Testimony Kerry gave to the Senate that the Swift Boats speak of in new ad...hear it this thread.

(Hear Kerry�s Audio File At This Link) photos.imageevent.com...


But JOHN KERRY did lie... OR he repeated bad information.

No one is denying or questioning that war crimes did occur. Saying that Kerry's testimony was untrue is not the same as saying nothing bad ever took place. His testimony was based on discredited information.

Look at it this way: There are murders committed in the US, this is widely known. Murders do occur in America, no one denies that. However, if you personally "testify" to a specific murder that did not actually occur, and nothing you say can be confirmed, and you are relying on "witnesses" who weren't really there, then you are giving an untrue statement. Your personal testimony being incorrect doesn't mean murders never occur, but a judge would not say "well, it's OK if his testimony about this murder isn't accurate and isn't even a true case and is relying on false information, because, heck, other murders occur all the time." That's not how testimony works. Does that make sense?

Here's the deal... On April 22, 1971, Kerry "testified" before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. He started out by saying:

"I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.... They told the stories at times they had personally... [And then it went into these alleged atrocities that they "personally" saw or committed]" ... "We call this investigation the "Winter Soldier Investigation."

In his testimony he repeated "charges" from a mock trial, dubbed the "Winter Soldier Investigation," held in Detroit by anti-war activists in January and February of 1971. At that mock event, men claiming to be combat veterans accused themselves of atrocities. These were unsupported claims, and it later turned out that many of the men who made the claims were never in combat, or never in Nam, and some were never even in the military at all but were falsely using the names of actual veterans. (Remember, Kerry referred to these people as "honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans"). These "personal accounts" that Kerry was relaying in his testimony were the rantings of angry war protesters, not actual accounts of witnesses as Kerry claimed. (None of the soldiers would sign an affidavit to their "personal accounts.")

The possibility exists that Kerry took them at their word and thought he was telling the truth. The possibility also exists - and this is what many Vets feel - that he knew all along he was telling false stories and just assumed he'd be believed and no one would go back and re-interview those alleged "witnesses" of the alleged "atrocities."

Here, maybe this helps:
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Quote From: explanation-guide.info...
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The Winter Soldier Investigation, took place in Detroit, Michigan, on January 31-February 2, 1971. An activity of the Vietnam Veterans Against the War, it was presented as an assembly of 100 Vietnam War Veterans giving detailed testimony to specific crimes against humanity by the United States in Vietnam during the years of 1963-1970. The soldiers' testimony often overlaps, which if true would have exposed a pattern of atrocities against the Vietnamese people. According to Stolen Valor, the investigation has been thoroughly discredited.

Jane Fonda helped raise funds for the event, and organizers included Dick Gregory, Phil Ochs, Graham Nash, David Crosby, and Donald Sutherland.

Future Senator John Kerry, then a decorated lieutenant in the Naval Reserve (inactive status), would shortly thereafter testify before the American Congress to the general conclusions gathered in Detroit. At Winter Soldier, Kerry interviewed participants before they were presented by moderator Al Hubbard. (Note Al Hubbard turned out to be a FAKE Nam vet also, in other words he was not in Vietnam)

Sen. Mark Hatfield of Oregon entered the Winter Soldier transcripts into the Congressional Record and asked the commandant of the Marine Corps for an investigation. Investigators were unable to confirm [any of] the claimed atrocities, identified several participants as never being in combat, and some participants had used the names of Vietnam veterans.

Guenter Lewy in America in Vietnam says, "The results of this investigation, carried out by the Naval Investigative Service are interesting and revealing ... Many of the veterans, although assured that they would not be questioned about atrocities they might have committed personally, refused to be interviewed. One of the active members of the VVAW told investigators that the leadership had directed the entire membership not to cooperate with military authorities."

Phony Vietnam veterans around Winter Soldier

Guenter Lewy's 1978 book America in Vietnam (pages 316-317) and B.G. Burkett and Glenna Whitley's Stolen Valor (Verity Press, Inc., Dallas, Texas)(pages 113, 131-137) contain similar information about flaws in testimony and participants.

Lawyer and activist Mark Lane was one of the organizers of Winter Soldier. In 1970, Lane had published a book called Conversations With Americans purporting to be interviews with Vietnam veterans about war crimes, containing absurd Vietnam tales. Reporter Neil Sheehan showed some participants had never served in Vietnam and others had not been in the situations they described. Lane admitted he did not check military records, as "confirmation of details was not relevant."
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Kerry hasn't taken it back and hasn't actually admitted it was incorrect information. The closest he has come to admitting his testimony was false is this:
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Quote From John Kerry - www.cnn.com...
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"I think the way I characterized it at that time was mostly the voice of a young, angry person who wanted to end the war," Kerry told CNN's Candy Crowley in an interview broadcast on Thursday's anniversary of his Senate testimony. "I regret any feeling that anybody had that I somehow didn't embrace the quality of the service. But I have always said how nobly I think every veteran served." The senator concedes he wouldn't say the same things in the same way today, [and] that talk of "atrocities" back then was "over the top."

However....

Such qualified regret doesn't go far enough for some Vietnam veterans, who can't forgive the stigma they still see attached to those long-ago words. "He was the father of the lie that the Vietnam veteran was a rapist, a baby killer, a drug addict and the like," said John O'Neill, who served in the same Navy patrol unit where Kerry served and who sparred with him on national TV during the tumult of 1971. "I don't think there's anybody that did that, or created that, more than Kerry."

Kerry was part of the closing of the books on our MIAs and POWs too, and there were some illegal and unethical things that took place under his watch (such as the shredding of classified documents).

It is easy to pretty it up and say that Kerry was simply making things known or whatever, but the fact remains that many veterans (and families of Vets) were scarred by his actions and still suffer today. Not everything he said was untrue, of course, and much of it is moving. But those most damaging and infamous stories by the alleged witnesses have been discredited as being untrue.

Kerry's intention (he claims) was to blame the government, not the soldiers, but his wording and the false stories he told were damaging to the soldiers themselves.

[edit on 21-8-2004 by Firebase]