NY state bar report on supermax prisons in the US is out : it's basically torture

reply to post by Kingbreaker


Yes but is that not a failure of the system to even try to rehab him?

In the US we seem to focus on punishing the crime as opposed to rehabilitation which is the stated goal of our correctional system.

It seems the war on drugs has been a great detriment to the cause of Rehabbing inmates as the prisons fill it becomes more important to contain and punish than to educate and reform.

I think these prisoners need more elbow room. More room to spread out. But that's expensive, and nobody wants to build big, new prisons in the U.S.

That's why I am 100 percent behind the idea that we should outsource our prisons to Russia, and have them go to Siberia in facilities under U.S. supervision. You wouldn't even have to build walls. You just put them in a barracks and feed them and let them do whatever they want (except go home). It would cost pennies a day, satisfy the NIMBY crowd, and we wouldn't just be breeding a generation of professional criminals. They would have little or no contact with their people here, so it wouldn't be punishment as much as it would be removing these people from an environment where crime is a rational career choice.

I think it might motivate people to not do crime.

Originally posted by benrl
In the US we seem to focus on punishing the crime as opposed to rehabilitation which is the stated goal of our correctional system.

Back when there were fewer people living in close-knit communities, the Penn System might have been a workable option. But not any more. And certainly not since more enlightened studies have shown that crime is not necessarily the result of people being "bad" or "dysfunctional," either mentally or socially. The whole notion that somebody needs to be rehabilitated assumes that there is something wrong with the criminal that can be fixed. The truth is, however, that more often than not people rationally choose crime as a viable alternative to more legitimate ways of making a living. Why deliver newspapers when you can make 100 times more money delivering crack? They're just responding to market pressures and utilizing the skill sets they recognize they have. There's nothing crazy about that. It's smart. It's not the criminal that needs rehabilitating, it's society.

That being said, society still has certain behaviors and activities they determine are not in the common good. And in an effort to curtail those activities, they will try to make choosing those behaviors more expensive than they are worth. Prison is a legitimate way of doing that. Unfortunately, criminals are still going to risk of prison for a potentially big payoff. It's a rational thing to do.

But really, the number one thing that can be done to reduce prisons almost to the point of extinction is legalize and administrate drugs. That will take care of about 90 percent of the reasons we have such crap prisons. Hell, give drugs away for free and turn the prisons into hospitals. Take away the financial and social reasons why people would choose crime, and make the responsibility theirs, not the rest of society's.

Just some ideas.

Originally posted by Vitchilo
but they are HUMAN BEINGS.

Not all of them can be classified as such. Setting aside the cases where an innocent person has been incarcerated, a majority of the sub-humans in supermax prisons have not only committed atrocities so heinous that they cannot be allowed to live in society, they continue to act out on their fellow inmates, some of which are in prison for relatively minor non-violent offenses. Supermax prisons are for those that can't seem to grasp the sanctity of human life.

If we can't execute them, we have to subjugate them. One or the other...pick one.

/TOA

reply to post by kn0wh0w


Ask yourself ...Why are they sent to super-max??? Some are there for their own protection (ie. former corrections officer, police, child sex offenders)
Some are there cause they are leaders of a violent gang or renounced their gang affiliation.
Others are there due to their aggressive nature ( hitting, spitting, throwing excrement on officers or other inmates, history of taking hostages or trying to escape.) So what are prison supposed to do let them in general population towhere they have easier access to hurt or kill officers and other offenders.
How about they just let them out...I am sure there is a vacant house next to yours for them to stay.....
Life is not all roses and popcorn. WAKE UP

Lets say you don't bother showing up for your 30 day jail sentence in the US (for a minor driving charge), down goes the gavel and you get 3 years in prison and a felony.

There goes another previously productive citizen that now we have to feed and such thanks to the geniuses running the judicial system, hope he kissed his wife and kids beforehand. Oh and don't worry about driving to work for a while, you won't ever be getting a job again... or a license. Guess we are going to have to commit economic suicide even more and throw em on welfare.

It's stupid and irresponsible. You would think even idiots could put two and two together, but no lets drive what our ancestors worked for into the ground.

It is my opinion that all forms of incarceration, no matter of the security, are torture. I find that locking any grown man or woman in a cage is cruel and unusual. That's exactly what jails and prisons do. They take grown adult persons, lock them in a cage, and make them less then animals. This is because people believe that those who are deemed unfit for society should be punished. I think this is illogical and pointless. While punishment may inspire discipline in children, grown men and women simply cannot be influenced by punishment from their peers. It just doesn't work. Some adults may learn that if they are caught doing certain crimes or unpleasant acts bad things will happen, and thus they either cut down on the acts or learn to hide them. This only provides a false sense of civility and discipline in them. As any wise man would say, true discipline comes from within.
I, however, don't believe in that hippie bs that believes that all we have to do is spread the love, or what ever, and we can teach them to not be bad, or worse that we don't have the right to stop them. This is not how the world works. There are "bad" people amongst us, and their crimes and all around ill deeds are detrimental to our society. I say that if anyone is deemed unfit for society, because of murder, rape, thievery, and so on, they should be put out of their misery, on the spot, once their guilt is proven. We should do this not out of punishment, but out of mercy and a desire to better our society. However, I do believe that once we stop wasting all this money and man power on caging and punishing criminals, we can focus on educating and providing opportunity to those that may find certain crimes necessary for survival. Also, there are a lot of laws that should be put up for logical and open debates

Originally posted by RSF77
Lets say you don't bother showing up for your 30 day jail sentence in the US (for a minor driving charge), down goes the gavel and you get 3 years in prison and a felony.

There goes another previously productive citizen that now we have to feed and such thanks to the geniuses running the judicial system, hope he kissed his wife and kids beforehand. Oh and don't worry about driving to work for a while, you won't ever be getting a job again... or a license. Guess we are going to have to commit economic suicide even more and throw em on welfare.

It's stupid and irresponsible. You would think even idiots could put two and two together, but no lets drive what our ancestors worked for into the ground.

You couldn't be more wrong on this. For one prisons are run for profit now some are even on the stock exchange also some prisons grow their own food and eat better than the people on the out side. When my brother got out of prison he had a job in two weeks because they get tax breaks for hiring ex cons it's part of rehabilitation. Most of the time the probation officer will have a job waiting for them. And getting his license was no problem either the only way they have a problem is if their crime was vehicle related like killing someone while drunk.

Originally posted by buster2010

Originally posted by RSF77
Lets say you don't bother showing up for your 30 day jail sentence in the US (for a minor driving charge), down goes the gavel and you get 3 years in prison and a felony.

There goes another previously productive citizen that now we have to feed and such thanks to the geniuses running the judicial system, hope he kissed his wife and kids beforehand. Oh and don't worry about driving to work for a while, you won't ever be getting a job again... or a license. Guess we are going to have to commit economic suicide even more and throw em on welfare.

It's stupid and irresponsible. You would think even idiots could put two and two together, but no lets drive what our ancestors worked for into the ground.

You couldn't be more wrong on this. For one prisons are run for profit now some are even on the stock exchange also some prisons grow their own food and eat better than the people on the out side. When my brother got out of prison he had a job in two weeks because they get tax breaks for hiring ex cons it's part of rehabilitation. Most of the time the probation officer will have a job waiting for them. And getting his license was no problem either the only way they have a problem is if their crime was vehicle related like killing someone while drunk.

I don't understand how I could be wrong when it happened to my own damn father.

What you said is not true in rural middle America, at least where I'm at. You get a felony, your screwed for life if you care anything about your "right to prosper", and as anyone can probably guess they hand out felonies like candy.

There is a lot more consideration to be put in having a felony when you own a business.

And I don't care what you can grow in a prison or what kind of nice pillow you have to sleep on, you don't incarcerate the innocent. Oh wait, this happened to the jews before didn't it? Just a lot faster.

This of course depends on my own definition of "innocent".

I guess so I don't get too off topic, I will say that I think it is torture keeping someone locked in a windowless cell for 23 hours a day. I agree with the other fella (the guy with the good gun story I think) that hell if you are going to do that to someone, might as well end their misery. There is no reason to torture someone for life if only for sacrificing tax payers money.

But the rate of locking up people for stupid # (i.e. victimless crimes and the like) needs to seriously decline. The US Gov has succeeded in selecting out, alienating and locking up the "rebellious" demographic of males, the ones that in countries like oh... say... Libya or Syria, are free.

There is a stockpile of Americas most hardcore and intelligent people locked up in cells.

I don't often refer to the cinema when waxing philosophical. However...

....Silence of the Lambs was a philosophical gem. Hannibal Lector, no doubt a horrible man with horrible crimes, still seems to retain that one piece of dignity, grace, and charm. He is a man with obvious value, who belongs in this world, despite his propensity for grandiose schematic evil.

Is humanity better off completely without such people? People who, while able to do some horrid things, still have a perspective? And potential for eloquence?

Of course, if you would not be willing to "put down" such eloquence, then you would have to take all in similar consideration. "All men are created equal" is important.

I live in a rural town there is a city right next to me that has legalized under 3/4 of an ounce of grass it's just a plant I know farmers who can make a better living of of growing grass than food. Now I'm not leaning one way or the other but I will say that they have no drug problems other than meth which is chemicals mixed together so why would you want to put that in your body. When it is the only way to survive, and not be in debt in rural areas, there is something totally wrong with some laws. By the way if you get caught with a grow field it's a 6-30 year sentence per one hundred pounds so like ten plants. Now imagine the 147,000 they found last year. That's Super-Maximum Security worthy, feeding your family and all.