Why I believe all Christians are agnostic

I believe all those who claim to be Christians are truly agnostic, even if it be just a little bit.

Part 1
While there are much joys, pleasures, and happiness in this life, there is also much pain and suffering. I think everyone can agree on that but if not I can give sources.

Part 2
There is no pain and suffering in heaven. I have verses to back this up, here is one selection.

Revelation 7 (NIV)
And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore,
“they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne
will shelter them with his presence.
16 ‘Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat down on them,’
nor any scorching heat.
17 For the Lamb at the center of the throne
will be their shepherd;
‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’
‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’”

Part 3
You can commit suicide and still go to heaven. A common misconception is that suicide is a sin and you can't repent after you die therefore you can't enter heaven if you kill yourself. Part of that is true, according to the bible suicide is a sin. Also, its quite obvious that once you're dead you cant repent. But if you're a Christian than you already did repent, not for specific sins but for being an imperfect creature. So you ask Jesus/God to take the suffering for those sins; past, present, and future. Once you ask god into your heart, believe that he exists and Jesus is his son, and confess that you are a sinner you will go to heaven no matter what (according to the bible).

The following verses demonstrates that it's not your actions that determine your future, rather God himself determines that.

Ephesians 2 (NIV)
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

This next verse demonstrates that one receives the grace of god by believing in him and asking him into your heart, and that this grace cannot be lost.

John 5 (NIV)
24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Conclusion
This is what causes me to believe that Christians have doubts that there is an afterlife and it's as the bible claims. If they truly believed, then they would eventually kill themselves to meet Jesus sooner and to rid themselves of the suffering of this life.

I could see how some could argue that the fact that suicide is a sin is what prompts them to not kill themselves. My counter-argument is that the bible clearly states that all humans are imperfect and will sin and will give in to temptations (You might say that suicide isn't tempting but if you truly believe in a perfect heaven than suicide would be the ultimate temptation)

However, if you did manage to convince me that there are reasons that you wouldn't kill yourself other than doubts about your faith in Jesus and the bible, there are other things that most (if not all) Christians do that still leads me to this conclusion. All things to protect your life from danger; ie: wearing seatbelts, suggest that you have doubts that you will go to a perfect heaven after you die.

Disclaimers:
1. I realize this argument may apply to many other religions, however I have not as intensely studied any other religions, so I choose to focus specifically on Christianity.

2. I am an atheist, I don't believe in an afterlife, therefore I must emphasize that the point of this message is not encourage anyone to kill themselves. I value this life dearly, as I believe it's the only one we have. The purpose of this thread is to encourage those who claim Christianity to examine their faith closer.

reply to post by Josonic


Agnostic Definition : A Person who doubts truth of Religion.

Isn't that's why its called Faith? Defintion of Faith: Institution to express belief in a divine power.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I myself am Agnostic.

And don't confide in any Religion from Earth.

Ya, thats a interesting debate to have. Sort of like, if you know the next room has everything you want, why are you hanging around in this room sort of thing...The door is already open, all you have to do is step through it, you can not lose the key by walking through it...so, what holds you back...

Hows that? Fitting with what you were talking about.

Something you do miss though, is that when you're gnostic, of anything, rationalization becomes a problem. You'll have christians rationalize away what you've said, because they have to be right, but that can't be right.

Wow, that's just plain silly. You are making the assumption that everyone who believes should be so narcissistic that they should/would only be concerned with their own satisfaction and relief from difficult or painful situations and if not, they don't truly believe? That's a fairly arrogant and dismissive assumption.

What about the concept of character? What about the idea that they truly might be concerned for others? What about concept that, "having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; and perseverance, character; and character, hope."

You are building up a straw man then knocking him down. "If the really believed this, then they would do that." Perhaps it's the exact opposite, because they really believe, they don't yield to the desire to leave this life, understanding that this life does have purpose and there is a plan. The Apostle Paul explained this well to the Corinthian Church:

For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. 6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. 9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him.

Paul wasn't afraid to die, in fact his every action displayed a fearless disregard for his own personal safety, so that he would in no way compromise the message. His motivation was not a self seeking personal satisfaction, but what he truly believed was accountability to a infinite power and authority that had a particular plan in mind for him. As he defended and proclaimed this particular message, It did indeed eventually cost him life.

I agree that suicide is a sin that is in fact covered in the atonement, but just as I have no right to take another life, I have no right or authority to take my own. We live in the best of all possible worlds, even with the damage of the fall, believing that a greater peace awaits some where in no way alleviates me of my responsibilities in this present age, just to merely satisfy some selfish desire to be at peace and free from the ravages of the fall. And because I believe I have a purpose and responsibilities, you have the gall to presume this is a "sign" of lack of faith in the afterlife?

I will confess that I am quite often weary of this world, and as I see the havoc wrought by the onset of age and infirmity in the elder folks I know, I often struggle with at what point is it acceptable to give up and pass on. I have even as of late been by the side of devout folks who knew it was the time to move on, refused any further assistance from the medical field (medical assistance that merely prolonged death, as opposed to giving life) and passed from this life in confidence and peace.

But because they waited for God's time, and not their own, this is, in your reasoning, an indication of lack of faith? I think it's an affirmation of it.

reply to post by quadagent


If you believe in a better place than life, whether or not you call it narcissistic, it's a very relevant point.

But why do you have a sense of responsibilities to others, when they'd all be better off dying to? Why not do what you can to hasten your death(even without suicide), and convince them to do the same?

I don't understand.

reply to post by quadagent


Much of what you say makes little sense. First of all, I never said they'd only be concerned with ridding themselves of pain and suffering, I said it'd be the greatest temptation, and that surely most would fall into that temptation as most do with all temptations...the only difference between killing yourself to go to heaven and getting drunk is you only have to fall into the temptation once with killing yourself

You also mention some random things about concept of character and hope and perseverance....those things wouldn't matter the slightest in heaven.

You made one decent point and that was one might not try to reach heaven immediately because they care for others, I assume by this you mean that you want to try to convert as much people as possible....but do you, do you devote your life to trying to convert people?

Originally posted by xxsomexpersonxx
reply to post by quadagent

 

If you believe in a better place than life, whether or not you call it narcissistic, it's a very relevant point.

But why do you have a sense of responsibilities to others, when they'd all be better off dying to? Why not do what you can to hasten your death(even without suicide), and convince them to do the same?

I don't understand.

It's something that's truly going to be hard to explain if we're not working on the same page, and without belief in an infinite authority, then there is absolutely no common ground.

I'm finite, I don't know who would be better off dying, and since I can't know the heart of anyone but my own, how can I possibly presume to know another? And in this fundamental belief system that I have, it is in this life that certain choices are made that have eternal consequences. I will defer elaborating, since someone might perceive me pulling out a soapbox already.

I know you probably won't understand this concept, dismiss it out of hand, and more than likely disparage it, but my life is not my own to give away. I was bought with a price. Again, I don't expect you to understand, agree, or even receive it without disdain. I will be called away from this life when the purposes for me existing in this life have been satisfied...but again, since I am finite, and definitely not omniscient I must defer to the one who I believe is and His purpose and plan. I know it sounds like I'm preaching, but I'm trying my best not to come off that way.

That's why it's called belief, but I truly am sorry that it is so hard to understand, and I truly wish I was more glib at presenting this hope that I have, and this confidence that I perceive in a purpose for this present life in a way that was more understandable.

Much of what you say makes little sense. First of all, I never said they'd only be concerned with ridding themselves of pain and suffering, I said it'd be the greatest temptation, and that surely most would fall into that temptation as most do with all temptations...the only difference between killing yourself to go to heaven and getting drunk is you only have to fall into the temptation once with killing yourself

So you've never heard of a believer committing suicide, hmmm? With that said, what is so hard to understand that most believers, even those who fall into sin, perceive that our witness matters. I absolutely understand believers fall into sin, but what kind of witness would it represent if we believed that there is an infinite being, omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent, and yet had so little trust in Him to say "I don't trust your timing, or purpose regarding infinite matters, so you know what, I'm in charge here." That's only one aspect of what I'm alluding to regarding concern for others.

You also mention some random things about concept of character and hope and perseverance....those things wouldn't matter the slightest in heaven.

Why not? Because we'll be sitting on clouds playing harps? I believe that since we will always be finite, yet in the presence of the infinite, that the development of who we are as being will have no end. Our being, who we are at our most fundamental is not "absorbed into the collective" but continues on and I'm confident that the extent of growth and knowledge that we will be enjoying will extend into an eternity that we are completely unable to comprehend given our current physical and spiritual limitations. But that's just me.

You made one decent point and that was one might not try to reach heaven immediately because they care for others, I assume by this you mean that you want to try to convert as much people as possible....but do you, do you devote your life to trying to convert people?

edit on 7/31/2011 by Josonic because: (no reason given)

Trying to convert as much people as possible. Why do I see this as bait, but I'll bite.

Here's what I believe; God is sovereign and man is fully accountable. Tough one, huh? I wish I was bright enough to reconcile the two, but many, many much brighter men than me have tackled that one and come out bruised and battered.

What I mean by God is sovereign and yet man is accountable is best explained by me trying to win a chess game against my Chessmaster program. Albeit I'm not the best chess player in the...house, but here is what happens...every time; I make every move in accordance with my own free agency (note, NOT free will...different things and I'll explain) and yet no matter how many choices I make, merely because I have limitations (I'm an awful chess player, i.e. the limitations of my free agency) I end up being checked. It's inevitable, and yet in most cases the ChessMaster program doesn't force my hand. I make choices, some ok, most not so good and I end up with my king compromised and trapped. I end up where the chess program intended me to be, in checkmate and yet I made decisions, based upon my capabilities.

That's what I understand is the difference between free agency and free will. Man's will has been so compromised by the fall that free will is merely free agency, the ability to only work within the confines of a fallen nature that will always make bad or selfish choices without intervention.

Why the long explanation? Because I believe that I can convert no one. Period. But in no way does that grant me immunity from responsibility towards the one I believe I should represent as best as I possibly can regarding what I believe, and towards everyman. I have to make the moves that I believe are right, within my limitations or I do a disservice to myself, my fellow man and my God. I must represent my life as if it was all up to me, and yet trust that in fact it is all up to God. And do so with the grace towards all men that I believe I have been given.

Let me grant you this. If you define agnostic as one who does not know, I agree. I don't know for a fact what I believe is in fact the true nature of the universe, mans state before an infinite being or anything for that matter.

I don't know that, it is what I believe, I believe it is the truth and with that understood, I believe I inherit an accountability and responsibility to represent that believe as best I know how, as long as I am able, with meekness and compassion towards all men.

Originally posted by quadagent
I believe that since we will always be finite

Where did you learn that we are finite. That is to say, I completely agree with you, but the bible doesn't. The bible clearly states (repeatedly) that life is eternal whether it be carried out in heaven or in hell. Do I even need to post verses for that??

I don't know for a fact what I believe is in fact the true nature of the universe, mans state before an infinite being or anything for that matter.

You could've just said that and not added all the useless information. You, just like most other Christians, don't try to reach heaven quicker, because you have doubt heaven exists. You don't want to risk everything to try and reach heaven quicker in case there is no heaven at all.

You could've just said that and not added all the useless information. You, just like most other Christians, don't try to reach heaven quicker, because you have doubt heaven exists. You don't want to risk everything to try and reach heaven quicker in case there is no heaven at all.

I often forget where I once was myself and how little regard I harbored for a system that I just didn't understand or believe in, I apologize. But with that aside, I absolutely have no fear of annihilation, but that's not my point.

If the presentation of the nature of eternal things were so overwhelming, so undeniable so iron-clad, would that be faith? Would that be hope? Would that be choice or accountability? Doubts are a fundamental component of faith, how could it be otherwise? If you have known someone or believe that someone can't be a believer and still harbor doubts, you probably need to re-evaluate what you understand about believers. Trust, belief, faith, confidence all have a component of doubt, otherwise they would be something quite different. Just sayin.

reply to post by Josonic


Star and flag, a really good post, Josonic, and a profound thought you are having here. I agree with your philosophy on this matter. I am a Wiccan, sort of, I do not practice, but have certain beliefs just as any other religion does. I will spell them out. I believe in an Afterlife that is the same for everybody. There is only one way to access it, and two avenues you can follow. You can go into The Light. The Light, being an intelligent machine, can send you to a large variety of Heavens and Vallaha, and Summerland, and places so old you will not recognize them at all. Your choice, or just go for the default, as most so, and be recycled into human life again, after a period I believe is near 100 Earth years. This is the true 4th Dimension, we know it as The Ether. I like to call it, The Nexus. Sound good to me, and fits, if you think Trekkie like I do. There is no conception of Time here.

The OP is exactly correct, the Nexus/4th Dimension/Afterlife is for everyone. Those who commit suicide are sent back immediately. We are not supposed to do that. I do believe in extreme cases, where the body is so wracked with illness and pain is unbearable, this immediate return does not apply.

The Catholic/Christian/Muslim Heavenly Abode is a Concept, not a reality, unless, that is, you work the Light Machine as I told about above, and you better know what you are doing. Mess with this kind of high technology with an ignorant mindset, you might send yourself to a place you do not like.

I can say these things because I have had direct contact with three people from there in recent years. I of course questioned each one on how this works, and then a "friend" from another dimension of time and space kind filled in the blanks for me.

It is not known who built the machinery, or even how old it is, exactly. It is known that it has worked, to further develop and evolve Spirits for a few billion years or more. Perhaps the one everyone thinks of as "GOD" built it, long ago.

The True Divine is not hard to find, all one needs to do is look inside. just look inside yourself, and find that which is the Sophia: Goddess and Shakti of Christ: kundalini awakening, freeing the Goddess: Transfiguration She is kind, loving, and nurturing, and is Within Yourself, not "out there" someplace that cannot be found, and barely can be imagined. I am talking about the Divine Self, the "I AM!" that is the first creative word. (There are more, many more!)

The Afterlife is a great thing, all of your dead relatives are there, doing what they loved to do in life. Everyone, except the little children, appear to be 30 Earth years old, and have no health problems or disability's, all are completely healthy. ?You can eat, and drink here, but do not have to. Most are dressed, the human bodies and clothing are from inner memories of life before. When I saw my Grandfather, he was dressed in green work clothes, I think they were Osh Gosh brand. Two button pockets on the shirt, slit pockets on the pants, which fit loosely. He had on a black leather belt with a shiny brass CSA belt buckle that had belonged to his Grandpa in the Civil war. Another man I knew well in life, a man named Richard, was dresses in sloppy short sleeve shirt and pants that bagged down on his rather fat frame. Richard was a big pot head, and we used to smoke all the time together. He said to be, "We are going to have a good time, man, and we are going to get so high!" Then he took a toke, and was gone. I am certain that a Christian, a Muslim, a Jew, a Buddhist, and a Wiccan can all sit down together, remember....."the Lion shall lay with the Lamb."

This is something to be looked forward to, but not to be rushed into. I tried to hurry it along, forced my pineal gland, and upgraded my DNA slightly ahead of time, and now this frail human body fails me, it hurts all the time, and is sick a lot. I know that home is but a short wait now. In Spirit, I will again be young and strong, and powerful. In many ways, I cannot wait, but know I have to. Something is coming that I am commanded to see. I do not know what it is, I just loosely call it, "The Event."