving it takes time.

Johnny Chiaravallotti Yes search. We dont know where she is. Yes search.

Johnny Chiaravallotti David Netz is suspected of killing his estranged wife by doping her drink. He had plenty of motive and her death left him with a clean slate and a new life. The 3 kids even think he may of been involved in their mothers death. Them kids have been thru alot. Too much.

Johnny Chiaravallotti Theres no satanism. But David Netz is a strange dude. A computer nerd who is sneaky and has a con man mentality.

There is no way to prove if this guy is real or an impostor, but those remarks sound pretty sincere to me.

Johnny Chiaravallotti
I am not venting. Nor am I drunk. Come on people. I have plenty of people to talk to. I just want to straighten out all the false rumors on this page.

Johnny Chiaravallotti Jeremy is being lied to. He has nothing to do with this.

Johnny Chiaravallotti Yes I am nuts. But I am smart too. And I believe in Jesus. I believe in Heaven. Thats all I have for Lisa. Heaven.

Johnny Chiaravallotti I just talked to the FBI in KC. In person. Their hands are tied. Thank the US Constitution. And pal ... I had my l5 mins. In Kuwait when I tried to stay alive for l9 mos.

Johnny Chiaravallotti Just look out for young girls with babies and make sure they are ok. David Netz took them kids back to KC and I wish I was closer to Debbie in the last year or so. I wouldve seen something wrong and I wouldve helped.

Not saying I do or do not believe him, or that this is really him speaking, or that he is making things up, or that he is truthful.
Just thought you all might be interested in reading the posts he supposedly put up.

I did do a little searching for the Chiaravallotti family - - and they have had numerous problems.
The comments he made about Deborah's dad, and what he claims she and her brothers felt about him, were interesting to me.

And here's an update on Tanko ("Jersey") and how he is viewed by his attorney and police (according to his public defender attorney):

Tanko was arrested Oct. 14 in connection with an Oct. 13 incident. Police questioned him about baby Lisa's disappearance but ultimately said they have "moved on." Kansas City police and the FBI have not cleared anyone in the case if new evidence arises that warrants additional scrutiny.

But his public defender, Horton Lance, said he is not treating his client as a suspect in the disappearance of baby Lisa and he has received no indication otherwise from police.

(emphasis mine)
and a bit later in the report:

Picerno and New York attorney Joe Tacopina are representing Lisa's parents, Debbie Bradley and Jeremy Irwin. Neither Picerno nor Tacopina responded to attempts to reach them Wednesday for comment.

www.kctv5.com...

So, we are back to him being simply charged with tampering with a vehicle, pleading not guilty, having been shuttled between Clay and Jackson counties due to investigations and cases in the two separate jurisdictions(NOT to STOP REPORTERS from tracking him down). The rumor of his $300 brag is by the media being portrayed as unimportant, unproven, and discounted. And the attorneys for Deborah and Jeremy are not available for comment.

Last week, John Picerno told a television reporter that a witness claims Tanko was paid $300 to kidnap the then 10-month-old baby.

Picerno said the girl claims Tanko bragged about the kidnapping to another man.

The teen said she was with the second man following a vigil for the baby and he claimed the handyman made the claim, Picerno contends.

That second man has subsequently denied making such a claim according to media reports.

So when all is said and done, the police are truthful when they support what we believe, and should not be taken seriously when they disagree with what we believe....

This police are highly effective, as long as they are taking confessions, and if the criminals don't want to confess to their crimes we should certain not expect the police to catch them....

Some have now suggested that KCPD have been told, (given if you will) that X killed a child, and the people who told them, have passed a lie detector test, given ALL that information, six weeks later, the KCPD is incapable of arresting the guilty party, because there is no evidence? LOL and I'm suppose to "hate" the police?

Let's see it was reported that KCPD, doesn't have a clue as to what happen to Lisa, and it is likely to take years to solve. This was denied by the DA, (who went so far as to claim it was taken out of context) the next week we learn, that the case is in effect a cold case, that there are other cases, and a backlog of things that need to be done... Now that sure seems to give credence to the first report. Of course some will maintain that this is simply the KCPD giving the guilty, enough rope to hang themselves with. What we can most likely agree upon is the person who spilled the beans regrets it... Or could that have possiblely have been an intentional leak to test public opinion about moving this case to the back burner? If so it evidently did not cause enough of an uproar to keep it out of the cold case area. For that matter, is it possible that KCPD having quickly determined that this case is indeed a random case, unlikely to be solved quickly wanted the sheeple to feel safe, set about an intentional plan to point the finger at the parents. Knowing we would all feel much safer, believing the parents guilty, rather than an apparent unknown random agent is behind the mystery?

The sad fact is we don't know where Lisa is.
There are no arrest in this case.
We have two other missing children cases, and in both of them there are arrest.
In the end I would contend that results speak for themselves. Just as the lack of results speak...

reply to post by Michelle129th

I mean, I won't begrudge anyone hoping his words are true, but to completely fall over top of yourself to hear words from a complete stranger on FB that there's a good chance is like Joe blow from down the street is just insanity to me!

In my case I hope his words are not true.

When I first saw the page (I don't know what's going on with it now) there were many pictures - old and recent - Deborah's family, pictures of everyone, Lisa, etc. Way back when this started he seemed to be credible, how he'd been interviewed by the police, FBI etc. It's a tough one - mostly because we have so little information coming from the 'Brad-Wins' themselves.

Who knows? There was as much credibility to his posts as there as to Samantha's, etc. But when it all comes down to it? Who can say?

One thing though - someone mentioned there was something 'off' about the Uncle 'coming out' about Deborah asking the family to help with the body implying it would make him culpable?
How? He's already told the FBI/police every thing he knows. He 'confessed' to all he knew. As his 'page' says - the 'FBI's hands are tied'. Why? Nothing concrete to lead to an arrest and no body. And since (in my feeble understanding) the police cannot arrest someone on HEARSAY? There ya go.

peace

reply to post by IwasOnceHappy

I just wanted to say, to those who observe it, Happy Thanksgiving to all.

I hope wherever Lisa is right now, I hope she does have a good Thanksgiving.

Thank you 'Happy'.
We all do have so much to be Thankful for.
That being said I hope we're NOT going to be invited into the Brad-Win home for this T-Day.
We'll see.
Between now and then I also hope and pray Lisa is having a wonderful day - no matter where she is.
Peace to you and yours, thanks for your kind wishes.
gracie

reply to post by Redux

That uncle's rantings don't make much sense to me. Her family refused to help her dispose of the body that night, but now they are all risking their freedom to cover for her by not coming forward and telling the police what they know? Doesn't make sense.

That's an awful lot of conclusion jumping' in my opinion. Who says any of them are risking their freedom to 'cover up' anything?

The 'Uncle' stated wayyyy back he'd spent a long time talking with the police. I'm sure if he's bold enough to make the statements he has abotu Deborah on FB - he's made them to the police. I recall there being a post about him 'telling all he knew' and as of the last time I saw the page he even gave the number to the police he'd just gotten finished talking to.

Even if he is full of bologna?

The police (report at least) they still have no hardcore lead that would back up a indictment/arrest.
And since Deborah can't be arrested on HEARSAY - with nothing to back it up?
I don't see the problem. Please point me in the right direction if I'm missing something. And no, that's not me being snide, that's asking for direction.

Also, we've not heard anything about the Uncle or the families phone records. I can only think the police want it that way. At this point they (the police) want all levels of communication open between the family 'just in case' Deborah or Jeremy 'break down'.

I do believe time is the only true force that will solve this case - at this point. I believe the police are acting with that in mind.

Happy Thanksgiving,

reply to post by OneisOne

Funny you brought that up schmae. I was just sitting here thinking how weird it was that the news broke this morning about the command center disbanding & not a peep from Baby Lisa's family. No statements, no pleas for info, nothing. And then I thought, what if they are waiting until tomorrow (Thanksgiving) for maxim news effect? That would not surprise me.

That struck me very strange also. I'd be screaming from the tree-tops if my child was missing and the police 'command center' dismantled.

There's a woman here where I live who's daughter was 'take in plain sight' - this was years ago - like 8 years ago. She has NEVER given up. NEVER stopped trying. Always new posters, t-shirts, pleas to the community at large. Her voice is heard. And no one can stop her. God bless her and her daughter, she will NOT give up!

I will say this. If we hear nothing from the family about the news today, then that would pretty much seal it in my mind that they know exactly what happened to Baby Lisa that night.

Sadly, I agree. You're right on in my opinion.

Happy Thanksgiving!
gracie

Very busy today probably like all of us BUT wanted to stop by and say Happy Thanksgiving.
Today I am grateful for a lot but also for all of you on this thread who care so much for a little
precious baby that we never met and know almost nothing about . I am grateful we've spent hours and hours
thinking about her and even arguing with each other over the best way to find her and bring her justice.
I am grateful that she is probably in God's hands this morning in a warm and loving embrace. Let's all spend the day being thankful for those in our life and remembering little Lisa. Your family can change in the blink of an eye so love them while you can !

Here's something to look at.

Pic from this sight: Here

Before I post any more - what do you see in this picture?



The woman who took it thinks she sees a little 'white baby' - she thinks it might be Lisa, or, she's cracking up, on or the other, lol. (Said in kindness).

Take a look at her blog.

I don't see it.

peace

reply to post by silo13

I don't see it either Silo! This is from the same lady that I saw a news report on this morning. She thinks Lisa is at the old Sam's Town location. Citizens are going to search the site on Saturday.

From the YouTube description:

After a tip from a Texas psychic, a group plans to search an area near a defunct Kansas City casino in hopes of finding clues about missing baby Lisa Irwin. KMBC 9's Peggy Breit reports.

Here's the video:


Happy Thanksgiving to all!!!
OiO

reply to post by silo13


Huhh?? Nope, don't see it.
Even went to her site, looked at her other version, and her "map" -- STILL don't see it.

I was just doing some extra searching about Lisa's case, too, and came across some info on the cadaver dog that was used and "hit" in her parent's home.

The handler's name is Martin Grime; the dogs are Eddie and Keela, and they are known internationally and have a spot-on track record.
Cases in which Eddie has been used are Maddie McCann, Kate Prout, and about 200 others.

A sniffer dog called Eddie, which took part in the hunt for missing Madeleine McCann, could not find any trace of her either. (***Blogger note: Eddie found cadaver scent in Prout home. In November 2011, Adrian Prout confessed to murdering Kate.)
..
Senior Investigating Officer Acting Detective Superintendent Neil Kelly said yesterday: "This has been a complex, thorough and necessarily lengthy investigation to bring us to this point.

"I would like to take this opportunity to thank all those affected, especially Mrs Prout's friends and family, for their understanding, tolerance and patience."

eddieandkeela.blogspot.com...

and on another blog here, a commenter said

I believe that FBI Martin Grime with his dog Eddie alerted in the Irwin home, the same dog that picked up on the death of Maddie McCann...the same dog that picked up on the Kate Prout murder. I have some footage Peter if you would like to see the dog, it was the day reporters were asked not to film

McCann is due to speak at the Leveson inquiry on Wednesday, he of course wants money and is hoping for a large payout.

Today, Sky have censored the cadaver dog findings in the Prout murder as police now begin to search for her body, James Murdoch does not want to upset his pal Gerry and he may settle for a smaller payout.

Same handler, same dog has alerted to over 200 cases !

I'm looking for some info on why the reporters are asked not to film (haven't seen anything indicating it was to prevent training techniques, or scent contamination, both of which have been suggested here)...but apparently they are, and not JUST here.

Here's more CV on the dogs:

A video showing Eddie and Keela (two forensic dogs) and their handler ex PC Martin Grime at work in Portugal on the case of Madeleine McCann. The dogs clearly alert to the scent of cadaver and blood on clothing in the hired Renault Scenic and in Apartment 5A where Drs Gerry and Kate McCann stayed with their family in Praia da Luz in May 2007.

Eddie and Keela, two of the most famous dog detectives in Europe used to work for South Yorkshire Police. Eddie and Keela are highly skilled sniffer dogs - technically known as victim recovery dogs - who search for and locate human remains. They have recently worked in Jersey on the Haut de la Garenne case.

The case surrounding the disappearance of Madeleine has been shelved by the Portuguese Policia Judiciara awaiting further evidence.

Now, I think Mr Grime has every right to request his dogs -- his partners -- not be filmed. He is also an instructor, and simply by virtue of his expertise, I think it's reasonable that he wouldn't want amateur "sleuths" watching and then deciding they can teach their dogs to do the same thing, and corrupting the whole K9 police integrity somehow.

It is clearly NOT because he is hiding ineptitude, or shoddy work -- the dogs are internationally regarded as the best, and have their own blog, for crying out loud!,-- and Mr Grime has extensive military experience, canine training leadership experience and expertise that above reproach (to reasonable people).

at GSS International Oxford, United Kingdom | Law Enforcement Current: FBI Forensic Canine program at USA, Director at GSS International, Owner at Forensic Canine Search Consultancy Past: Police Dog Training Instructor at Uk Police, Military at British military Education: UKACPO canine trainer Summary: UKNPIA / FBI Forensic Canine Program expert adviser / consultant.

Martin Grime's LinkedIn profile

Summarizing, from the above outside info,
*Eddie did hit in DB's bedroom,
*Eddie is extremely capable and respected,
*Martin, his handler ditto,
*reporters are asked not to film Eddie in other cases in other countries,
*Grime teaches canine dogs. He's not into "how-to" videos, (and who can blame him?? you wanna learn how? enroll in his course or become a cop first and earn the privelege) or giving away his knowledge.
*no-body cases take a long time, and it can be years before there is sufficient evidence to get charges to stick

reply to post by OneisOne

THANK YOU!
What I'm hearing? This woman believes an accident happened in the home and pinpoints an area to search for Lisa. They'll be doing so and will be going about a search on Saturday.

The waiting goes on! But... At least it's something and at least people are still involved and searching!

Thank you again OIO!

peace

reply to post by wildtimes

You're working overtime! And on a Holiday! Get back to your turkey! LOL

Fabulous information - thank you so much. And really, when these dogs are working? They're working. They deserve respect. They don't deserve being filmed and hounded. Sorry, no pun intended.

Happy T-Day to you!

peace

disregard - im way off.

reply to post by silo13


hey...happy holiday to you, also! I'm thankful that this thread has given us an opportunity to get acquainted, regardless of what a grim situation prompted it.

That info was just while I was drinking coffee and wanting to learn more than we have here so far...
There is also a McCann griped page and some rebuttals and witness statements from Grime...

(I'm on "break"...just spent 3 hours preparing a bunch of appetizers, the recipe for which stated as having a "prep time" of 25 minutes. Ha!! What a LIE!!....now having a smoke break before I finish up the other (MUCH quicker) dish. My mom and aunt are doing the Turkey!)

So...here are the links to some debates about cadaver dogs' reliability. I haven't yet found any objective statistics, but it appears---at first glance---that some experts / court types claimed the dogs aren't well enough trained, and that they also hit on bones, furniture from houses of the deceased, etc.and even try to say they have been shown to be "false" 60% to 70% of the time.

On the other hand, it is fact that some of the purported "false" hits LATER turned up to be ACTUAL hits, and closed cases that had gone "cold," and that Mr Grime was coached before his witness testimony. In a bad way.
Years ago....don't know if trainng had been revamped by now, but certainly Mr Grime is still being hired and consulted -- no question about that fact.

Interesting reading...probably I won't get to talk about it with my family (would be considered in poor taste among some members who flinch at that kind of talk)...so, I'll look forward to checking in to see how our crew here reflects on the matter.

info taken from McCann debate site

Just to elucidate the Marting Grime aspect and the Specialist dogs, Eddie & Keela. When the PJ files were first published and issued to some Journalists in 2008, Grimes was interviewed, "off the record" by a small number of journo's including a good friend and colleague of mine who was , at the time, a sub-editor of a National Sunday newspaper.

Grimes made it very clear that he was unhappy with what he referred to as his "treatment" by authorities unknown, (although he did say they were British), who had coerced him, he says, to "play down" the significance of the dogs' findings. Grimes let it be known that Eddies and Keelas 'scentings' were irrefutable, in his mind, having worked with the dogs successfully on very many cases for the many of the Constabularies in the UK on high profile cases.

Grimes stated that he was "instructed" to ensure that in his subsequently produced report, he was to emphasise that the dog's findings were inadmissable as evidence, (which is of course, true, but he had NEVER been instructed on any other case to point this out), and that they were effectively inconsequential without further corroborative evidence.

Birmingham FSS initially suggested in their reports that recovered material, as indicated in spots by the dogs, DID appear to have significant 'markers', consistent with Madeleine's profile. Of course, that initial report, (like so many initial reports in this case), was subsequently CHANGED!

Re: Interesting from Spudgun re Martin Grimes
aiyoyo on Mon Aug 15, 2011 12:15 pm
.Grimes made it very clear that he was unhappy with what he referred to
as his "treatment" by authorities unknown, (although he did say they
were British), who had coerced him, he says, to "play down" the
significance of the dogs' findings.
Why did Grimes allow himself to be coerced by the British authorities?
It is his professionalism and examplary records of the dogs that he is tampering with ...when he agreed to take heed of authorities coercion.

and

Rebuttal by McCann supporters
Sadly, I don't have time today to carefully read and measure the various controversies regarding these dogs. But these pages may help us to predict what to expect from the attorneys for DB/JI, and from the PA.
We'll see, I guess, how it pans out...eventually.

Happy Thanksgiving, all...back to my appetizers...

reply to post by silo13


She updated her blog and aded a new photo with the area she is talking about highlighted.

Im not seeing what she is seeing. My guess was waaay off.

reply to post by Xcathdra

Yeah, I'm sorry to say I don't see anything either - but - if this will be the protagonist to a new search - I'll not speak against it.
We'll hear more Saturday.

Happy Thanksgiving to you.
gracie

Originally posted by wildtimes



Now, I think Mr Grime has every right to request his dogs -- his partners -- not be filmed. He is also an instructor, and simply by virtue of his expertise, I think it's reasonable that he wouldn't want amateur "sleuths" watching and then deciding they can teach their dogs to do the same thing, and corrupting the whole K9 police integrity somehow.

It is clearly NOT because he is hiding ineptitude, or shoddy work -- the dogs are internationally regarded as the best, and have their own blog, for crying out loud!,-- and Mr Grime has extensive military experience, canine training leadership experience and expertise that above reproach (to reasonable people).

at GSS International Oxford, United Kingdom | Law Enforcement Current: FBI Forensic Canine program at USA, Director at GSS International, Owner at Forensic Canine Search Consultancy Past: Police Dog Training Instructor at Uk Police, Military at British military Education: UKACPO canine trainer Summary: UKNPIA / FBI Forensic Canine Program expert adviser / consultant.

Martin Grime's LinkedIn profile

Summarizing, from the above outside info,
*Eddie did hit in DB's bedroom,
*Eddie is extremely capable and respected,
*Martin, his handler ditto,
*reporters are asked not to film Eddie in other cases in other countries,
*Grime teaches canine dogs. He's not into "how-to" videos, (and who can blame him?? you wanna learn how? enroll in his course or become a cop first and earn the privelege) or giving away his knowledge.
*no-body cases take a long time, and it can be years before there is sufficient evidence to get charges to stick 
 

So perhaps in the same league as Sandra Anderson, who was at one time thought to own the best ever cadaver dog, by law enforcement. Who was extensively used by the FBI, in "high profile" cases, to search for body parts, such as the World Trade Center after the 9/11 attacks! Anderson was profiled on the television show "Unsolved Mysteries" The FBI was so impressed with her that she taught death investigation classes, as well as crime scene preservation classes for law enforcement. Anderson was also internationally known and respected, and was invited to Panama, and Bosnia, to aid in the recovery of body parts.

Yet in April of 2002 a law enforcement officer saw her remove a bone from her boot and "plant" it at a search in Oscoda, Michigan! Anderson then claimed her dog found the bone. This officer had the internal fortitude and guts, and actual respect for the law not to simply accept this action. To not simply accept that the ends justify the means. This led to an extensive investigation of Anderson and concluded in a ten count indictment against Anderson in 2003. Anderson was charged with evidence tampering, obstruction of justice, and lying to investigators! That indictment claimed that Sandra planted evidence in a number of cases in Michigan and Ohio.

So yes, maybe for some of us, FBI status, of expert just isn't enough. There is no question, that the FBI has used planted evidence in the past to convict. Anderson got "caught" by being observed, so perhaps Mr. Grime has learn something from those he follows? Can we add two plus two? The desire not to be watched/observed, and then the refusal to take samples of the carpet.... They found in Sandra Anderson case that many of the "hits" she claimed could not be "linked" to the victims by DNA analyzes, so when one gets creative, it is better to not have actual samples that can later come back to bite you. In Sandra case she used carpet fiber from her home, and her own body fluids to "plant" evidence!

reply to post by silo13


Happy Thanksgiving to you and anyone else who celebrates.

I think I figured out what the blog lady was saying. If I understand it she had a vision. In her vision she states Lisa showed herself. What we are seeing in the picture is not that actual body, but more of an ghostly look for me in this area.

Here is the updated pic where she highlighted the face (the pic below was edited by me with the big red lines). Look at the picture in its entirety and dont zoom in.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by silo13

 

So...here are the links to some debates about cadaver dogs' reliability. I haven't yet found any objective statistics, but it appears---at first glance---that some experts / court types claimed the dogs aren't well enough trained, and that they also hit on bones, furniture from houses of the deceased, etc.and even try to say they have been shown to be "false" 60% to 70% of the time.

Here is a study with statistics, that show in this study 100% false positive results. Explosive and drug sniffing dogs.pdf As a general rule law enforcemen prefers to talk about hits that leads to results. But profiling also leads to results, by concentrating on people likely to be guilty one skews the results. This study was design to highlight the effects of handler belief in K9 "work". None the less it does demostrate a 100% false positive results where the dogs (18 in total over 2 days) indicated "hits" where there were no scents of drugs or explosives... Of course it doesn't validate your position so I do not expect you to accept it. Even if it was review, and published.

On the other hand, it is fact that some of the purported "false" hits LATER turned up to be ACTUAL hits, and closed cases that had gone "cold," and that Mr Grime was coached before his witness testimony. In a bad way.
Years ago....don't know if trainng had been revamped by now, but certainly Mr Grime is still being hired and consulted -- no question about that fact.

Seems like that is at a minimum an acknowledgement that law enforcement is using coercion to get the results law enforcement wants, and expects. I'm sure some people believe the ends justify the means; however, not everyone excepts that belief. It is also enlighting that someone willing to comply with "coaching" (or apparently coercion as he describes it) by anyone is still deem suitable as an expert witness.

Re: Interesting from Spudgun re Martin Grimes
aiyoyo on Mon Aug 15, 2011 12:15 pm
.Grimes made it very clear that he was unhappy with what he referred to
as his "treatment" by authorities unknown, (although he did say they
were British), who had coerced him, he says, to "play down" the
significance of the dogs' findings.
Why did Grimes allow himself to be coerced by the British authorities?
It is his professionalism and examplary records of the dogs that he is tampering with ...when he agreed to take heed of authorities coercion.

Good questions, and yet you suggest that we should simply blindly accept these results, and if we don't you imply it's because of a desire to train our own dogs.

Two claims of cadaver dogs trainers/handlers are cadaver dogs are trained to "only" hit on the scent of decomposing bodies. And cadaver dogs need to be trained weekly (or on going) that means they need a continuous source of dead bodies... In many states it is illegal to posses dead bodies, to chop them up and hide the bits and pieces... Just another example of where law enforcement turns a blind eye to certain laws being bent.... Some handlers more respectful of laws, use a chemical mixture to simulate decomposing bodies, that these handlers are successful with this mixture gives proof that "dead bodies" are NOT the only thing they hit upon.

Sadly, I don't have time today to carefully read and measure the various controversies regarding these dogs.