Are Criminals Ever Forgiven?

Originally posted by predator0187
reply to post by gabby2011

 

Not only that, but most child molesters were molested themselves so they are just continuing what they know and how they were raised. They are a product of society that we have yet to figure out how they work, and that's why rehabilitation is hard in these situations.

Anyways, this isn't just about what crime you were convicted of, it is the ramifications of society when you get out, after you served your time, and the fact that people cannot be accepted after they have paid their time.

Pred...

I understand what you are saying...and it is sad, but yet..the way the world is today.. you can be unaccepted for the clothes you wear in your community....or the car you drive..so it isn't a very welcoming world ..even for those that are not struggling to let go of a criminal past.

Some people don't accept others because a family member may be a criminal, some people think you're a criminal because of the color of your skin, or the religion you practice. ...lets face it its a prejudiced and judgmental world, and it goes far beyond criminal behavior.

Some of it is based on silly fears, brought on my misinformation, and there is a whole myriad of other reasons, some of which can be logically understood.

Lets face it, many criminals have re-offended, and depending on the crime, the price for someone to pay when they become victims again, or for one of their loved ones to have the unfortunate reality of being victimized again..you can understand the caution, and the fear.

Its a really interesting question pred, and there are so many variables to weigh in when you try to find the answer.

I like to think , that people make mistakes.. or they just don't think some things are as seriously criminal as others might..(take pot smoking for one example), and they have been dealt bad situation, at times in their life and they have reacted with emotion instead of reasoning, as many humans might, and end up killing someone, as a result.

I think there are far worse criminals, in my opinion, that have never had a criminal record, and are considered respectable people of society...than many of the people who have criminal records.

I would like to believe that all humans have the capacity to be good, and can change..and need to be encouraged in that way...yet my common sense tells me that they have to earn that trust back as well, over time, by good behavior.

I do feel badly for many people who get stigmatized by their criminal past though.

Originally posted by predator0187
reply to post by gabby2011

 

Not only that, but most child molesters were molested themselves so they are just continuing what they know and how they were raised. They are a product of society that we have yet to figure out how they work, and that's why rehabilitation is hard in these situations.

Anyways, this isn't just about what crime you were convicted of, it is the ramifications of society when you get out, after you served your time, and the fact that people cannot be accepted after they have paid their time.

Pred...

For me, I can understand when society has a hard time "forgiving" those who have committed a crime that in some way has injured an innocent party. The silly crimes of possession of small amounts of smoke, are easy to overlook. The big ones, as mentioned in the OP and by others, get a little foggy. The neighbor you have known for 10 years, sexually assaults your 7 year old daughter or son. This person is convicted and sent to prison to serve their time. They do so and are considered a "model" prisoner, and are released and placed on parole.

While this person is in prison, your child is growing up and having a difficult time living with what this neighbor did to them. Counseling and therapy just aren't working. Their whole outlook on life has changed, and not for the better. On your child's 13th birthday, you awake to find your child hanging in the bathroom. It's too late, nothing can be done to save your child. After this tragedy, the former model prisoner has served their jail time, completed parole, and is one of the lucky ones who found a good job, and is trying to make something of his life.

You run across this person somewhere, and they ask you to forgive them. Can you honestly say they deserve forgiveness and to be accepted by society? Me, I would be in prison myself shortly after this encounter, as would most.

reply to post by retiredTxn


I hear you. But, what benefit would that be, if your child was dead, you killed the guy and then you died in jail from a life sentence?

The difference between you and him, would be that he was a sociopath entering into the crime he committed, not thinking of the consequences of his actions, while you damn well know you killed him, devastated his family, ruined your life and hurt your family as well.

Doesn't that make you worse? I mean you would know what your entering into, while he could claim ignorance.

Not to say I wouldn't do the same, but, what does that say about me?

Pred...

reply to post by DarthMuerte


I have some proof for you. I have a friend that was 14 years old and diddled a 13 year old. He now has to register as a sex offender for life, and cannot obtain a job or keep one long enough before the employer finds out and fires him. He has to live in the ghetto, collect every type of social service available, all because we apply broad labels to sex offenders. I think there is a huge difference between a 14 year old touching someone and a 40 year old touching someone. My friend should be given another chance, he has lived 25 years and never has done such a thing since that one time occurrence. His life is nearly destroyed forever. The question we must ask ourselves is why are we as a society think sexual contact is the worst form of a crime, without regard to the circumstance. If my friend had nearly murdered someone, he would not be branded a sicko for life. He could have held someone at gun point threatening their life, pistol wiping them and tying them up, and he would be back on the streets without a label that brands him forever.

Instead, he did what many of have done at a young age. Experiment. He just happened to do it against someone who felt "dirty" afterwards and told their parents who overreacted.

Originally posted by ExPostFacto
reply to post by DarthMuerte

 

I have some proof for you. I have a friend that was 14 years old and diddled a 13 year old. He now has to register as a sex offender for life, and cannot obtain a job or keep one long enough before the employer finds out and fires him. He has to live in the ghetto, collect every type of social service available, all because we apply broad labels to sex offenders. I think there is a huge difference between a 14 year old touching someone and a 40 year old touching someone. My friend should be given another chance, he has lived 25 years and never has done such a thing since that one time occurrence. His life is nearly destroyed forever. The question we must ask ourselves is why are we as a society think sexual contact is the worst form of a crime, without regard to the circumstance. If my friend had nearly murdered someone, he would not be branded a sicko for life. He could have held someone at gun point threatening their life, pistol wiping them and tying them up, and he would be back on the streets without a label that brands him forever.

Instead, he did what many of have done at a young age. Experiment. He just happened to do it against someone who felt "dirty" afterwards and told their parents who overreacted.

Absolutely...that is a very good example..that's basically two normal hormonal teenagers.. and there is no friggin way he should have the sex offender title over his head.

That bites..and really needs to be reviewed..

Criminal's are forgiven by the great spirit but not by man. Man made laws are crazy insane ideas made up by a sick society. In the case of Great Britain we have Disclosures if you want to gain employment, what this means is that if in some cases you committed a crime years ago it is still on your record, no forgiveness, the rest of your life is down the swanny. No man is pure enough to judge, no man!!!

reply to post by predator0187


Chances are I wouldn't die in jail serving a life sentence. Being a grieving parent, mourning the loss of my child, only to have this yahoo approach me and have the audacity to beg forgiveness, sends me into a blind rage. I have no idea what has happened until hours later when I finally come to my senses. There's not a jury in Texas that would convict me.

No, it doesn't make me worse. I have no idea what I have done, and he most likely knew very well what he had done. For him to claim ignorance is ludicrous. He had to plan his actions, and that one thing shows malice of forethought. Any attempt to cover his crime(s) shows knowledge that a crime has been committed.

There are times when people commit crimes and they are justified, or at least society can understand how the crime came about. Sociopath or not, he may have not thought about the consequences, or he might have just not cared. Forgiveness is between an individual and whatever higher power they subscribe to. Not the person(s) who are your victims.

reply to post by ExPostFacto

I would not consider him a child molester. If he is, then that makes me one also. I was having sex at 15 with girls 14-17. Does that make the 17 year old girl a child molester? When I was 19, my girl friend was 17. We were both in college, but she was 17. Child molester? Not in my mind. A child molester is someone who has sex with a prepubescent child. Boy or girl is irrelevant. In my mind, after puberty it is then rape or something. That being said, if it is some 30 year old dude having sex with a 13 or 14 year old. He is still a pretty sick individual.

reply to post by DarthMuerte


No you would not be a child molester, but many years ago what you were doing could have given you the title of sex offender. About 10 years ago they changed many state laws to include an age difference between victim and offender. If your girlfriend was 17 and you were 19, age of consent would apply depending on which state you lived in. When you were 15 and touching a 14 yo, you could have definitely been arrested back in the day. Fortunately, laws have changed to account for teenage experimentation. However, those laws were not passed until after my friend got the hammer. And then they passed a law where he could not get his record sealed like most juveniles can. So he is a sicko for life in the eyes of society and never forgiven.

The problem is many parents go straight to the police because their innocent teenage daughter couldn't have possibly consented to such conduct as sex with a boy. Unfortunately males are easy targets for overreaction by the police in these matters.

I forgive criminals. In fact, I have in my head the idea of visiting criminals in prison and supporting their return to society. If no one cares about criminals, how can they ever be rehabilitated?

reply to post by gabby2011


I'm quite familiar with Cathy O'Brien. When I'm speaking of people who enjoy beastiality, I'm only talking about those who willingly have sex with animals and not those who are forced to. I don't believe that Cathy O'Brien was brainwashed into LIKING beastiality and please don't believe that this is what her programming was about. Beta programming uses beastialty to fracture the core personality as well as create a personality that willingly acts like a kitten because sick perverts want a little girl who is going to be rubbing up against them. THESE are the disgusting people I'm speaking about. Not the ones who are forced into it. Just as I wouldn't consider the victims of pedophiles to be worthless, I wouldn't consider victims of mind control tactics in this light either.

And as far as Vick, he had enough money to purchase a boxer. These men and women willingly enter fights and know they're being bet on. Vick is scum and should not have been allowed back on the field -- even as a coach.

We all make choices in life and ignorance of the law is no excuse. Just as people choose to commit a crime, it is one's own choice to forgive them or not. I could never stomach killing something or watching it be killed. Vick has this ability and I'll always view him as the equivalent of the insides of a septic tank because of this.

Originally posted by Afterthought
reply to post by gabby2011

 

I'm quite familiar with Cathy O'Brien. When I'm speaking of people who enjoy beastiality, I'm only talking about those who willingly have sex with animals and not those who are forced to. I don't believe that Cathy O'Brien was brainwashed into LIKING beastiality and please don't believe that this is what her programming was about. Beta programming uses beastialty to fracture the core personality as well as create a personality that willingly acts like a kitten because sick perverts want a little girl who is going to be rubbing up against them. THESE are the disgusting people I'm speaking about. Not the ones who are forced into it. Just as I wouldn't consider the victims of pedophiles to be worthless, I wouldn't consider victims of mind control tactics in this light either.

And as far as Vick, he had enough money to purchase a boxer. These men and women willingly enter fights and know they're being bet on. Vick is scum and should not have been allowed back on the field -- even as a coach.

We all make choices in life and ignorance of the law is no excuse. Just as people choose to commit a crime, it is one's own choice to forgive them or not. I could never stomach killing something or watching it be killed. Vick has this ability and I'll always view him as the equivalent of the insides of a septic tank because of this.

edit on 26-9-2011 by Afterthought because: (no reason given)

edit on 26-9-2011 by Afterthought because: (no reason given)

Thank you for clarifying what you meant..

IMO, "Hard Crimes" (Murder, Rape, other extremely violent behavior) should be dealt with correctional facilities. Crimes of poverty (selling drugs, theft, certain cases of violence, certain cases of fraud etc.) should be dealt with rehabilitation and state funded programs to ensure that people don't feel the need to commit those crimes. People who commit crimes of poverty should also not have a permanent criminal record, this is the very thing holding them back from holding a legal job that will keep them from committing more crime!

Crimes committed by people who don't need to commit crime (the wealthy, middle class) should be taken seriously when they do commit a crime. Especially the wealthy - ironically our justice system let's people with the most money get a slap on the wrist. It should be exactly the opposite.

reply to post by UnitedSpiritualAlliance

Crimes committed by people who don't need to commit crime (the wealthy, middle class) should be taken seriously when they do commit a crime. Especially the wealthy - ironically our justice system let's people with the most money get a slap on the wrist. It should be exactly the opposite.

Sometimes they don't even get a slap on the wrist..and they have done the most horrific crimes ... plus they expect us to respect them... as well as pay costs for setting up their dirty work.

Yeah..its a really screwed up world as far as acknowledgement and punishment of the real serious criminals .

Really liked your whole post by the way....some good thoughts , and great suggestions.

Some criminals certainly are forgiven, like Marion Barry who managed to get re-elected even after serving jail time. Others should never bet let back into society under any circumstances such as the previously mentioned child molesters, serial killers and rapists. In the case of those who commit crimes against children of a sexual nature its been proven time and time again that they will commit the crime again, it might not be right away but eventually they slip and are back to their old ways.

Murder is a tricky one because people get charged with murder for things like crimes of passion, killing someone during a robbery, vehicular manslaughter and so on. Some are simple bad choices like driving drunk which leads to the death of another, in the case of crimes of passion its a moment of irrationality that leaves you marked for life. Then you have the sadistic flavor of killer like Dennis Rader for example who is undoubtedly not mentally stable and in all likelihood would return to killing if released back into society. The serial killer obviously shouldn't be forgiven and returned to the fold because they pose a very serious risk of recidivism, however the husband who shoots the man he catches in bed with his wife or the person to drives drunk are in a completely different group of killers, they had momentary lapses that lead to their taking of a life and quite possibly could be sorry for their actions and capable of change, but not everyone can be of that quality.

Originally posted by Helig
Some criminals certainly are forgiven, like Marion Barry who managed to get re-elected even after serving jail time. Others should never bet let back into society under any circumstances such as the previously mentioned child molesters, serial killers and rapists. In the case of those who commit crimes against children of a sexual nature its been proven time and time again that they will commit the crime again, it might not be right away but eventually they slip and are back to their old ways.

Murder is a tricky one because people get charged with murder for things like crimes of passion, killing someone during a robbery, vehicular manslaughter and so on. Some are simple bad choices like driving drunk which leads to the death of another, in the case of crimes of passion its a moment of irrationality that leaves you marked for life. Then you have the sadistic flavor of killer like Dennis Rader for example who is undoubtedly not mentally stable and in all likelihood would return to killing if released back into society. The serial killer obviously shouldn't be forgiven and returned to the fold because they pose a very serious risk of recidivism, however the husband who shoots the man he catches in bed with his wife or the person to drives drunk are in a completely different group of killers, they had momentary lapses that lead to their taking of a life and quite possibly could be sorry for their actions and capable of change, but not everyone can be of that quality.

How do you feel about those who perform acts of human sacrifice..perhaps on a huge scale, or crimes of genocide....

How do you feel those types should be dealt with?

reply to post by gabby2011


I'm pretty sure that one is pretty clear cut, a "person" (and I'm using the term lightly here) who would dispatch 100s of people or more in genocide generally only can contribute by providing maggots with a lunch. Human sacrifice is fairly rare in the modern world so honestly I'm not sure how that one can be approached because on one hand you have to address the possibility that the sacrifice themselves is a willing participant and contrast that against the taking of a life outside of the scope of justifiable use of deadly force or otherwise sanctioned and permitted killing.