We never could have thought about anything on our own

Hello ATS, hope you are all having a great weekend! I was thinking again, and had a thought about thoughts.

It was the movie "Avatar" that got my wheels turning on this one. All of the extremely detailed forestry, and the intricate details of the entire film. My thoughts were, that James Cameron couldn't have thought up ALL of those things, those details.

So then I started diving deeper into the topic of thoughts. Now, I know us humans are known to have wild imaginations. I get that. But, it seems dubious to me that we are able to "imagine" something, if we've never seen it with our own eyes, or have been told about it.

Like what about the Very First Thoughts? How could we have ever thought about anything? Now if we were taught, or told about various items used in life, or various items that existed, then we could begin to "imagine" or "re-create" differing variations of said items. Then, we would be able to tell other people about these things. Then they would tell people, and so on and so on....

Take dark matter for example, we don't really know anything about it, or what it's possible of. So how could we ever imagine it, or have thoughts about it.

My point is, no one will ever be able to imagine something they have never seen before. We can't ever have thoughts about something we know not of.

I am looking forward to seeing how people will respond to this. I welcome some critical thought on this subject. Thanks for reading.


Sources:

wikipedia

Dictionary

IMDB

Well, imagination is a wonderous thing, but it feeds on something else. I am a big believer in the concept of the collective unconciousness. I believe that all things share a hive mind. The closer the thoughts are to "our way of thinking" the easier it is to retrieve them; however, on occasion, we have the opportunity to look beyond the norm and see something foreign. The impresion we get of that contributes to creativity.

I have no idea when the original thoughts came about.. In my belief system, we are all part of a sentient universe, so it's been collecting for billions+ years. The original thoughts must have been pretty basic. Or they could have been something like "Oh no. Not Again."

Before there was a wheel, are you suggesting that no one imagined one? What happened to bring us the wheel? Was it merely an accident that once existing as a wheel allowed humans upon seeing the wheel to then imagine a wheel? Before there were rafts and boats there was wood drifting on water. Is it so hard to imagine that someone in the past saw a piece of wood floating on the water and imagined a raft? Based upon this imagination, he built a raft, and once successfully so, rode the sea. Is it so hard to imagine that someone saw, or experienced themselves this raft and then imagined a boat?

What of the automobile? Before there was an automobile, how did those responsible for the creation of automobiles imagine one? The Wright Brothers and their airplane? How did this get built without their imaginations? The flying buttress? How the heck did this marvel of architectural structure come about without imagination?

I can imagine things never seen before. Inventions are things imagined and then brought to life. There is always a first time for everything.

reply to post by sirhc0329


i would say a team of very hard working artists came up with most of the things you see in the film. Im sure the director had a hand in alot of the ideas and designs but dont count the concept artists out of the equation is all...

reply to post by sirhc0329


Did you know that with just six 8-stud LEGO bricks you can build over 102 million combinations!

......imagination is like that but different.

Peace

Originally posted by sirhc0329
We never could have thought about anything on our own

This is a teleological question,
and like most teleological questions
agreeing with it is usually self defined.

I think the real test is, "has anyone ever
asked that question before." And not only
is the answer yes, but there have been so many
philisophical inquiries into weather we could have
thought aobut anything on our own, that there is a
category for these types of questions. It's called a
teleological argument. For instance one Greek Philosopher
posited that _all_ learning is remembering.


David Grouchy

A teleological argument, or argument from design,[1][2][3] attributes the existence of order and direction in nature to some kind of purpose, thereby essentially proving the existence of God.

Wiki: Teleological argument

I don't agree with your underlying premis. If we are not able to have unique immaginative thoughts, how then are we able to design things? I am looking at my guitar over there. Someone must have immagined it, drawn it, and then made it - it started with a thought. It did not exists until it was made, but it was drawn up and designed. So we can very much immagine and think about things which have never existed.

reply to post by Shamatt


All I am saying is that if you've never seen or heard about something, how would you know it existed? Therefore, how could you imagine or think of it?

As far as the wright brothers and different "inventors," the airplane more than likely is an expansion or variance of a previous invention. As with other modern inventions, we are merely making old things better, more efficient.

Maybe the great inventors through time, have had a "vision" or "dream" about their next invention. And I lean towards that actually being "tapping into" the collective unconscious.

Or maybe channeling?

But either way, how can something completely new, not an enhancement or alteration of something already created, be thought of if it's not known to exist?

Sirhcld things better, more efficient.

Maybe the great inventors through time, have had a "vision" or "dream" about their next invention. And I lean towards that actually being "tapping into" the collective unconscious.

Or maybe channeling?

But either way, how can something completely new, not an enhancement or alteration of something already created, be thought of if it's not known to exist?

Sirhc

reply to post by sirhc0329


Break it down to simple terms. Say I have only ever experienced two things, a tree and a rock. Now I can imagine a tree growing rocks or a rock growing like a tree. Both are absolutly original and never been seen by me yet I can imagine them...

Peace

I believe that we learn from whats already been taught and then we expand on ideas that become novelty. But something had to start the original thought and consciousness, i believe is the catalyst of this. Universal consciousness in my opinion is what started the big bang and fractioned down as time expanded to create limited conscious beings. Only to learn about are true nature, so we can make it back to universal conciousness!

Yes he's so creative.

reply to post by operation mindcrime


You are correct. But had you never been shown said rock and said tree, you would never have thought of either one. Or of them growing out of each other.

The human race HAD to have been aided in the beginning. Im talking the VERY VERY beginning. Where did the original thoughts come from? That is what I would like to know.
Peace

reply to post by Mcupobob


As I said in the OP....the creativity of the movie only jumpstarted the following thoughts. That pic cracks me up....cat + this dude= avatar main character. flower + gorilla = weird crazy looking creature from another planet... hahahaha's

reply to post by sirhc0329


We've had some 50 years to pass between Plan 9 From Outter Space to Avatar so there has been some time for imaginations to grow a bit and media tecnique to develop.

If perhaps you are suggesting there has to be at least some ounce of truth to all ideas we come up with then sure, I believe everything I see in the movies.

reply to post by sirhc0329


I suppose we need to differentiate between "think about" and "Immagine".

I agree you can't think about something which does not exist. But I can immagine it.

So an inventor can immagine a new object which doe not exists and then create it. Musician can write new original music the same way. A Designer can design something never seen before.

If what you are saying is true we would never have invented anything, not being able to "think about "it because it does not exists yet - which is a catch 22, is it not?

reply to post by Shamatt


hay, thanks for the reply. I'm not sure if I'm explaining myself correctly. All I really meant, is that, we (humans) can't "think up" or even "imagine" things that have yet to be discovered. How would it be possible to even have a "visual" of something, if it's not known by humans to even exist in any form. Sure we can imagine different variations of already known things....BUT, in the very beginning...the very very beginning, do you think those humans could have thought up an f-15 fighter jet, or an iPad? Of course not.

Through progression and learning and the collective subconscious, we have made it to where we are today. But I don't think anyone could ever imagine what something from another dimension would look like. It's impossible. We've Never known it to exist.

I hope thats a better explanation. I still don't feel like I'm saying it right.

reply to post by sirhc0329


Don't worry I get you. I think what your are saying is in order to dream up something new you have to follow something already known. Like the boat example, someone else posted above. If someone saw a piece of wood floating on the water and dreamed up the concept of the boat, that is understandable. However, if they did not know what wood was, where it came from, what water was, or what floating was, then they could have never made the boat. It would take them some time to test the waters and figure this stuff out before understanding that wood could be harvested and that water was safe.

I think what you are referring to is sort of like a shared knowledge of humanity. Things that we take for granted, because they are well known, could not have been invented 2000 years prior. Why? Simply because there was nothing to connect the dots with.

Humanity is like an ever growing more intelligent cesspool of thought. Things learned and passed along become second nature and the more things are invented, the easier it is to see the next step.

I think the trick is to skip all the steps and jump right to what we actually want. It is possible to invent something and never build it. In essence, we could invent something hypothetically, then extrapolate on that invention to come up with the next invention following that. When we get to the ideal point in our thinking we simply invent what we want, having skipped all the unnecessary steps of evolution.