View on soldiers? US and UK troops.

Not sure if this was already mentioned but you have a duty to disobey any immoral or illegal order. You better be able to articulate why you disobeyed in a VERY clear amd convincing manner but you are in no way duty bound to follow illegal or immoral orders.

reply to post by 35Foxtrot


Sounds like im repeating myself.
Have you been in such a situation?

Nope,didnt think so.....

Thank you for another useless reply.

Just to throw my hat ino the ring, of all the posters on here who are arguing that troops do not deserve supporting because they follow orders, where are you ?

How is it YOU haven't all risen up against your governments who have given the orders ?

Because this is the issue, you have no right to act as concientious observers, when push comes to shove you are not willing to rise against your own people in power who instigate the wars you so vhemently disagree with.

Personally I support the troops, don't think I would ever be brave enough to do it, of course war is wrong, but its human nature, not everyone can agree, them is the breaks!

But I wouldn't diss the troops for following orders, because push come to shove until I rise up against the order giving war mongers, what room whould I have to comment.

reply to post by solargeddon


Thank you and very well said.

Its seems we are all the same....
Troops following orders from Govenments.
The public following orders from Govenments.

Untill everyone understands that us "the people" have control of what happens we will never end the hated.

We are all told and what to think........we are the generation of anti-courage.(bitchs)

reply to post by EpicKingy


Did you sign up voluntarily?
Did you know that after signing up you would not be able to exit easily?
Do you have problems excepting responsibility for your actions?
Do you have a problem with people who contradict your ideals?
Did you make this thread to only see the opinions of people who agree with you?

Originally posted by EpicKingy
(1) We didnt choose to go there
(2) We didnt choose to fight the middle east
(3) We didnt chose to "push* our western ways unto them
(4) Under the oath of alliance (British) we should fight whoever is a threat.

But you chose to join and as such I'm afraid you get no respect from me....enjoy your time as an enabler for the Military-Industrial Complex.

Soldiers disgust me.

reply to post by EpicKingy


I, for one, support our troops 100%. What I don`t suopport is the cause. Capitalism is not a reason for war. Of course there are some bad apples in the bunch but most, I am convinced, are good people. But what has me at an impass is you know you are puppets but still you enrole and serve. Forgive my naivity but how can you go on fighting for the corporations when you know that what you are doing is exactly that? That said, be safe and fight the good fight.

Originally posted by EpicKingy
Believe me and many other soldiers.We dont believe in this blood/oil war but some of us have nothing else..

US and UK soldiers hate the idea of fighting a fake war

What a load of rubbish. A single person in the UK can easily make enough money to survive. If what you claim is true then half of Britain would be in the military.

You're no better than a hitman. A criminal, just following orders from your bosses.

Originally posted by EpicKingy
reply to post by BrianC

 

Do you understand anything about the military?
And how it is to leave it?

I guessed not...

If you have a constuctive comment to make then make it shown.

Relatively easy to leave. I know about 20 lads who've left in the last few years without issue.

Originally posted by EpicKingy
reply to post by BrianC

 

Would be more impressive if you said that comment into a solders/veterans face!

See how you would do sunshine?

Threatening physical violence on people. You're really showing how innocent British troops are.

And lol at this farce idea that soldiers are all fighting machines being repeated once again. I've played Rugby for about 10 years and trained MMA for the past year, I reckon I'd do alright against a sizable chunk of British soldiers.

Certainly from all the soldiers I know being able to fight in hand-to-hand combat certainly isn't a prerequisite

Originally posted by justwokeup
The people in the military are professionals acting out the will of the British public.

Wrong. The British people opposed and still oppose the occupation.

Just needed to correct you. The people in the military are acting AGAINST the will of the British public. In effect they're pissing on British Democracy

I have respect and support for Matthis Chiroux, Adam Kokesh, Bradley Manning, and Ethan McCord.
I have respect and support for individuals, but I will not support a group that is fighting for the profit of corporations, and international bankers whether they like what they're doing or not, I will not support or have respect for a person using flimsy excuses like:

*I was just following orders.
*You don't understand because you've never been in that situation.

And I will not support or have respect for person who thinks killing is a superior macho accomplishment.

I agree with most of the ideals in this video:
www.youtube.com...

Originally posted by solargeddon
Just to throw my hat ino the ring, of all the posters on here who are arguing that troops do not deserve supporting because they follow orders, where are you ?

How is it YOU haven't all risen up against your governments who have given the orders ?

Because this is the issue, you have no right to act as concientious observers, when push comes to shove you are not willing to rise against your own people in power who instigate the wars you so vhemently disagree with.

Personally I support the troops, don't think I would ever be brave enough to do it, of course war is wrong, but its human nature, not everyone can agree, them is the breaks!

But I wouldn't diss the troops for following orders, because push come to shove until I rise up against the order giving war mongers, what room whould I have to comment.

Actually we did. Millions of Britons descended on the streets in protest. The protest was ignored.

What did you want to happen? The protesters to start a war on the streets, because if they did the same soldiers in here talking themselves up would be there guns in hand shooting down their own brothers and sisters.

The soldiers saw that Britain was against the war, but chose to ignore us for their next paycheck. They had the support of the British people at the time, they should have done the right thing and protested themselves. But they didn't because they're just following orders. Right?

Your argument is basically "The soldiers are good because atleast they're doing something, why don't normal people rise up against their government?"... I'll tell you why, because these same soldiers would KILL us

reply to post by NadaCambia


I think you missed the point of my post, the people on this thread, the very ones who are here sat at their computer, how many of them, went and marched in protest.

Of course the protest wouldn't work, it was a minority voice, it wasn't an entire national uprising, which is the only way any sort of dent would be made.

Of course whilst people such as yourself are afforded the luxury of being able to sit at your computer with a little less fear than others, it becomes easy to spout utopic notions, fact is reality just isnt that pretty.

And yes your right if enough of us were to uprise and worry the governments into turning our troops against us, of course they would follow their orders, then again who knows, because if the OP viewpoint s to be considered then perhaps maybe just maybe, they may join with the voice protest, if not then I guess thats when you have to pick sides.

Persnally I'll be finding a little sanctuary, as survival comes before everything in my book

It was determined via the Nuremberg Trials that simply "following orders" is no longer an excuse.

Governments are to blame for putting you in a position where you are being forced to protect yourselves but the troops themselves are to blame as well. In the US, troops are governed by the laws of Land Warfare and it clearly states that it is not only their right but their duty to disobey illegal, immoral and otherwise unlawful orders.

I support the troops in disobeying these illegal orders. The civilian population will stand behind and support these soldiers. Otherwise, you should be viewed as a criminal as the Nazis were then and as the izraelis are now.

Originally posted by EpicKingy
reply to post by 35Foxtrot

 

Sounds like im repeating myself.
Have you been in such a situation?

Nope,didnt think so.....

Thank you for another useless reply.

Yes, in fact I have. Nothing really secret squirrel in nature just my company commander diverting military property in Kosovo. I refused to go along with a convoy he had set up and placed me in command of. Don't go making baseless assumptions about people you know zilch about. It'll come back and bite you. If you'd like any further information, screw yourself.
"Useless." right.

Originally posted by gladtobehere
It was determined via the Nuremberg Trials that simply "following orders" is no longer an excuse.

Governments are to blame for putting you in a position where you are being forced to protect yourselves but the troops themselves are to blame as well. In the US, troops are governed by the laws of Land Warfare and it clearly states that it is not only their right but their duty to disobey illegal, immoral and otherwise unlawful orders.

I support the troops in disobeying these illegal orders. The civilian population will stand behind and support these soldiers. Otherwise, you should be viewed as a criminal as the Nazis were then and as the izraelis are now.

edit on 31-7-2011 by gladtobehere because: (no reason given)

Thank you.
Get ready for your reply to be labeled "useless," by this limey wannabe. The more he types the more he proves he doesn't deserve the respect and honor "real" soldiers" do. I'm starting to doubt he is even in the military of any nation. Maybe some RPG or XBOX jerk-off fest, but real soldier? Doubt it.

OP, this support and respect question is one that has newly affected me. Having learned about WW2, I always believed that our troops were there to defend our allied countries and did a bangup job. Now though, I'm not as confident that they wouldn't follow an order to round me up, detain and even kill me if told to do so. And I can thank the Bush gang for that feeling, and I'm not even American! I do know that in a flood or natural disaster, they are sent in to help and it's much appreciated. So in peacetime and past wars, there was nothing like them. Utter repect and support.

Those who followed the Nuremberg trials and the trials at La Hague are, (IMO-- therefore correct me if I'm wrong here) the only times a superior officer has been held accountable in a meaningful way. Otherwise, Abu Grahib (sp?) has shown us that the low person on the totem pole is the one who is going to get the heat. That places the soldier in a catch-22 situation, IMO, whether mental or actual, it is leaderless passing the buck. So military accountability has now flown out the window. And our trust that we all shared the same values fell off the cart then and there.

On a personal level, killing another human requires a level of justification I don't possess, unless someone tries to harm my family, my neighborhood or my country. I do know that most soldiers want to be respected and appreciated. The current difficulty with that is that people are waking up to the propaganda the government and top brass are trying to sell us, such as the Libyan situation. I am not proud that my country is involved, that my voice goes unheard, and that Libyan families are being torn up and killed because our military has been sent there and told to perceive them as the enemy. So I do respect a troubled soldier who questions.

If he joins up before being able to realize what is involved, he or she is vulnerable to being used, because a young lad does not consider the consequences of his choices and actions till he is older, as the human brain is not fully developed until 25. So for people to pick on someone for choices made at a young age is not quite fair to him. Neither is it fair to the ones he's defending if he goes off half-cocked to a war situation, unless accountable leadership is restored.

reply to post by EpicKingy


I respect your sacrifice. I'd respect you more for unionizing and demanding progress.

reply to post by EpicKingy


You know, I didn't even think to try & chum up a bit. We are vets of the same armed conflict(s) after all.

I deployed to Iraq in '03 & '04 in/around Baghdad. Deployed to Afghanistan in '06 & '07 where I spent part of it in Panjwai, after which I moved north & covered down on Tagab Valley. Went back in '09 thru '10 & basically operated in Kunar's Pech River Valley. Not much else worth adding in this or any other ATS forum, aside that I left military service not long after my last campaign for reasons that concern foreign policy.

Never had a chance to work with the British. Actually, I did for ~ 5 weeks in 1997. It was before your government handed control of Hong Kong over to the Chinese government.

Effectively, I worked with the Royal Marines & Royal Navy patrolling Hong Kong harbor. Unfortunately there was only so much the British command would let me do, e.g. they didn't want an injured or dead American on their hands. That basically left me at the command center of the naval vessel which, well I wasn't too crazy about that bit.

I do have one anecdote you may find humorous. Prior to conducting training with a Gurka contingent, I'd gone out the night before with my British counterpart, Corporal Stanley, & gotten stupid drunk. Whatever possessed me to do such a thing the night before a training exercise ... stupid superman youth I suppose. But I loaded up early the next morning on a Wessex helicopter (I believe that was the aircraft's nomenclature) to get to the training camp.

During the sortie I was notified by Corporal Stanley that we were being re-routed to pick up the British Ambassador to Hong Kong, along with a 3 or 4 star British General. By that time I was sweating profusely & holding my breath, doing all I could to not vomit. We landed, the Ambassador & General loaded up right across from me, & off we went.

I vaguely recall looking at Corporal Stanely with an expression of, hmm, concern. I recall too that the Ambassador & General were eyeballing me as well. Not necessarily because I was an American, but rather that I wreaked of alcohol & looked to be on the verge of dying. Nonetheless there we were flying about thru choppy winds &, despite my best effort, I vomitted all over the aircraft floor where the Ambassador's & General's shoes happen to be.

Was I embarassed? Oh yeah. Though I may have been young, dumb, & full of [censored], it did not escape my attention that vomitting on a British Ambassador's shoes would not be without consequence. As for the consequence, it could have been worse. I received a fairly nasty stateside phone call from my command & adminstrative punishment for being intoxicated while on duty. I didn't serve out that punishment until I arrived back in the states, though it did include a significant amount of painting, yard work, lavatory clearning, floor buffing, et cetera.

Good times, good times. Well, I suspect there will be some who deride me for any number of reasons now, but whatever. I shared this story from a sense of comradre & understanding. If someone's fragile sensitivities happens to be piqued because of it, my olive branch is plain enough: Go pound sand.

What about you? Got any good stories? Nothing quite like a "so there I was" story of the military type.

Take it easy.