Great Salt Lake Connects to the Pacific Ocean in 1800?

Yet again, new supporting evidence arrised in support of John Lear's 'Subterrainian Naval Submarine Bases' theory with a off center post from the State of Utah's Geology department...

Great Salt Lake Connects to the Pacific Ocean in 1800?

According to an intriguing 1826 map atlas, an unnamed river flowed from Great Salt Lake (also unnamed at the time) all the way to the Pacific Ocean. The atlas, titled Morse’s New Universal Atlas of the World on an Improved Plan of Alphabetical Indexes, Designed for Academies and Higher Schools, was recently donated to the Utah Geological Survey

upon looking closer at the area of the map noting this river's supposed location, it called Great Salt Lake as "BuenaVentura", where this river then made it's way westward, even across the Sierra Nevada Mnt. range to San Francisco Bay, labeled as "the Bay of Francisco". Morse obviously copied an older map of original Spanish origin, as shown by the language the names of places on the map was written in, however the area was occupied at the time this map was released by the Native Americans, not Spaniards, who happened to call Salt Lake and it's tributary river "Buena Ventura"... What made the lake and the river a "Good and prosperous journey?"

as of 1826, Utah was 70 years away from statehood, the Mormon Pioneers had yet to make their way out West, and the area now known as Salt Lake City was inhabited by the Shoshone, Ute, and Paiute Indian Tribes.

During this time, rumors claimed that the lake did indeed have an outflow, but the entire shoreline of the lake had not yet been explored. Although Jim Bridger was the first white man to reach the shores of Great Salt Lake in 1825, the lake was not fully circumnavigated until 1849 by Howard Stansbury who then officially declared that no river flowed out of Great Salt Lake.
On a global scale, land was rapidly changing hands as a result of fluctuating European colonial rule, and the United States was swiftly expanding its borders from the 13 original colonies that had gained independence from the British Empire in 1776. This is reflected in the atlas not only in the level of detail of each individual map, but also by which maps the author chose to include, and the order in which they are presented.

hmmmm...

Obviously, it was the Native Americans who told the Spaniards of this river, which most likely was accessible via underground cavern entrances (which the map didn't reveal).

Underground, you ask?

Yes, and here's the collaborating stories to make such a claim... enjoy...



The following excerpts are from branton's SECRETS OF THE MOJAVE - SECTION 2 & SECTION 3:

In 1962, a researcher by the name of Chuck Edwards released some of his own discoveries concerning what might be referred to as the 'Western Subsurface Drainage Network', which seems to cover parts of Utah, Nevada, and Southern California, where are located many drainage systems which do not ultimately flow into the Pacific ocean (via surface rivers, that is), but instead make their way underground into a vast subterranean drainage network. His letter appeared in issue A-8 of 'THE HIDDEN WORLD', one of the few specialized publications which grew out of the Palmer-Shaver controversy of 1940-45 which appeared in AMAZING STORIES science fiction/science fact magazine. The 'controversy' arose around Richard Shaver's claim's to have inside knowledge of two subterranean races which possessed aerial disks: the 'Deros' which have been variously described as a race of ancient out-of-control Atlantean robots, degenerate human troglodytes, or a race of reptilian non- humans (or all three) who were at war with another much more benevolent (and human) subterranean race known as the 'Teros'. The Deros were allegedly tormenting those on the surface of the earth through psychic attack and electronic mind control from their underworld lairs, in preparation for a possible future invasion of the outer world.

The answers to the aerial-subsurface mystery remained rather confused during the 'AMAZING STORIES-Shaver Mystery' period, possibly because of Shaver's perhaps well-intentioned but unwise attempt to inform the readers about the world beyond and the world below through science-fact-fiction stories (however, the readers were never clearly instructed as to where the fact ended and the fiction began), or because of editor Ray Palmer's attempts to 'occultize' many of Shaver's stories with his own mystic-occult philosophies, which Shaver accused him of doing.

So it was in the wake of this period that investigators like Mr. Edwards' were born. Some of the researchers of this period delved off into the metaphysical, seeking the answer to their questions from 'channeled' supernatural entities who tickled their egos, yet whose intentions and revelations could not be physically substantiated. The fact that many of these occultists ended up with severe emotional or psychotic problems -- in essence seeing a 'Dero' under every bed and degenerating into schizophrenic paranoid behavior -- would indicate that the greater majority of their 'sources' were no doubt astral or alien deceivers out to mislead these seekers after truth. Others however retained their intellectual and analytical sanity and, although not discounting the presence of evil influences, did not so easily open themselves up to their lies and misleading propaganda but set out to investigate the phenomena in a rational, sane, and intellectual manner. It is with this in mind that we quote from Chuck Edwards' letter (Note: These comments are addressed in a letter to Richard S. Shaver):

"This letter is in reply to your January 31 letter. Please forgive me for not answering sooner. Enclosed is some material I hope that you can glean something of value (from). Please be as candid as you have been in the past and if I am far off base don't hesitate to tell me...

"Our foundation has located a vast system of underground passages in the Mother Lode country of California. They were first discovered in 1936, ignored by all even with our best efforts to reveal them. Recently a road crew blasted out an opening verifying our claims. ONE (of the chambers is) 200 feet long, 70 feet wide and 50 feet high. We have disclosed what we believe to be a vast subterranean drainage system (probably traversing the Great American Desert country for a distance of more than 600 miles). We believe this system extends out like five fingers of your hand to such landmarks as Zion Canyon in Utah, the Grand Canyon, another runs south from the Carson Sink in Nevada and yet another follows (below) the western slope of the same range, joining it's counterpart and ending somewhere in the Mojave Desert.** We believe, contrary to orthodox geologists, that the existence of this underground system drains all surface waters running into Nevada (none, with the exception of the Armagosa runs out) and accounts for the fact that it is a Great American Desert. The hairy creatures that you have written about have been seen in several of these areas. Certainly there has been much 'saucer' activity in these parts. For two years I have collected material pertinent to these creatures and if you have any opinions along these lines I would appreciate hearing them.

"So much for now. I hope that I am still your friend. Much of my time has been devoted (to) helping a farmer near Portland who has made a fantastic discovery of incredible stone artifacts. He has several tons of them. They predate anything yet found (or accepted), let us say that for now. We are making slow but steady progress in getting through the wall of orthodoxy. - Chuck Edwards."

Several years ago, subsurface researcher Richard Toronto reprinted a news article in his SHAVERTRON newsletter describing a Municipal Water Director in Los Angeles. This official talked with a man who said that he was hired by the government to look for underground water sources for Camp Irwin in California.

At one point the man and a partner came across an abandoned mine and decided to follow it to the bottom. Near the bottom he was surprised to discover an ancient earth-fault which was wide enough for him and his companion to enter. They traversed this fault for a good distance until they finally emerged into a huge river-cavern. To his surprise he saw before him a crystal pure underground river over a quarter of a mile wide which flowed through the passage and out of sight.

Since learning of this incident the Municipal Water Director claims to have 'discovered' at least five similar underground rivers. Some of these have allegedly been die-traced and were found to emerge from the continental slope below the surface of the oceans, and at least one of them into the Gulf of California.

This might confirm the allegations made by one anonymous retired Navy officer that the Navy has knowledge of a VAST system or labyrinth of aqua-caverns which meander beneath the surface of California and even into other western states, and that these watery labyrinths exit out into the oceans via huge entrances in the lower walls of the Continental Slope. One of the more extravagant claims is that some of these aqua-caverns are so large that they can be navigated by submarine, and that one nuclear submarine on a secret mapping mission in fact became lost within the maze and was never heard from again. Two American nuclear submarines have disappeared without explanation in the past, the U.S.S. SCORPION and the U.S.S. THRESHER.** It is true that one woman who claimed to have had a very strong emotional bond with her husband who worked on the Thresher, insisted at the time that she just 'knew' that her husband was still alive after the 'disaster'. She said that she and her husband had such a spiritual-emotional connection that they always knew when the other was in trouble (For information on the Navy's investigations of the aqua-labyrinths via nuclear subs, etc., see: 'CALIFORNIA FLOATS ON OCEAN?'; article in the March, 1980 issue of John J. Williams' "REBEL MAGAZINE", which at the time was available from: Consumertronics Co., c/o John J. Williams. Pres., 2011 Crescent Dr., P.O. Drawer 537., Alamogardo, NM 88310). The 'Thresher' incidentally 'disappeared' on April 10, 1963 with a crew of 129 men under the command of John W. Harvey, USN.)




The following additional details are taken from branton's SECRETS OF THE MOJAVE - SECTION 9:

William Halliday, in his book 'ADVENTURE IS UNDER- GROUND', records an affidavit submitted by a Mr. Earl P. Dorr, describing vast caverns he and an associate allegedly discovered and explored in Southern California. Portions of the sworn testimonial are quoted below:

"...These caverns are about 250 miles from Los Angeles, California. Traveling over state highways by automobile, the caverns can be reached in a few hours.

"Accompanied by a mining engineer, I visited the caverns in the month of May, 1927. We entered them and spent 4 days exploring them for a distance of between 8 and 9 miles. We carried with us altimeters and pedometers, to measure the distance we traveled, and had an instrument to take measure- ments of distance by triangulation, together with such instruments convenient and necessary to make observations and estimations.

"Our examinations revealed the following facts, viz:

"1. From the mouth of the cavern we descended about 2000 feet. There, we found a canyon which, on our altimeter, measured about 3000 to 3500 feet deep. We found the caverns to be divided into many chambers, filled and embellished with the usual stalactites and stalagmites, besides many grotesque and fantastic wonders that make the caverns one of the marvels of the world.

"2. On the floor of the canyon there is a flowing river which by careful examination and measurement (by triangulation) we estimated to be about 300 feet wide, and with considerable depth. The river rises and falls with the tides of the sea -- at high tide, being approximately 300 feet wide, and at low tide, approximately 10 feet wide and 4 feet deep. (Obviously this can only mean that, if this account is true, the "source" of the river is an underground reservoir large enough to be moved by the tides, "overflowing" into the river during the high tides and "receding" at low tide - Branton)

"3. When the tide is out there is exposed on both sides of the river from 100 to 150 feet of black beach sand which is very rich in gold values. The sands are from 4 to 11 feet deep. This means there are about 300 to 350 feet of rich bearing placer sand which averages 8 feet in depth. We explored the canyon sands a distance of 8 miles, finding little variation in the depth and width of the sands.

"4. I am a practical miner of many years' experience and I own valuable mining properties nearby which I am willing to pledge and put up as security to guarantee that the statements herein are true.

"5. My purpose of exploring the caverns was to study the mineralogy in order to ascertain the mineral possibilities and actualities of the caves, making such examination in person with my engineer necessary to determine by expert examination the character and quantity of mineral values of the caverns, rocks and sands.

"6. I carried out about 10 lbs. of the black sand and 'panned' it, receiving more than $7 in gold. I sold it to a gold buyer who offered me at the rate of $18 per ounce. 2 1/2 lbs. of this black sand I sent to John Herman, assayer, whose assay certificate shows a value of $2145.47 per [cubic] yard, with gold at $20.67 per ounce.

"7. From engineering measurements and observations we made, I estimated that it would require a tunnel about 350 feet long to penetrate to the caverns, one thousand feet or more below the present entrance, which are some 3 miles distant from my property.

"8. I make no estimate of even the approximate tonnage of the black sand, but some estimate of the cubical contents may be made for more than 8 miles and the minimum depth is never less than 3 feet. They are of varying depth -- what their maximum depth may be we do not know. -- Sworn by E. P. Dorr., 309 Adena St., Pasadena, Calif., November 16, 1934."

It is interesting that the "source" of this river would be some- where within or beneath the great western desert of Utah-Nevada- California where little surface water escapes by way of streams and rivers. Halliday in his book also refers to a water-filled cave annexed to Death Valley, known as "Devil's Hole", which according to some sources rises and falls slightly with the tides! This may indicate that certain underground water-courses below the Mojave Desert might ultimately connect with extensive underground lakes or small underground fresh-water seas. Whether this theory proves accurate or not remains to be seen... after future adventurous 'Speleonauts' make their way once again into Dorr's secret caverns and toward the SOURCE of the 'alleged' underground river.

"Devil's Hole" itself contains a rare species of cave-fish found no-where else in the world (at least nowhere that marine biologists are aware of). It is reported that at least two divers disappeared in this apparently 'bottomless' aqua-cave some years ago, leading officials to put the cave under government protection by making it an extension of Death Valley National Monument -- much of which lies well BELOW sea level. The existence of, or the possibility of the existence of, such underground 'seas' beneath the California- Nevada regions seems to be supported by other accounts. During the 'Shaver Mystery' years Ray Palmer received a letter from a reader describing Earl Dorr's cave. This letter stated that three Paiute Indian boys had, with the help of a 'treasure map', extracted $50,000 worth of gold from these caverns, which they kept in the bank at Needle's, California. Their project was halted when one of the boys slipped from one of the lowest 'rock tiers' and died.

We will now quote from William R. Halliday's professional observations of the claims made in Dorr's affidavit, as they appear in his book 'ADVENTURE IS UNDERGROUND':

"...What is the gimmick?

"This was probably the question in the mind of every reader of the CALIFORNIA MINING JOURNAL when this affidavit appeared in it's November, 1940, issue. The question still arises whenever a caver first hears the remarkable story of this still more remarkable cave. Furthermore, the answers to the other obvious questions are not those which might be anticipated.

"'Is this just an imaginary cave?' No, the cave certainly exists. I have been in it.

"'Did Dorr keep it's location secret?' No. Dozens, perhaps hundreds, of people know it's exact location, high on the side of Kokoweef Peak in the Mojave Desert.

"'Has anyone tried to find this river of gold?' Yes, indeed. The prosperous Crystal Cave Mining Corporation owns the property. "'Then what is the gimmick?' That's quite a tale.

"The beginnings of the story of the cave of gold are shrouded in the mists of the minds of old-timers. For a long time, prowling prospectors have known of the existence of the wide mouth of a deep cavern on the limestone flank of a peak which forms part of the east face of IVANPAH VALLEY -- Kokoweef Peak. Even though only four miles by dirt road from the highway between LOS ANGELES and LAS VEGAS, the area was so desolate that, in the 1920's, weeks might elapse without the passing of more than an occasional prospector and his burro. The opening of the cavern was several feet in diameter and the cave was obviously much larger farther down. There were local stories that it was bottomless, although it took 'only a few seconds' for a rock to strike 'bottom'.

"Then someone found a narrow crack leading to ANOTHER cave, high on the east face of the peak. Maybe it was Dorr. The stories vary. One version repeats the common story of two Indians with a treasure map, which in this case was supposed to have showed the entrance to the cave. Dorr was well known in the area, having a claim across the valley, several miles southwest of Kokoweef Peak. Like any experienced prospector, he certainly prowled every ledge of the area. In any event, the new cave seemed even deeper than Kokoweef Cave. Like at least seven other caves in California, it eventually became known as Crystal Cave.

"Later, in 1934, another old prospector, Pete Ressler, was resting near the bottom of the southwest slope of the barren peak. He idly tossed a rock into a crack. To his surprise it rattled back and forth for a long time until the sound died away into the depths. He strapped his load on his burro and headed for Mountain Pass Station for dynamite.

"'What do you think it is, Pete?' the men at the station asked him.

"'Quien sabe?' he shrugged.

"Pete's Spanish, however, was horrible. It sounded like 'Kin Savvy' or 'Kin Sabe,' and this name stuck to the cave he dynamited open. It wasn't much of a cave. It slanted downward, but was filled with rubble (rubble from the dynamite blasts? - Branton) to a level not far below the entrance. Old Pete dropped out of the story. Dorr is the main character.

"Dorr must have been a strange person. No one else was particularly interested in the caves, but soon he was telling of an enormous cavern into which he was gradually making his way, trip after trip. The main part of the cave was a series of vertical drops from one small chamber to another. In several areas there were small, dry pools which contained sharp little crystals. From one of the small rooms a tight tunnel led a relatively short distance to a huge cavern containing a chasm 3,000 feet deep. He told of a stalactite 1,500 feet long (Note: Both Kokoweef and Door peaks are near the SW flank of the Ivanpah Mts., just south of Highway 91. Dorr alleged that he and his engineer, following the upper rock 'tiers', discovered a huge cataract or waterfall cascading down the side of the 'canyon' below what they judged to be Dorr Peak. They allegedly followed the upper 'shelves' for 8 miles. According to a map of the caves drawn by Herman Wallace Jr., under the personal instruction and supervision of Earl Dorr, the length of the 'stalactite' was given at only 500 feet long -- although this would still make it the largest "known" stalactite in the world at this writing -- and was located adjacent to the underground waterfall which flowed into the underground river at the bottom of the canyon as one of its many tributaries. - Branton).

"The cavern went on for miles. He had walked to the brink of the chasm, but had not found a way to it's bottom. There were places where air came into the cavern, so other caves on the peak must open into it. And there ought to be an entrance somewhere on his claim, too. That was the direction the cave headed.

"Before long Dorr was claiming to have found a way down the wall of the subterranean canyon. Down below the wonders were even greater. He had found great deposits of placer gold. By this time he had the other old-timers half convinced. Still, THEY weren't going into that awful-looking hole for all the gold in the U.S. Mint.

"One day in 1928 Dorr again told his friends that he was going into the cave for another trip. Two days passed, three, four. His friends became worried. Gold would not tempt them to go into the cave, but they were his friends and the code of the desert is stern. Dorr might be trapped there, hurt, dying. A rescue party climbed to the mouth of the cave, where Dorr's ropes were still fixed.

"Hardly had they all entered the cave when they met a raging Dorr they hardly know. Although disheveled and wild-eyed, he was obviously in no need of rescuing. Nervously they shrank away from his needless fury. Had he gone mad from his long stay underground? (More likely it was the dreaded 'gold fever' which has affected the minds of men throughout the centuries and has often motivated them to acts of irrational cruelty - Branton) They were trying to help him, yet he was accusing them of trying to steal his gold.

"Before they quite understood, they felt the dull impact of a HEAVY charge of dynamite. Then Dorr calmed down. 'You'll never get it now,' he smirked.

"'That blast finished the tunnel to the river of gold.' (Interesting Note: Halliday himself claims to have seen within this cave, along with several National Speleological Society or NSS members, the name of DORR written in black miner's lamp soot near what appeared to be a black line left by a dynamite fuse, below which was a plugged area of shattered rock - Branton)

"We do not know whether Dorr was ever convinced that his friends were only trying to rescue him. For several years he was a familiar figure in the Mojave Desert. Continually he attempted to persuade people to run a tunnel into the cave of gold from the lower slopes of Kokoweef Peak. He would go shares with them. If they were willing to pay for the tunnel, they could have part of the profits.

"On this basis few investors were willing to consider the project. Finally, however, a small group headed by a Los Angeles capitalist was willing to speculate on Dorr's proposition. First, they tried the easy expedients. Kin Sabe Cave was the most accessible. Dorr thought it connected with the great chasm.

"They installed an inclined railway track and began to remove the rubble which filled it. Before long they had quite a respectable cave, 125 feet deep, but the air in it was completely stagnant. Over Dorr's protests, they abandoned the attempt. If there was an entrance to the great cavern from Kin Sabe, it was too deep to bother with, at least until all easier possibilities had been investigated.

"Next they turned their attention to Kokoweef Cave, the first cavern discovered on the peak. A road was built to a nearby ledge and a short tunnel was drilled, connecting the bottom of the cavern to the surface of the peak. Again, much rubble was removed without encountering the true bottom. Operations were in full swing when someone discovered a mineral vein in the wall of the peak a few dozen yards from the tunnel. It was zinc, and high- grade ore. Because of the war zinc was at a premium. The Crystal Cave Mining Company promptly went into the zinc business. Dorr was disgusted. He abandoned the project. Occasionally someone would hear of him, still telling his story of prowling the hills near his old claim, still seeking another entrance to the cave of gold..."



** Referring to the bold text above, there are two very well documented NAVAL facilities located in these localities... John Lear exposes this interesting tidbit (Which also covers alot of info I posted here as well)

Naval Undersea Warfare Center

Navy Submarine Base Under the Nevada Desert?, page 1

Is there a possibility that the Navy does operate submarines from Monterey Bay via an underground sea which extends underneath the San Joaquin Valley, then under the Sierra Nevada mountain range to a Naval Undersea Warfare Center deep below the Nevada desert in Hawthorne Nevada?

hmmmm....

Great Salt Lake.... Hawthorne Nevada (which by the way has been experiencing a highly unusual amount of earthquakes!!! check these two threads out: Something Strange in Nevada (Earthquakes), Is Long Valley Supervolcano Activating? Swarm Just started).... San Joaquin Valley (which by the way possesses a rather extensive BRACKISH WATER (*) river delta that extends out from Stockton to... you guessed it, the San Francisco Bay!)...

(*)How, explain please, does a series of mountain spring water river systems suddenly turn brackish 150 miles inland?....

hmmmm...

It appears that somehow... a river system merges with these freshwater systems that contains a high salinity content! but... from where?

From the Buena Ventura underground river system that flows from Great Salt Lake, obviously! You with me here?

I have a theory that the river system splits, carrying an alternate system towards the Salton Sea in southern California. This junction happens right at the location of the second Naval Base, known as the China Peak Naval Weapons Testing Center, located at the Panamint Valley/ Owens valley junction...



Death Valley, CA. Entrance.

Local Indian legends speak of a tunnel that runs beneath the desert. (Note: The book "Death Valley Men," tells the story of 3 people who are supposed to have found an underground city connected with this tunnel, and who actually took treasures from it. The entrance to the Death Valley Tunnel is in the Panamint Mountains down on the lower edge of the range near Wingate Pass, in the bottom of an old abandoned shaft. The bottom of the shaft is collapsed, opening an entrance into a large tunnel system containing much treasure. These tunnels connect with the surface also through arches (like large windows) in the side of the mountain and they look down on Death Valley. They're high above the valley now, but they were once on the edge of the water, and were accessed by boats. The "windows" in the Death Valley side of the Panamint Mountains are about 4,500-5,000 feet above the bottom of Death Valley, and are across from Furnace Creek Ranch. From these openings you can see the green of the ranch below you and Furnace Creek Wash across the valley. (So, with high-powered binoculars or a telescope, you should be able to see the openings from the Furnace Creek Ranch, or Wash.) You can drive down Emigrant Canyon towards Death Valley. You can then park beside the road between Furnace Creek Ranch and the Salt Bed. (From here, the windows should be visible through binoculars.) Indian legends of the Paiutes Indians speak of the people who used to live in the Panamint's caverns.



Oasis near Death Valley fed by ancient aquifer under Nevada Test Site

So, I reinstate John Lear's question... could it be for real?....

I live about 10 miles from The Great Salt Lake. While this is an interesting read it is totally untrue and impossible.

The lake is salty because it has no outlet. The same reason many other land locked seas are salty. And it's not "brackish" which is somewhere between fresh and salt water - it has the third highest salt content on the planet. It didn't suddenly "turn" salty either, it has been a salt lake since the time of Lake Bonneville. The map in your link identifies the river with the following text "Supposed river between the Buenaventura and the Bay of San Francisco - Which will probably be the communication between the Atlantic and the Pacific." which indicates that this survey was partly based on rumor and not actual exploration. The 23 years between this map and a true survey that proved that no outlet existed is a short time for a river to dry up - though not impossible.

I'm not going to link you to a bunch of articles to explain what we learned in elementary school Earth Science, but you can fact check my above statements.

Also, The Great Salt Lake is at an elevation over 4000 feet. If there were a river it would be flowing toward the Pacific and would be a fresh water lake.. It's been a salt water lake for tens of thousands of years. I can't say whether or not there is a far inland, underground reservoir being used as a super-secret port, but I would say it's highly unlikely.

Interesting read nonetheless.

Very interesting read so far. Book marking to finish later. I might say that I would not be surprised if the Navy knows of such underground rivers!

Fascinating material!

This was a great read.

S&F

reply to post by Backslider

And it's not "brackish" which is somewhere between fresh and salt water

I never said that GSL is brackish, I stated that the San Joaquin river Delta is Brackish, and that possibly from an underground source that has a high salinity content.

Regards 'land locked' lakes and so forth, you seem to forget that GSL was once a part of a vast ocean that covered that area - and Nevada and Southern California, interestingly, for millions of years. The depths of Bonneyville Salt Flats layers of crystaline rock salt (similar to Salton Sea's, but denser) should tell you as much.

It was the rapid uplift of the Colorado Plateau that locked GSL inland, similar to San Gabriel's uplift and it's capture of Salton Sea.

However, regarding impossible, Let's not forget the impact of the Chixalub Meteor, which literally shattered the western half of North America and most of Central America. Like Central America is noted for it's Cenotes, The Western U.S. may too be eventually found to be legendary for it's shattered western Continental Shelf

Mountain, stream, lake, ocean.

The hydrological cycle was always like this till man made dams and interfered.

I do remember seeing some old Spanish maps from the early 1700's which did show a water inlet stretching North from the Gulf of California (Sea of Cortez) all the way to Nevada. But not up to Utah.

This is where the "Lost ship of the desert" legend comes from. The legend goes that a Spanish ship had sailed up the inlet to Lake Cahuilla around 1615. But the water level dropped enough that the ship could not sail back out. So it was beached and the ship's crew walked for the nearest Spanish settlement.

This makes sense because Lake Cahuilla no longer exists. It was estimated to have taken over 50 years to completely dry out after the water inlet was naturally diverted. On maps made by the railroad in the 1800's, the lake was gone. But on the maps, they referred to the area as the "valley of the ancient lake".

Nowadays, a portion of Lake Cahuilla is now home to the Salton Sea, which was accidentally created in 1905.

Now did the Great Salt Lake connect to the Pacific in 1800? No it did not.

reply to post by allenidaho


You see... I just don't understand why Scientists just don't survey the damn continental shelf to see if this possibility is true... Has anyone heard of them doing anything of this nature?

I havent. Almost seems like something out of a Jules Vern novel lol...

reply to post by Heyyo_yoyo


The map itself reads "supposed river?"

reply to post by GogoVicMorrow


There are a lot of ancient maps showing the whole of California as an Island:

reply to post by Heyyo_yoyo


No massive ocean. It was a land locked sea, called Lake Bonneville. I mentioned this in my response.

So much of the "evidence" in the OP is rambling and has no relation to what you are claiming that I kind of lost track of what evidence is supposed to be supporting what part of this ridiculous theory.

reply to post by EartOccupant


I would say a lot of those maps came about by people traveling between the baja california peninsula and rest of the US and then misinterpreting it when making the map.

reply to post by GogoVicMorrow


YOu could be right, but if you look at the rest of the map, other than the sections that say unknown, the mapping looks pretty acurate. So, it does make you wonder why the California island?

Really interesting OP, S and F for you. Always thought it was strange that the China Lake Naval Weapons Station was way out in the middle of the Mojave, being Naval and all. I do get that they do a lot practice stuff so the desert is good for that, but still.

reply to post by Heyyo_yoyo


There was a movie i saw in my childhood, that touch on this subject, undergound connections of rivers in cali.,that lead to the pacific, it mention a map donated my a local spanish don, this was a 1955ish movie, check out the flick called (the monster that challaged the world) with Tim Holt.

reply to post by Allenidaho

The 'scientists' HAVE surveyed the underground river. I was stationed at Naval Air Facility, China lake 1971, 1972. This is the aviation facility responsible for supporting Naval Weapons Center China Lake. While there, I became friends with an old desert rat named Pappy Walker. ( Charles Walker to the Navy ). Pappy owned China Lake Auto Salvage, one of two local wrecking yards. I eventually worked in the yard for Pappy on a part-time basis.
During our numerous hours together, Pappy had an eager ear for his stories about his experiences in the desert.
He had been in the area since the 20's, and was one of the local people contracted by the Navy to help build the base in 1942 or 43. After the war, he maintained his good standing with the Navy, winning the contract to remove junk vehicles, as well as the occasional ' odd job ' that he was called on to perform.
One of these ' odd jobs ' was eliminating the problem of standing water on the base golf course. This was in the very early '50's, after the base had matured and become THE center for Naval weapons development. Naturally, there were quite a few egg-heads and VIPS constantly in residence, so the Navy installed a golf course for them. When the lawns and greens were watered, there were a couple of areas where the water would collect, and it inconvenienced the golfers to a large degree. The base contracted Pappy to fix the problem, which he set out to do by drilling drainage sumps in the low areas, covered by metal grates of mesh fine enough not to swallow golf balls. On one of the holes, at a depth of about 12 to 15 feet, his auger suddenly broke through into an underground cavern and started to free-wheel wildly. Pulling the drill out of the hole and investigating, Pappy realized that he was staring down into an underground river ! He immediately reported same to the people he was working for, and it caused quite a stir.
Over the ensuing months, the river was surveyed and found to flow generally from north to south/southwest. It came out from the mountains to the north, crossed the valley, and then ran under the mountains to the south and on to parts unknown. The water was tested and found to be sparkling and pure. The Navy immediately built facilities to draw the water for the base from this river. It eventually supplied ALL of the water used by the base, and as far as I know, still does.
Pappy was awarded a healthy bonus by the Navy for his discovery. You see, it effectively ended water rationing/conservation and was an enormous savings in the cost of water for the facility, because prior to Pappy's discovery every drop of water consumed by the base HAD TO BE TRUCKED IN FROM THE OUTSIDE !
None of this was general knowledge on the base, by any means. I happened to have the privilege of learning of it from the central character involved. Irony : Pappy told me about this after I asked him about his 1921 White chain-drive water truck stored in the back of the yard. He laughed and told me about the insane amounts of money that he and other contractors had made over the years by hauling water for the base, prior to his discovery !
Has anyone who has seen this base ever wondered where the water to supply such an enormous facility came from IN THE MIDDLE OF THE MOJAVE DESERT ?

reply to post by GogoVicMorrow
When you consider that Naval Weapons Center China Lake was built during WW2, it should be obvious why it was way out there in the middle of the desert. Think about the effective combat range of Japanese bombers, then look at the map.
Quite simply, it put the base out of range of any conventional attempt by the Japanese to bomb it. One-way Kamikaze attacks might possibly have succeeded, but these were not to appear until later in the war, when Japan began to feel the noose tightening.
Timet ( Titanium Metals ) and the city of Henderson were built in the southwest end of the Las Vegas valley for this very same reason.
During those early days of the war the Japanese enjoyed an over-all air capability that was a serious concern in the planning and placing of any defense-related installations. The City of Henderson was originally built to house the people who worked for or supported the Timet facility. War paranoia was such that the original streets of the city were built in a crazy, twisting maze in the hope that such a configuration would confuse and spoil the aim of any potential enemy bombardiers. Go to GoogleEarth and see an aerial view of Henderson. You can still see this laughable attempt at subterfuge to this day !