How would Afghanistan under communism would be like?

Originally posted by ThePublicEnemyNo1
Thanks for providing the link while in my thread

This is an interesting thread you got here. I'll chime in later. But without giving your question much thought, Communism may have worked better in Afghanistan, but as Slayer69 pointed out we will never know. Then again, it's a no win situation unless Afghanistan, as a whole works with its citizens to find viable solutions to their problems. However, I really need to give this more thought.

I'm gonna go check out some of Slayer69's reading suggestions first.

ETA
Personally, I'm one of those people who feel like unless a country is "TRULY" a threat to the rest of world, we the USA, should keep our noses out of other people's business when it doesn't concern us.

edit on 9/5/11 by ThePublicEnemyNo1 because: (no reason given)

Like i said earlier, this isn't about keeping the nose out or now. can you imagine how much it would flourish had it been under communism? LOL I also read that the People's Republic of China even supported the Afghans against the USSR. I wonder why.....

Originally posted by Paulioetc15

Originally posted by ThePublicEnemyNo1
Thanks for providing the link while in my thread

This is an interesting thread you got here. I'll chime in later. But without giving your question much thought, Communism may have worked better in Afghanistan, but as Slayer69 pointed out we will never know. Then again, it's a no win situation unless Afghanistan, as a whole works with its citizens to find viable solutions to their problems. However, I really need to give this more thought.

I'm gonna go check out some of Slayer69's reading suggestions first.

ETA
Personally, I'm one of those people who feel like unless a country is "TRULY" a threat to the rest of world, we the USA, should keep our noses out of other people's business when it doesn't concern us.

edit on 9/5/11 by ThePublicEnemyNo1 because: (no reason given)

Like i said earlier, this isn't about keeping the nose out or now. can you imagine how much it would flourish had it been under communism? LOL I also read that the People's Republic of China even supported the Afghans against the USSR. I wonder why.....

You do have a point there. Afghanistan, may have been better off now, if under Communism rule imo, but all we can do is speculate. Things don't seem to be going any better now, that's for sure.

I don't think that Russia ever intended to stick around and make the lives of the people of Afghanistan whole either had they won. So that's something to think about.

reply to post by Unvarnished


But is that turmoil the result of modernity finally reaching them, as such turmoil has met all nations that it reaches, or is that turmoil the collapse of a civilization and the decay into something more primitive?


From what I see it is the first. And for that reason, I see no reason why I should view such turmoil as a bad thing. Such is the birth pangs into better.

Originally posted by ThePublicEnemyNo1

Originally posted by Paulioetc15

Originally posted by ThePublicEnemyNo1
Thanks for providing the link while in my thread

This is an interesting thread you got here. I'll chime in later. But without giving your question much thought, Communism may have worked better in Afghanistan, but as Slayer69 pointed out we will never know. Then again, it's a no win situation unless Afghanistan, as a whole works with its citizens to find viable solutions to their problems. However, I really need to give this more thought.

I'm gonna go check out some of Slayer69's reading suggestions first.

ETA
Personally, I'm one of those people who feel like unless a country is "TRULY" a threat to the rest of world, we the USA, should keep our noses out of other people's business when it doesn't concern us.

edit on 9/5/11 by ThePublicEnemyNo1 because: (no reason given)

Like i said earlier, this isn't about keeping the nose out or now. can you imagine how much it would flourish had it been under communism? LOL I also read that the People's Republic of China even supported the Afghans against the USSR. I wonder why.....

You do have a point there. Afghanistan, may have been better off now, if under Communism rule imo, but all we can do is speculate. Things don't seem to be going any better now, that's for sure.

I don't think that Russia ever intended to stick around and make the lives of the people of Afghanistan whole either had they won. So that's something to think about.

That's true for the most part. The biggest mistake was the USSR invasion of Afghanistan. It was one of the reasons why the USSR falled down a lot. I could go on and go on. But it would be like Eastern Europe. I think most Afghans don't like the USSR as much as the US prescene in Afghanistan 2001-2011.

reply to post by Gorman91


BTW why does it seem like the People's Republic of China supported the Afghans?

Everyone would have an equal amount of heroin to shoot up.

Originally posted by MysticPearl
Everyone would have an equal amount of heroin to shoot up.

Not so, I dont communism everyone would like that.

Afghanistan with any form of centralized government is likely to be embroiled in internal turmoil. Not to mention its geostrategic position in the crossroads of Asia and the Middle East. However it is important to remember that Afghanistan used to be peaceful and the centre for modernity in the 60's. No joke.

reply to post by SLAYER69

The Ordinary people were the oppressed. The ordinary people wanted both Freedom of speech [which was denied them] and some wanted freedom of religion. Be it Christianity, Judaism, Islamic faith or what have you. [which were extremely scrutinized and were considered subversives so technically a threat to the state]

I am not counting religious extremists among ordinary people (whatever their numbers in population), those deserve some oppression. Nor am I idealizing communist rule in any way, but considering the alternative of Taliban rule, it is a lesser evil, IMHO.

Originally posted by SpeachM1litant
Afghanistan with any form of centralized government is likely to be embroiled in internal turmoil. Not to mention its geostrategic position in the crossroads of Asia and the Middle East. However it is important to remember that Afghanistan used to be peaceful and the centre for modernity in the 60's. No joke.

Even though it's true, Afghanistan had and always been an unstable nation. Heke even some Western Influence, it would not work. At that time radical Islamic people took over and imposed isalmic laws in 1970s, that's what ruined everything.

Heck, i don't think communism would allow homosexuals to be jailed for five years because of their sexuality. Would it?

reply to post by Paulioetc15


I'm not really aware of any Afgan-Sino relationship these days.

reply to post by Gorman91


I mean can you imagine what's like under communism in Afghanistan? I guess it would result in political torture of 10,000 prisoners.

reply to post by Paulioetc15


Well China isn't really communist. They're essentially a continuation of Confucius ideals, currently communistic in name only.

Afghanistan under communist rule would probably look like any number of other former soviet states. I imagine it would probably be more civilized because religion would have been purged. Not that I'm criticizing religion. But that region has a history.

Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by Paulioetc15

 

Well China isn't really communist. They're essentially a continuation of Confucius ideals, currently communistic in name only.

Afghanistan under communist rule would probably look like any number of other former soviet states. I imagine it would probably be more civilized because religion would have been purged. Not that I'm criticizing religion. But that region has a history.

True but it would also lead to human rights abuse as well as the restrictions of the internet. I mean but as histories shows communism under Eastern Europe and Southeast Asia proves that communism doesn't work.

Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by Paulioetc15

 

Well China isn't really communist....

I thought the above statement should have ended with --> ANYMORE.

It's kind of funny in an ironic sort of way. Red China under Mao killed between 25 to 40 Million [Depending on the source] during the Cultural Revolution purging the population for perceived crimes & activities which now presently the Chinese Government has done a complete 180 and are now promoting those very same activities in their drive to become a world power. I think good old Chairman Mao is turning over in his grave.

So were they wrong then or are they wrong now.

Were they ever right?

Originally posted by SLAYER69

Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by Paulioetc15

 

Well China isn't really communist....

I thought the above statement should have ended with --> ANYMORE.

It's kind of funny in an ironic sort of way. Red China under Mao killed between 25 to 40 Million [Depending on the source] during the Cultural Revolution purging the population for perceived crimes & activities which now presently the Chinese Government has done a complete 180 and are now promoting those very same activities in their drive to become a world power. I think good old Chairman Mao is turning over in his grave.

So were they wrong then or are they wrong now.

Were they ever right?

Here i read from the People's republic of Afghanistan Wikipedia article.

Once in power, the PDPA implemented a socialist agenda. It moved to promote state atheism. The regime suppressed Muslims by: making men cut off their beards, women were not allowed to wear the burqa any longer, and most of the mosques were placed off limits at the start of the regime. The mosques re-opened in the 80s, because the party tried to win more supporters. It carried out an ambitious land reform, waiving farmers' debts countrywide and abolishing usury — intended to release the poorer farmers from debt peonage.

The government of the People's Democratic Party of Afghanistan moved to prohibit traditional practices which were deemed feudal in nature, including banning bride price (Mahr) and forced marriage. The minimum age for marriage was also raised. Education was stressed for both men and women and widespread literacy programmes were set up.

According to sources, in 1988, women made up 40 percent of the doctors and 60 percent of the teachers at the University of Kabul; 440,000 female students were enrolled in educational institutions and 80,000 more in literacy programs. Western dress was common in the cities, and women enjoyed freedom from having to cover their faces with veils. Soviet image of an Afghan crowd, circa 1980. The crowd is wearing Western style clothing, with Western hairstyles.

Such reforms however were not universally well-received, being viewed by many Afghans (particularly in rural areas) as the imposition of secular western values considered to be alien to Afghan culture and un-Islamic. As had happened earlier in the century, resentment with the government's programme and the manner in which it was imposed, along with widespread repression, provoked a backlash from tribal and Islamic leaders.The PDPA invited the Soviet Union to assist in modernizing its economic infrastructure (predominantly its exploration and mining of rare minerals and natural gas). The USSR also sent contractors to build roads, hospitals and schools and to drill water wells; they also trained and equipped the Afghan army. In April 1978, the USSR delivered to Afghanistan free of charge 45 BTR-65 PB armored personnel carriers with ammunition; 26 combat radios for border troops; 10,000 Kalashnikov rifles (AK); and 5,000 Makarov pistols (PM) with ammunition, totalling about 6.3 million rubles.

Upon the PDPA's ascension to power, and the establishment of the DRA, the Soviet Union promised monetary aid amounting to at least $1.262 billion. The destruction of Afghanistan's former ruling elite had begun immediately after the seizure of power. Execution (Parcham leaders later claimed at least 11,000 during the Taraki/Amin period), flight into exile, and later the devastation of Kabul itself would literally remove the great majority of the some 100,000 who had come to form Afghanistan's elite and middle class. Their loss almost completely broke the continuity of Afghanistan's leadership, political institutions and their social foundation. Karmal was dispatched to Czechoslovakia as ambassador, along with others shipped out of the country. Amin appeared to be the principal beneficiary of this strategy. The Khalq leadership proved incapable of filling this vacuum. Its brutal and clumsy attempts to introduce radical changes in control over agricultural land holding and credit, rural social relations, marriage and family arrangements, and education led to scattered protests and uprisings among all major communities in the Afghan countryside.

Taraki and Amin left a legacy of turmoil and resentment which gravely compromised later Marxist attempts to win popular acceptance. The human rights violations of the Khalq extended beyond the educated elite. Between April 1978 and the Soviet invasion of December 1979, Afghan Communists executed an estimated 27,000 political prisoners at Pul-i-Charki prison six miles east of Kabul. Many of the victims were village mullahs and headmen who were obstructing the modernization and secularization of the intensely religious Afghan countryside. The Khalq leadership introduced to Afghanistan the "knock on the door in the middle of the night", previously little known in that country, where the central government usually lacked the power to enforce its will beyond Kabul

many more information to come by.....en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by Paulioetc15


Everything looks good on paper....

But how did it really come out in the wash in the REAL real world elsewhere? Imposing the above wiki quote which again [Looks good] would have torn Afghanistan apart even more. [Which is exactly what happened] As it stands now in the real events that followed. After the Soviets left and the West stopped their support. There was a "Communist" Government in place. It was toppled by the united people of Afghanistan. [So they made their choice] then the tribes fragmented and civil war broke out.

The Afghans themselves overthrew the "In-Place" Communists.

So in the end what would have been different?

Originally posted by SLAYER69
reply to post by Paulioetc15

 

Everything looks good on paper....

But how did it really come out in the wash in the REAL real world elsewhere? Imposing the above wiki quote which again [Looks good] would have torn Afghanistan apart even more. [Which is exactly what happened] As it stands now in the real events that followed. After the Soviets left and the West stopped their support. There was a "Communist" Government in place. It was toppled by the united people of Afghanistan. [So they made their choice] then the tribes fragmented and civil war broke out.

The Afghans themselves overthrew the "In-Place" Communists.

So in the end what would have been different?

That's because most Afghans hated the communist a lot and without Soviet support, the Afghans overthrow the communist government. Pretty much but those are facts this is talking about some imagination because we help fund some anti-communist Afghan rebels

reply to post by Paulioetc15


OK so...

Let's look at it using real world history then as an example for this hypothetical scenario...

We would have a brutal Communist Government. Killing people [By the tens of thousands or more ] who wanted to worship their way.[Which have cultural, ethnic and tribal ties with Pakistan] as they do now. Then we would have people locked up [By the tens of thousands or more ] for lesser perceived issues with the Government Also, No real way of supporting an economy by the Government.

So, You would have an Atheistic Communist Government in place which would be at complete odds with their Nuclear armed Islamic neighbor to the East "Pakistan" and a very Islamic based western border neighbor "Iran"

Sounds like bad joojoo

Originally posted by SLAYER69
reply to post by Paulioetc15

 

OK so...

Let's look at it using real world history then as an example for this hypothetical scenario...

We would have a brutal Communist Government. Killing people [By the tens of thousands or more ] who wanted to worship their way.[Which have cultural, ethnic and tribal ties with Pakistan] as they do now. Then we would have people locked up [By the tens of thousands or more ] for lesser perceived issues with the Government Also, No real way of supporting an economy by the Government.

So, You would have an Atheistic Communist Government in place which would be at complete odds with their Nuclear armed Islamic neighbor to the East "Pakistan" and a very Islamic based western border neighbor "Iran"

Sounds like bad joojoo

edit on 6-9-2011 by SLAYER69 because: (no reason given)

Ok so wow, Iran, a theocracy, would have an ally to the communist Afghanistan as opposed to the West who strongly hates communism. Then Iran and Afghanistan in which the United Nations had a hard time dealing with. heck communist Afghanistan could be more opposed to Americans than American-backed current Afghanistan we have now. But i think communism didn't matter to most Islamic states because both Islamic and communist seems to hate the West as much. I guess it would be worse.

Oh ya i remember Iran and Iraq even had support from the USSR during the Iraq-Iran war.

Man can you imagine the worst part about it?