Saudi Arabia discovers 9,000 year-old civilization, The al-Maqar

originally posted by: SLAYER69
reply to post by Mimir

 

S & F

Excellent find.

I appreciate your posting of the article. This goes hand in hand with another recent find. That of the discovery of the "Persian Gulf" being created by a flood at or around the same period. Which could have been the cause and origin of the rapid sprouting of the cradle civilization/Mesopotamia etc. These people could have either been survivors who traveled inland to reestablish themselves in a new location or possibly even been contemporaries of the original people. [whose location could be at the bottom of the existing Persian Gulf] which was at the time before the flooding event a large fertile valley. Which by the way when looked at on a map the now submerged entrance would have been close to the "Indus Valley" civilization.

Both wrote in similar but distinct forms of "Sandscript". A lost possible common origin? You know me. I'm always trying to connect the dots

Coincidence?
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/3272bb50c693.png[/atsimg]

Interesting info about the "FLOOD STORY" maybe we need to connect the dots a bit here...
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/cf18662d3e14.jpg[/atsimg]
Lost civilization may have been beneath Persian Gulf

At its peak, the floodplain now below the Gulf would have been about the size of Great Britain, and then shrank as water began to flood the area. Then, about 8,000 years ago, the land would have been swallowed up by the Indian Ocean

Watery refuge
The Gulf Oasis would have been a shallow inland basin exposed from about 75,000 years ago until 8,000 years ago, forming the southern tip of the Fertile Crescent, according to historical sea-level records.

"Perhaps it is no coincidence that the founding of such remarkably well developed communities along the shoreline corresponds with the flooding of the Persian Gulf basin around 8,000 years ago," Rose said. "These new colonists may have come from the heart of the Gulf, displaced by rising water levels that plunged the once fertile landscape beneath the waters of the Indian Ocean."

So, i have been looking on Livescience today (whiling away the working day!) and i have come across this new article:

Monster tsunami may have created Madagascar's giant dunes

In a nutshell, Geologists have found evidence of mega tsunami deposits in the giant Dunes of Madagascar (up to 185m high). These deposits are extremely high in Calcium Carbonate (key ingredient of marine fossils), whilst neighborouging deposits do not share these characteristics. On their own, these could be explained by other phenomena also but the team have also found similar deposits all over the Indian Ocean, as far away as Western Australia. These Australian deposits are up to 150m above sea level and up to 7km inland.

Now, previous studies have shown (as far as possible) that the final inundation of the Arabian Peninsula was around 8'000 years ago. What these geologists have found is that the Madagascar dune forming mega tsunami was also around 8'000 years ago - and most likely from a comet impact in the Indian Ocean. There are tell tales clues it was comet rather than other such as the high content of calcium carbonate - suggesting it had been a sudden event rather than usual erosive processes.

Could this have been the nail in the coffin for the Arabian Peninsula civilization? A comet that leaves deposits 185m high in Madagascar and also 150m high, 7km inland in Australia, would certainly have effected the (now) below sea level peninsula in Arabia.

Smoking gun? Possibly not. It certainly provides a bit more fuel for the fire though.......

The problem you have, with connecting this to any flood story, is that the flood stories from around that region are all derived from the Mesopotamian flood account in Gilgamesh, which describes the entire land of Mesopotamia being inundated. It in turn is derived from the flood account of Atrahasis, which only describes a riverine flood.

So when scientists say things like

Rose pointed out. "Nearly every civilization living in southern Mesopotamia has told some form of the flood myth. While the names might change, the content and structure are consistent from 2,500 B.C. to the Genesis account to the Qur'anic version," Rose said.
Perhaps evidence beneath the Gulf? "If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family Anatidae on our hands," said Rose,

Then its very very clear, that like everyone else looking for a geological cause for a textual phenomena, they should have just examined the texts a bit more closely. This information has been available after all in text form for over 4000 years, maybe they should take the time to actually read the texts they are making pronouncements about and stop hypothesising without any evidence.

a reply to: Marduk

I'm glad you brought that up, the earliest texts indicate it was a river flood that affected the lower city-states along the Gulf delta. We even have records of the administrators of these cities requesting scribes to replace the ones they lost in the flood from northern cities, as by that point the Sumerian language was dying out - the written records were in Sumerian, but most of the population spoke Semitic tongues like Akkadian - Sumerian writing at this time was analogous to Latin in the middle ages - it was the 'official language' of the court but few people actually spoke it.

a reply to: Flavian

Hey flavian,
Thanks for posting that, I need to follow live sci, because I haven't seen any mention of D. Abbots work recently. I've been following her for more than a decade.

I am surprised at the mention of the 8k date, I think it is a upper limit for the age boundary.
Have you read any of Clube and Napiers work on the taurid complex? I'm currently reading Napiers "Cosmic Serpent" good stuff.
Uber dendrochronologist Mike Baillie has done some fantastic work pinning down climate change traces in tree rings and correlating them with ice core records.

If you are interested in this line of study I've got a crap load of papers on the subject,

a reply to: Atlantican
If you bury it underground, it will take a very, very long time to decompose.

Most laptop shells are ABS plastic which will last indefinitely if protected from acetone and harsh environments. Underground...when your grand kids dig it up...they will find a fairly decent (albeit dirty) laptop. Granted, it most likely wouldn't function, but it would still definitely be a 'laptop'.

As for the AL shells, they could take even longer. By burying them, you are protecting them. The AL will oxidize as the finish degrades, but once oxidized, it will last until the oxidization layer is removed. In a stable geological area, that could be thousands of years. As, the AL shelled laptops tend to be of higher quality, they also generally have glass screens...which would take a million years or so to decompose.

If our fore fathers were using advanced electronics, we would be finding it.

a reply to: Marduk
Marduk, as a serious scholar on things Mesopotamian, have you read any of Marie Agnes Courty's work? Most significantly the work from Tel Leilan? Might just change your opinion might not, but you can't argue with her teams professionalism.

originally posted by: punkinworks10
a reply to: Marduk
Marduk, as a serious scholar on things Mesopotamian, have you read any of Marie Agnes Courty's work? Most significantly the work from Tel Leilan? Might just change your opinion might not, but you can't argue with her teams professionalism.

Isn't that about 2300bce climate change caused by a cosmic event

That's well argued, but it won't account for the earlier text talking about the river flooding and then later scribes only changing certain words in the text to exaggerate it to make it look like all of Mesopotamia.

The original Ark for instance was made from a reed hut, the only animals on board were the personal animals of the flood hero. With each retelling these things multiplied.

I wouldn't think a comet impact would be responsible for a flood that made people fearful, in a country that floods every year either

In 1929 Sir Leonard Woolley made the same mistake of thinking the flood story was real, he went to Mesopotamia looking for evidence of it, came across a layer of silt in the Sumerian city of Shuruppak and famously cabled London with the message "we have found the flood", after digging further, he found another layer of silt and then another and another, a tablet telling the flood story was found beneath the lowest layer of his excavation...
no trace of a similar deposit was found at Eridu, which was right on the coast, which proves that the floods of Mesopotamia came down from the mountains caused by seasonal rain and not up from the sea

a reply to: Marduk

Here is a link to her earlier paper,
articles.adsabs.harvard.edu...
I believe she has revised the date since this was published.

And to go along with that paper is this one by
Siefert & Lemke

www.dropbox.com...

The astronomical work of Napier, Clube and Whipple have shown that starting about 15kya up to common era the earth was earth was pummeled by celestial objects.
One thing that no one considers is the fact that the flood stories are an amalgamation of stories of separate events widely spaced in time.

originally posted by: punkinworks10One thing that no one considers is the fact that the flood stories are an amalgamation of stories of separate events widely spaced in time.

Because its not true
There is an original riverine flood story which has lots of later derivations which clearly are edited copies,
The flood it describes happened around 3000BCE
After that they started using dykes and levy's to control the rising waters each year, sentences were created to ensure that the flood defences were up kept, such as death by drowning to any foreman who allowed his dyke to fall into disrepair

There is a big difference between reading the mythology from secondary sources and reading the facts from the people who were involved in it. The reason there are so many flood stories across the world, is because we live on a planet which is 4/5 water. Floods still happen in numerous places every year, currently half of N England is flooded.
It didn't get hit by a comet

Even then, the amount of flood stories from various cultures numbers less than 200 going back 5000 years.

There are more than 100 floods annually on this planet, so you are creating an answer for a question that hasn't been asked. Velikovsky started off this need for catastrophism with "Ages in chaos"and Velikovsky has been proven wrong. If it weren't for Childress, Hancock and their journalist ilk making up catastrophes to explain why their ideas have no supporting evidence then it wouldn't even be in the public consciousness
Stick with the facts

a reply to: SLAYER69

That of the discovery of the "Persian Gulf" being created by a flood at or around the same period.

I'm presently working on this flood theory, and it seems as thought it may have happened more than once. And it appears as though some of the floods were "Local" and one or two of the first floods were global.

To reiterate, the Persina gulf was not created by a cosmic event in 2300BCE
It is the result of plate tectonics, pulling apart the Arabian and Eurasian plates, which is why it fits together so neatly. 20 million years ago it started to reverse itself and is now closing up again
If the Persian gulf were the result of a comet impact
1. You would expect to see a hole in the crust in the centre radiating fault lines outwards. No such hole exists
2. It would have wiped out all the life on this planet, the crater at Chicxulub which wiped out the dinosaurs is 110 miles in diameter, the Persian gulf is over 600 miles long

Bearing in mind 2, who do you think was writing down these events later...

If you are getting global from the first floods then can you tell me what texts you are getting that from ?

I know you're not getting it from the geology

originally posted by: Marduk
The problem you have, with connecting this to any flood story, is that the flood stories from around that region are all derived from the Mesopotamian flood account in Gilgamesh, which describes the entire land of Mesopotamia being inundated. It in turn is derived from the flood account of Atrahasis, which only describes a riverine flood.

The Atrahasis story describes torrential rain, gale force winds and a tidal surge. As well as riverine flooding.

ie, a tropical cyclone

originally posted by: AndyMayhew

originally posted by: Marduk
The problem you have, with connecting this to any flood story, is that the flood stories from around that region are all derived from the Mesopotamian flood account in Gilgamesh, which describes the entire land of Mesopotamia being inundated. It in turn is derived from the flood account of Atrahasis, which only describes a riverine flood.

The Atrahasis story describes torrential rain, gale force winds and a tidal surge. As well as riverine flooding.

ie, a tropical cyclone

Here is the description of the flood from Atrahasis

The aspect of the weather altered,
as Adad roared in the clouds.
When he heard the noise made by Adad,
pitch was brought for him to caulk his door.
After he had barred his door,
Adad was roaring in the clouds;
the winds became ferocious
as he rose to sever the hawser and set the boat adrift.
[AV] The chariot of the gods ... was ravaging,
slaughtering, threshing.
Ninurta caused the dykes to overflow,
Errakal tore up the posts.
3 Anzu with his talons rent the heavens apart,
shattering the land noisily like a pot.
[BV] The flood set in . . .,
its force came upon the people like an army.
People could not see one another;
they could not be recognized in the disaster.
The flood bellowed like a wild ox,
while the wind howled like a whinnying wild ass.
The darkness was thick,
the sun [12] . was gone. . . .
The noise of the flood caused the gods to tremble. . . .
[Enki] was beside himself,
as his children were thrown down before him.
The lips of Nintu, [13] the great lady,
were overcome with feverishness. [14]
The Anunnaki, the great gods,
sat hungering and thirsting.
The goddess saw it as she wept,
the midwife of the gods, wise Mami: [15]
Let the day become dark, let it return to gloom.

I'm not getting the details you are from it, the storm surge claim for instance I wouldn't think is credible in a location like Shurrupuk which was about 400 miles from the coast

a reply to: SLAYER69


sure...I mean that in a nice way...

a culture grew & blossomed there because....as theory has it (for some of us fringe people) the present Persian Gulf was once the 'Garden' Spot-of-the-World - AKA: Eden...

the sons of Adam-Eve joined with the culture that lived there in that lush valley paradise (took wives) and the expulsion from the Garden (now the Persian Gulf) is being discovered as advanced peoples -'on the run' from a localized catastrophe ~7,000 BCE ...
which the Thread OP is about


I thought the Gulf was formed much earlier...say during the end-of-ice-age 'big-melt' around 12,000 BCE... but the dating thing is always in question, huh

originally posted by: St Udio
a reply to: SLAYER69


sure...I mean that in a nice way...

a culture grew & blossomed there because....as theory has it (for some of us fringe people) the present Persian Gulf was once the 'Garden' Spot-of-the-World - AKA: Eden...

the sons of Adam-Eve joined with the culture that lived there in that lush valley paradise (took wives) and the expulsion from the Garden (now the Persian Gulf) is being discovered as advanced peoples -'on the run' from a localized catastrophe ~7,000 BCE ...
which the Thread OP is about


I thought the Gulf was formed much earlier...say during the end-of-ice-age 'big-melt' around 12,000 BCE... but the dating thing is always in question, huh

That's not fringe, its Judaism
is Judaism fringe now ?


btw, the gulf has been forming for 40 million years, look at how it fits so neatly together
Has the fringe caught up with the modern theory of plate tectonics yet or is it still stuck on Hapgood....

a reply to: MardukNone of the Oceans of this world are much older than 80-85 million years. Please review the following diagrams from W o r l d D a t a C e n t e r - A f o r M a r i n e G e o l o g y a n d G e o p h y s i c s R e p o r t M G G - 1 2 ( 1 9 9 6 ) P u b l i s h e d b y t h e N a t i o n a l G e o p h y s i c a l D a t a C e n t e

You will note the expansion cracks at the bottom of the oceans in black. The Persian Gulf has no suck crack and most likely can assume it was not the result of plates separating, and more likely the result of a local flood after sea levels rose.

a reply to: All Seeing Eye

That has absolutely no bearing on this discussion
You claimed that there were two floods that were global, on a planet that doesn't have enough water to cause a global flood and on the same planet which shows no evidence at all of global flooding, unless you are a religious believer in which case your standard for evidence is "if its in the bible its true, Satan has hidden the evidence"
I'm hoping that's not the case here

So I was asking you for your evidence, not a estimate of the age of the earths oceans. The Persian gulf has been around for 20 million years. So claiming that no ocean is older than 85 million years is kinda irrelevant, the pacific has sediments which are 200 million years old, not that, that's relevant either.

I'm also hoping you realise that it wasn't the Sumerians who said that Tiamat was a watery planet, they described it as a sea monster, it was actually Sitchin who claimed it was a planet and Sitchin is not a credible source, no, not even slightly
Have you even read the Enuma Elish ?

originally posted by: All Seeing Eye
a reply to: MardukNone of the Oceans of this world are much older than 80-85 million years. Please review the following diagrams from W o r l d D a t a C e n t e r - A f o r M a r i n e G e o l o g y a n d G e o p h y s i c s R e p o r t M G G - 1 2 ( 1 9 9 6 ) P u b l i s h e d b y t h e N a t i o n a l G e o p h y s i c a l D a t a C e n t e

You will note the expansion cracks at the bottom of the oceans in black. The Persian Gulf has no suck crack and most likely can assume it was not the result of plates separating, and more likely the result of a local flood after sea levels rose.

It's actually there, but it's small in comparison to the scale of the world.

Wikipedia link on the rift (widening) for the Red Sea/Gulf of Aden

a reply to: Marduk

Hi Marduk,

I don't think i made myself properly clear in my post at the top of the page - i am not and never have been claiming any evidence of a global flood. I was being very specific about the Arabian Peninsula (not Mesopotamia or the Levant) with the 8'000 dates for both comet impact (if that is what is was) and also for the flooding of that Peninsula.

a reply to: MardukReligion has no baring on my conclusions of global floods. The history of oxygen, does. And, I find it interesting that the age of the sea beds, oxygen content reducing, and the dinosaurs demise all fall within a time frame of roughly 70 - 80 million years. You will also remember that many dinosaur bone beds have many species in them as if they were victims of a flood.

The rapid decline of oxygen over a short period of time can only be accounted for if you understand trees, the primary generator of oxygen, are underwater, and not being able to produce oxygen. But this theory also would explain why the oxygen content remained low afterward, if, you can see that a planet that was mostly covered in vast forests and only small inland seas is replaced by one that is expanding (allowing all the water to seek its own level, which is actually squeezing the crust downward and outward, producing mountain ranges, and ocean floors) and now covered mostly by water. Obviously, trees do not grow in the oceans and can not produce the amounts of oxygen as they did before.

First flood event approximately 70 million years ago. And most likely was the reason for the demise of the dinosaurs. A slight rebound of the oxygen content then at about 58 million another flooding event. And another at roughly 21 million.

In as far as Tiamat being responsible for the flood waters, well, its anyone's guess. But on the other hand, the biblical stories of a massive envelope of water "Above", would be understandable then.

Link? I cant, it my own theory. Anyone interested in this theory contact me via u2u. Ill be more than happy to share it in a intelligible manner, if possible lol lol

Something else that is interesting. It seems the biblical patriarchs ages also follow the same chart of the oxygen content, with the same spikes following the declining oxygen content. probably just a coincidence.

Dinosaurs dying off, oxygen content dropping, and the formation of the oceans, approximately 70 -80 million years ago, just doesn't seem to be coincidental to me.

I apologize if it appears as though I am going off subject but if your going to go into ancient history one must consider all aspects of it. 20 million years ago was the final major flood even that could have created the Persian Gulf.