UK parliament to debate referendum on quitting EU

reply to post by ArMaP

You are probably correct there. Government as it exists today is still required in some form, at least for our society to continue as it is. If all or most of the people did this though there would be nothing to stop them, and the government would essentially cease to function. This would leave our land open and vulnerable to be taken over by force from overseas, and who knows what other madness would ensue, but reclaiming your right to be governed is about becoming a responsible adult and being able to defend your self.
I think it comes down to this, the majority of people in this country are not responsible people and therefore need someone to govern them (just look at the recent riots, do these people look like they are responsible enough to look after themselves?)
At the end of the day the reality is it is too complicated for most people to become sovereign so the majority of people will not. But this does not mean it can be disregarded as a way forward for humanity.

Originally posted by Lynda101
Germany has looked after her manufacturing base, they are even manufacturing trains for Russia. We use to build trains, what happened to this industry and its workers in this country - how come we couldn't even bid for that contract?

The way germany has "looked after her manufacturing" base is by cheating. Subsidies (or similiar..give them a different name and it isn't illegal) have helped a lot and all the other myriad of EU laws which the UK has pretty much followed to the letter, countries like france and Germany didn't. Bet they're pissing themselves with laughter getting us to agree to rules that would weaken us, then watching us actually implement those rules willingly.

About the train contract, a UK company did bid for a recent trains contract from the Government, but under "procurement rules" set by the previous Government, Siemens won the contract over the British firm.

reply to post by stumason


What actually gets to me the most here is that we need to fear our own government's ineptitude to look after our country's interests every bit as much as the EU. Its pretty clear that international corporations have taken over the world and our government, with its politicians who are not guaranteed a job for life either, seem to be cooperating to the detriment of the people here.

I don't know whether in the UK we breed more 'jobsworth's' than any other country who love to do their job with zeal, but the more I see how things are run here I seriously worry there is almost a suicidal attitude towards the survival of this country and its future prospects. With two sons and a tiny grand daughter I worry for their future. The public here know, as you say, France and Germany and probably the others also happily cheat EU rules. They clearly do this because they can't operate within those rules, so why are we signed up to this extra layer of government that is inoperative?

The three major political parties have instructed their MP's to vote against a referendum on continued or modified membership of the EU.
This is regardless of MP's personal conviction or the wishes of their respective constituents.

Repeated polls suggest the British people want the opportunity to discuss and vote on this issue.

If ever anyone needed evidence that the current party political system is NOT representative of the peoples wishes and that we need radical and urgent electoral and parliamentary reform then this surely is it.

Didn't Labour at one stage say we were going to have a referendum on joining the EU ? I can't remember that one happening.
So this is to appease us for a few months until we forget.

Seems to me like the government are hell bent on denying us our right to choose who governs us.

The debate is being brought forward so that Cameron and Hague can attend.
As predicted The Conservative Party are to issue a three line whip.
It is thought that at least 50% of Tory MP's are actually in favour of a referendum but are being forced to vote against their own personal convictions.

Both the Lib-Dems and The Labour Party will also be instructing their MP's to vote against a referendum.

www.bbc.co.uk...

In recent polls it has been estimated that between 75% and 85% of the UK electorate want a referendum on EU membership.

This isn't specifically about EU membership anymore, it is about parliament dictating to the people and denying the majority of people in this country their right to choose.

Originally posted by Freeborn
This isn't specifically about EU membership anymore, it is about parliament dictating to the people and denying the majority of people in this country their right to choose.

And I think that is even more worrying.

Remember when David Cameron was calling for a referendum?



Yet now he's 'ordering' his party to vote against allowing us one. In fact, I received this email from my MP today:

Dear Mr *********,

Thank you for your two emails of 19 October and today concerning the backbench debate that will take place on Monday 24 October, on a motion asking for a referendum for withdrawal from the European Union.

As you will be aware, I am a member of the Government in my capacity as Attorney General. The position of the Government, and, indeed, of the Conservative Party before the last election, has always been that it does not support withdrawal from the EU. The Government, and all its ministers, will accordingly be voting against the resolution if it is put to the vote at the end of the debate.

I fully appreciate that the future of the EU is an important issue. We derive many advantages from membership, and, as the Prime Minister has said, there are also challenges, which the Government is trying to address through a reform process. We do not believe, however, that pulling out of the EU would be in our national interest.

As a minister, I will not be able to speak in the debate. I will, however, try to attend parts of it, and listen to the views expressed, and will have ample opportunity to discuss the issues raised with my backbench colleagues.

I will also ensure that the views that you, and others, have expressed in this matter by contacting me by email are communicated to my relevant frontbench colleagues, including the Prime Minister.

With best wishes,

Yours sincerely

Dominic Grieve

Can the betrayal and deceit be any more obvious? Please make sure everyone you know realises how tyrannical and anti-democratic this Conservative party (and the other 2) are.

reply to post by Cythraul


The thing is, it's about more than whether we stay in the EU, that's pretty much irrelevant and we all have our own opinions on that.
It's about the people of this country having the right to vote for who governs us - the right to the referendum, something the vast majority of the British electorate want, is actually more important than the result of the referendum.

At present the 3 major parties are colluding together to deny us our right to self-determination.

reply to post by Cythraul


Forgot to say, that's a great video - everyone should be made to watch it.

Anyone watching it can clearly see that the man has no morals or scruples whatsoever and has no credebility left at all.

reply to post by Freeborn


I struggle to watch anything where Cameron is speaking. But the whole thing just shows the level of respect our MP's have for the electorate. I want to hear the arguments for and against our relationship with Europe from MP's who are for or against. I want to see who wins the argument politically. I want to see which politicians have our countries best interests at heart, not to be patronised by a political elite, whom seem to think they know whats best. They clearly don't know whats best.

reply to post by Freeborn


Exactly, reminds of another Politician who promised us a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, and when elected back into office, did a U turn on their pledge. And people question why we the public do not trust politicians anymore, nowadays?

That video of Mr Lying Cameron, just proves my point.

And another thing. Before anyone says well write to him or your MP instead of complaining about it on here. Already done that, bought the T shirt. Never received a reply. There is how much they the Politicians care about the people.

This is not a debate about the EU, this is actually a debate on wether people have the right to choose how they live. If there were no criminals in Gov then there would be no debate. On the one hand you have people stating that the people have no right to determine thier own destiny, on the other hand you have people who say yes, people have a right to choose their own destiny.

This debate is wether the human rave should be enslaved or not, that is what the debate boils down to. If the government states we dont have a right to choose our own destiny theb this is tantermount to slavery on a UK scale. Because ther will be some who can do what thy want and others who must do as they are told. This is slavery, plain and simple.

Exactly... the 'theorist' in me can't help but wonder whether these bare-faced lies are a slow, deliberate process of desensitising us to deceit so that we learn to not be outraged by it. When you think about it, it's working. I can't believe David Cameron isn't hanging as we speak.