Prehistoric Ruins of a 15,000 Year Old Town Discovered

: Originally posted by lockheed
Something seems odd about this anyways. I don't know how they would have other 15,000 year old art to compare this town's art with. Also, none of the news reports are commenting on how this may rewrite all the history books. I wouldn't hold my breath over this if I were you....

a) it doesn't rewrite history books. There's Stone Age towns that old and older.

b) There is a LOT of art/petroglyphs/pictographs that old and older. We "date" them by a number of methods.

I belong to the Rock Art Foundation. Here's a nice page on art styles that tell the age of petroglyphs in the lower Pecos area of Texas:
www.rockart.org...

And here's one page on how some of it is dated (not all of it):
www.jqjacobs.net...

Hali, in Saudia Arabia, has been inhabited for more than 18,000 years.
saudiembassy.net...

...and so on and so forth.




(sigh)

[edit on 20-8-2004 by Byrd]

Thanx for the info Byrd. Sometimes us non-Anthropoligists get carried away

I dont think Im getting too carried away with assumptions. No offense to Byrd of course, but most people in the scientific community think they are untouchable, and tend to have over-inflated ego's...Dr. Zahi Hawas (spelling?...Egyptian Archaeologist) being a perfect example of this. I could name a few at my former University as well, but no need to do that .

wow! an organized civilization from before the ice age! this should rewrite history books but i doubt they will be rewritten. anyways kids dont believe what you learn in school because half of it is most likely wrong.

Byrd: Thanks for the info on dating the art (I'm an artist myself, and appreciate all art, but I'm no art historian and the info is very useful!)

I do agree with Jazzerman. It used to make my gf mad because some of her proffessors would state 'THIS' as fact, but in the same book they would teach from, 'THIS' would be disproven. Anthropology is by no means a static science. New theories are always evolved, produced, and thrown out. Anthropology is so dynamic, that's where alot of it's intrigue and appeal come from (besides getting to know our ancient bretheren better). Basically, though, if I wanted an honest opinion on something historical or ancient, I would be more apt to talk to an anthropologist who's still thinking 'dynamic science' than another, such as a historian or scientist. Trust Byrd, she knows her stuff.

Really, I think we would find alot of awesome cities and settlements in desert areas if more people were willing to look. Sonic mapping works excellent in desert areas, especially sandy deserts. Too bad the archeological community doesn't have the resources to map out large areas of desert regions with this technology. I'm willing to bet we would find out alot more about the earth's history than just it's little parasite virii (people). Sadly, though, most sites are found purely by accident, and then the officials are called in. I can't wait to hear more news on this, though... it is very interesting find!

Originally posted by Earthscum
Byrd: Thanks for the info on dating the art (I'm an artist myself, and appreciate all art, but I'm no art historian and the info is very useful!)

The thing that makes dating confirmation possible is that some of these sites had more than one type of art. For instance, although the Dreamers of the American Indians did much of the art in California, there were also village sites where puberty rite artwork was done. In these cases, you find not only the settlement (with dated material (sometimes referred to in historical documents) and examples of art styles) but also middens (garbage heaps) where you find layers of material with styles and stylistic evolution.

It's really quite interesting (I'm an artist myself, btw.)

I do agree with Jazzerman. It used to make my gf mad because some of her proffessors would state 'THIS' as fact, but in the same book they would teach from, 'THIS' would be disproven.

Remember, books are static. The teacher may have been teaching the other idea because of updated material. Did she ever ask... or just get mad?

Basically, though, if I wanted an honest opinion on something historical or ancient, I would be more apt to talk to an anthropologist who's still thinking 'dynamic science' than another, such as a historian or scientist. Trust Byrd, she knows her stuff.

Aww. Blush. I'm really just a student and really just learning. It's SO fascinating, though!

Really, I think we would find alot of awesome cities and settlements in desert areas if more people were willing to look. Sonic mapping works excellent in desert areas, especially sandy deserts. Too bad the archeological community doesn't have the resources to map out large areas of desert regions with this technology. I'm willing to bet we would find out alot more about the earth's history than just it's little parasite virii (people). Sadly, though, most sites are found purely by accident, and then the officials are called in. I can't wait to hear more news on this, though... it is very interesting find!

No kidding! On the one site I'm doing a student film about ("Painted Rock" in California), there is a report that there was some sort of stone flooring inside the "arena" area itself and reports of a number of artifacts removed in the 1800's. Now... I don't quite credit all this, but I would LOVE to get in there with some radar and map out what's under the current layer of dirt! There's a lot to be discovered at the site, but it is so delicate that I don't think they're allowing any research there.

I need to get my film finished... such an intriguing tale. The historian who recorded the original tale heard it from someone who mixed (impossibly) Aztec material with the Chumash tales and Paiute (possibly) material. But there's alot of good material in that little book (and I love the site) and I would dearly love to do some nondestructive research on the area!

Originally posted by Byrd
Remember, books are static. The teacher may have been teaching the other idea because of updated material. Did she ever ask... or just get mad?

Hard to explain. Basically the couple prof's that were that way were so full of contradictions it wasn't even slightly amusing. They would fully preach anthro as a dynamic science/art (UW Anthro is considered Art because it's dynamic), but turn right around and say 'THIS' is absolute. I remember the section she had that about drove her nutzo was all about stone tools (mauls, arrowheads, spearheads, etc.). This prof was absolute that (example) say, Clovis points were only around 'this' area, and were never older than 'xxxx' years, etc. I would show my gf stuff online (I kinda helped her do research, since I was the computer geek) where they have proven that idea to be wrong many times, this is what they found in S.America, blah blah blah. She tried to keep with as many 'open minded' prof's as possible, as I did with art.

Aww. Blush. I'm really just a student and really just learning. It's SO fascinating, though!

Sry, I can be a schmooze sometimes

I need to get my film finished... such an intriguing tale. The historian who recorded the original tale heard it from someone who mixed (impossibly) Aztec material with the Chumash tales and Paiute (possibly) material. But there's alot of good material in that little book (and I love the site) and I would dearly love to do some nondestructive research on the area!

You're gonna have to make a mailing list, or post on ATS, when you get yer film done... I love history that isn't written and purposefully manipulated!

There are many places in Wyoming that I would absolutly love to perform non-destructive archeology. I can't believe some of the stuff you can find using sonic methods. I dearly hope that this technology takes off SOON. They've been using it so long anyways. Personally, it pains me to see some of these sites that are torn up needlessly, landscape changed, etc. Thankfully they are beginning to do reclamation on alot of these sites.

I do hope they uncover some new history with this site... I love watching people squirm when they are wrong Hopefully it will be well worth the effort and time put forth to uncover this city/town/settlement. I'm most interested in the death of the settlement... did they move, were they conquered, were they wiped out by natural causes? How long were they settled there, were they farmers or ranchers, did they trade with any other settlements, or were they the only ones in the area, etc? Man, I'm getting myself all antsy in the pantsy between this site and the one underwater off the coast of Japan! Plus the 'stories' of the crystal pyramids off the coast of the Carribeans...

Originally posted by everlastingnoitall
15,000 years? Wouldn't that predate the Sumerian Civ? I wonder what the scientific community will do if they discover evidence of a developed language?

This would be 13000 BC. I think the earliest settlements are from around 9000 BC, at least the earliest 'major' settlements. Apparently this new settlement is from the Paleolithic. I don't think its 'surprising' to have a settlement from that time, but its certainly exciting.

thebandit795:
Or they will do anything they can to debunk the date... Even if it has to be debunked unfairly..

wow! an organized civilization from before the ice age! this should rewrite history books but i doubt they will be rewritten. anyways kids dont believe what you learn in school because half of it is most likely wrong.

When did they teach you that this couldn't happen?

earthscum:
Really, I think we would find alot of awesome cities and settlements in desert areas if more people were willing to look

The sahara was supposed to have been more fertile and, well, pleasant, in the remote past, so there are probably many other extremely old settlements to be found there.

Why would anyone want to debunk it?

dont think many professors would even be willing to accept this. It would change everything!

It changes the dates for the earliest settlements significantly, but it doesn't change everything. Perhaps some people are thinking that houses, temples, and a necropolis require significant impressive structures. The article is very sparse in detail, if you notice it doesn't even name the researchers or what organization they are affiliated with.

everlastingnoitall:
Predating the ice age could mean we would be looking at (if you believe that sort of thing) the ruins of a pre-flood (Noah) civilization! That would be a first, no?

Literal interpretations of genesis place the origin of the world at 4000 BC, before which there is a long history of human civilization and development.

1. It wouldn't pre-date the last ice age, it would have been around when the end of the last ice period came.

2. The Sahara wasn't a desert then, it was more savanna like, so if the artwork they've found is depictions of savanna animals, then dating the site to that wetter period is not a stretch.

I can't wait to hear more on this one!

This has been the first truly interesting (I.E. not atlantis , lemuria, mu, or reptioid) Threads on the ancient civ string.
Thank you