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PEGASUS: Primitive Peoples Describing the Technologically Advanced
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I've often wondered if Pegasus wasn't really a horse at all, but about more primitive peoples using animal terms to describe a more advanced
civilization.
For example, when Europeans came to America and invented the train-- more primitive Native Americans called the train "The Iron Horse." Could the same also be true with Pegasus? Could Pegasus represent some form of an invention of a more advanced society described in terms of primitive peoples?
When looking at Europe during the Last Glacial Maximum, most of mainland Europe is inhabited by a group of people who would paint caves with wild horses. I like to call them "Equuis Cavepeoples". They lived in the caves and the wild horse seemed to represent some form of an afterlife. These Equuis/Horse Cavepeoples exist in Greece, Italy, Sicily, Spain, France and even the British Isles. There's cave paintings everywhere of these wild horses by the group that lived in caves.
And since that's true...then if such primitive cavepeoples saw technological inventions of more advanced groups LIKE A SHIP...then they would describe the ship in terms of HORSES, just as Native Americans described trains in terms of horses--"The Iron Horse."
DOES PEGASUS HAVE THE CHARACTERISTICS OF A SHIP?
In all mythology of Pegasus, Pegasus is the offspring of Poseidon. Which is interesting that the God of the Sea gave birth to this type of horse. If it were truly meant to be a land animal--a real horse-- then it should be some land-ruling deity that gave birth to the animal.
If Pegasus was a horse that WAS BORN OF WATER, then it's highly likely that primitive cavepeoples in Greece were describing ships in terms of horses. Does Pegasus ever really leave the water?
That sounds more like the perspective of primitive cavepeoples looking over a mountain cliff at a ship and how the ship sails into the horizon...looking like the "end of the world" which is really the great sea. Where the sea meets the sky.
In nearly all early descriptions of Pegasus, the mythical horse never leaves the foam of Poseidon. (which is different from some of the Classical Greece rewrites of legends involving Pegasus). If Pegasus is born from the sea and never leaves the foam of Poseidon, springs out of the foam of Poseidon, or rides the foam of Poseidon....then Pegasus is a ship.
AND THE WINGS...WHAT ARE THE WINGS?
What are the wings on this horse that springs out of the foam of Poseidon--the sea? SAILS! If you are a primitive caveman and you live in a cave, paint horses in caves and you see a sailboat....then you too would claim it to be "a horse from Poseidon, the sea, with wings".
The wings of this horse, born of Poseidon the sea, would be the sails from the boat flying in the wind.
WHO INVENTED THE SAILBOAT PEGASUS? WHO IS THE PRIMITIVE GROUP DESCRIBING IT IN TERMS OF HORSES? AND WHERE ARE THEY BOTH FROM?
By all descriptions of Pegasus, it is the Medusoi/Medusaeus or the Gorgones that had the sailboats. And I think at some point between different languages and dialects of different people that it is a translation error between two languages that caused Pegasus and Medusa/Gorgones to be singularized. If one group had a language suffix ending that meant "plural" and another group used the same suffix ending to indicate "singular"-- then a fleet of Pegasoi sailboats would become singularized into one horse. And a group of people called the Gorgones/Medusoi/Medusaeus, would be singularized into one woman named Medusa.
Who are the Gorgones? They are a matriarchical group with a female queen who rules. They worshipped the snake goddess of medicine. In areas that worshipped this old serpent goddess, they will usually place their serpents over the top of the doorways of their homes to protect their homes. They would also place their serpents on the heads of their ships to protect the ships and scare away others.
The Gorgones are one of many groups in the Aegean, Mediterranean and Atlantic that worshipped this serpent goddess deity. She is also worshipped on the island of Crete for thousands of years. Some call her Titan Rhea, which is very different from Classical Greece Rhea. Since Zeus comes from the island of Crete, his mother would be the fierce serpent goddess worshipped on that island for thousands of years...Titan Rhea. But after Zeus-worship rises up and becomes popular, Rhea his mother is reduced from her fierce serpent qualities to nothing but her motherly qualities as giving birth.
Where are the Gorgones from? And I've tried to figure this out for awhile and I've got several theories. The Gorgones are said to be near the region of Hades (the "underworld") and near the land of the golden apples (aka. pears). Hades region of rule might have been in north Africa, the "underworld" from the perspective of Europe...like perhaps the former city along the coast of Carthage before it sunk.
The land of the golden apples "pears"-- that's the easy part. That's in the Adriatic Sea. Spanning the entire coast from Albania through Croatia, the people there have had a tradition thousands of years old where for each person born--they plant a pear tree. So there's pear trees "golden apples" in every city for each person born. Even if war and fire has ravashed the region over and over again--the people still have the tradition. They still plant a pear tree (golden apple) for each person born.
So...the Gorgones would either have to be from one of the islands in the Adriatic Sea, one of the islands in the Ionian Sea...or if you really want to stretch it (which is probably stretching it too far) maybe even Sicily or a nearby island. It is doubtful that Sicily is the island as other legends that talk of the Gorgones say that they lived near Sicily--the land of the red cow.
There's also legend about the Gorgones in the Aegean. Could it be an Aegean island and a 2nd Adriatic/Ionian colony for the same group? Don't know. Haven't quite figured it out yet. But all ideas are welcome.
Who are the primitive cavepeoples describing sailboats in terms of winged horses from Poseidon the sea and where are they from?
The Equuis (horse) cavepeoples describing these sailboats seem to all originate in Pelopponesus, through Corinth and Boetia. It may very well be different groups who had similar stories that all got combined into one.
REWRITING THE MYTH OF PERSEUS IN TERMS OF LITERALISM
So if Perseus captured a Pegasus, then Perseus captured a Gorgone Sailboat. What was the "Kracken"? The Kracken is a sea monster with many arms that rises out of the sea to kidnap people. ANOTHER BOAT! Only the group of people who have that boat are slave traders that "swallow up" people and livestock. The Kracken is a rowboat since it has many arms. In Greek mythology there's even stories about sea monsters with "200 arms" and "100 heads" which would be like a trireme boat. They have slaves below that row the boat.
Trireme War Ships
Trireme Ships: Wikipedia
If Perseus used the sailboat Pegasus with the "head of Medusa" to destroy the Kracken--a trireme row boat, then he rammed the boat. The head of Medusa, or the serpent goddess emblem would be at the front of the boat as a protectorate. An emblem of a head of snakes at the front of the boat to protect the boat and scare away others.
Perseus rammed the Kracken-trireme boat with a stolen Gorgon sailboat with the head of Medusa as an emblem at the front of the boat. And the Kracken-trireme boat crumbled and fell to pieces at the bottom of the sea.
For example, when Europeans came to America and invented the train-- more primitive Native Americans called the train "The Iron Horse." Could the same also be true with Pegasus? Could Pegasus represent some form of an invention of a more advanced society described in terms of primitive peoples?
When looking at Europe during the Last Glacial Maximum, most of mainland Europe is inhabited by a group of people who would paint caves with wild horses. I like to call them "Equuis Cavepeoples". They lived in the caves and the wild horse seemed to represent some form of an afterlife. These Equuis/Horse Cavepeoples exist in Greece, Italy, Sicily, Spain, France and even the British Isles. There's cave paintings everywhere of these wild horses by the group that lived in caves.
And since that's true...then if such primitive cavepeoples saw technological inventions of more advanced groups LIKE A SHIP...then they would describe the ship in terms of HORSES, just as Native Americans described trains in terms of horses--"The Iron Horse."
DOES PEGASUS HAVE THE CHARACTERISTICS OF A SHIP?
In all mythology of Pegasus, Pegasus is the offspring of Poseidon. Which is interesting that the God of the Sea gave birth to this type of horse. If it were truly meant to be a land animal--a real horse-- then it should be some land-ruling deity that gave birth to the animal.
Pseudo-Hyginus, Fabulae 151 (trans. Grant) (Roman mythographer C2nd A.D.) :
"From Medusa, daughter of Gorgon, and Neptunus [Poseidon], were born Chrysaor and horse Pegasus."
Ovid, Metamorphoses 6. 119 ff :
"As a bird [Poseidon mated with] the snake-haired mother of the flying steed [i.e. Medousa mother of Pegasos]."
Nonnus, Dionysiaca 11. 142 ff (trans. Rouse) (Greek epic C5th A.D.) :
"Quickwing Pegasos threw Bellerophontes and sent him headlong down from the sky, although he was of the seed of Earthshaker [Poseidon] and the horse himself shared the kindred blood of Poseidon."
from Theoi.com
If Pegasus was a horse that WAS BORN OF WATER, then it's highly likely that primitive cavepeoples in Greece were describing ships in terms of horses. Does Pegasus ever really leave the water?
Pseudo-Hyginus, Astronomica 2. 18 (trans. Grant) (Roman mythographer C2nd A.D.) :
"Constellation Horse. This sign Aratus and many others have called Pegasus, offspring of Neptunus [Poseidon] and the Gorgon Medusa . . . As he [Bellerophon] was attempting to fly to heaven, and had almost reached it, he became terrified looking down at the earth, and fell off and was killed. But the horse [Pegasos] is said to have flown up and to have been put among the constellations by Jove [Zeus]."
from Theoi.com
That sounds more like the perspective of primitive cavepeoples looking over a mountain cliff at a ship and how the ship sails into the horizon...looking like the "end of the world" which is really the great sea. Where the sea meets the sky.
In nearly all early descriptions of Pegasus, the mythical horse never leaves the foam of Poseidon. (which is different from some of the Classical Greece rewrites of legends involving Pegasus). If Pegasus is born from the sea and never leaves the foam of Poseidon, springs out of the foam of Poseidon, or rides the foam of Poseidon....then Pegasus is a ship.
AND THE WINGS...WHAT ARE THE WINGS?
Whether Hesiod considered Pegasus as a winged horse, cannot be inferred with certainty from the word apoptamenose; but Pindar, Euripides, and the other later writers, expressly mention his wings.
from Theoi.com
What are the wings on this horse that springs out of the foam of Poseidon--the sea? SAILS! If you are a primitive caveman and you live in a cave, paint horses in caves and you see a sailboat....then you too would claim it to be "a horse from Poseidon, the sea, with wings".
The wings of this horse, born of Poseidon the sea, would be the sails from the boat flying in the wind.
WHO INVENTED THE SAILBOAT PEGASUS? WHO IS THE PRIMITIVE GROUP DESCRIBING IT IN TERMS OF HORSES? AND WHERE ARE THEY BOTH FROM?
By all descriptions of Pegasus, it is the Medusoi/Medusaeus or the Gorgones that had the sailboats. And I think at some point between different languages and dialects of different people that it is a translation error between two languages that caused Pegasus and Medusa/Gorgones to be singularized. If one group had a language suffix ending that meant "plural" and another group used the same suffix ending to indicate "singular"-- then a fleet of Pegasoi sailboats would become singularized into one horse. And a group of people called the Gorgones/Medusoi/Medusaeus, would be singularized into one woman named Medusa.
Pseudo-Hyginus, Astronomica 2. 18 (trans. Grant) (Roman mythographer C2nd A.D.) :
"Pegasus, offspring of Neptunus [Poseidon] and the Gorgon Medusa, who on Helicon, a mountain of Boeotia, opened up a spring by striking the rock with his hoof. From him the spring is called Hippocrene."
Ovid, Metamorphoses 5. 254 ff (trans. Melville) (Roman epic C1st B.C. to C1st A.D.) :
"Helicon, the Musae’s mountain home. Alighting there she [Athena] stopped and thus addressed the learned sisters [the Mousai] : `there has reached my ears a tale of a new fountain that burst forth beneath the hooves of flying Medusaeus [Pegasos].
from Theoi.com
Who are the Gorgones? They are a matriarchical group with a female queen who rules. They worshipped the snake goddess of medicine. In areas that worshipped this old serpent goddess, they will usually place their serpents over the top of the doorways of their homes to protect their homes. They would also place their serpents on the heads of their ships to protect the ships and scare away others.
The Gorgones are one of many groups in the Aegean, Mediterranean and Atlantic that worshipped this serpent goddess deity. She is also worshipped on the island of Crete for thousands of years. Some call her Titan Rhea, which is very different from Classical Greece Rhea. Since Zeus comes from the island of Crete, his mother would be the fierce serpent goddess worshipped on that island for thousands of years...Titan Rhea. But after Zeus-worship rises up and becomes popular, Rhea his mother is reduced from her fierce serpent qualities to nothing but her motherly qualities as giving birth.
Where are the Gorgones from? And I've tried to figure this out for awhile and I've got several theories. The Gorgones are said to be near the region of Hades (the "underworld") and near the land of the golden apples (aka. pears). Hades region of rule might have been in north Africa, the "underworld" from the perspective of Europe...like perhaps the former city along the coast of Carthage before it sunk.
The land of the golden apples "pears"-- that's the easy part. That's in the Adriatic Sea. Spanning the entire coast from Albania through Croatia, the people there have had a tradition thousands of years old where for each person born--they plant a pear tree. So there's pear trees "golden apples" in every city for each person born. Even if war and fire has ravashed the region over and over again--the people still have the tradition. They still plant a pear tree (golden apple) for each person born.
So...the Gorgones would either have to be from one of the islands in the Adriatic Sea, one of the islands in the Ionian Sea...or if you really want to stretch it (which is probably stretching it too far) maybe even Sicily or a nearby island. It is doubtful that Sicily is the island as other legends that talk of the Gorgones say that they lived near Sicily--the land of the red cow.
The Hippokrene was the spring of the Mousai (goddess Muses) on Mount Helikon in Boiotia. It was said to have burst forth beneath the hoof of the winged horse Pegasos.
from Theoi.com
There's also legend about the Gorgones in the Aegean. Could it be an Aegean island and a 2nd Adriatic/Ionian colony for the same group? Don't know. Haven't quite figured it out yet. But all ideas are welcome.
Who are the primitive cavepeoples describing sailboats in terms of winged horses from Poseidon the sea and where are they from?
Pausanias, Description of Greece 5. 17. 7 (trans. Jones) (Greek travelogue C2nd A.D.) :
"[Amongst the scenes depicted on the chest of Kypselos dedicated at Olympia :] Oinomaos is chasing Pelops, who is holding Hippodameia. Each of them has two horses, but those of Pelops have wings."
"After Bellerophon had tried and suffered much to obtain possession of Pegasus for his fight against the Chimaera, he consuited the soothsayer Polyidus at Corinth."
from Theoi.com
The Equuis (horse) cavepeoples describing these sailboats seem to all originate in Pelopponesus, through Corinth and Boetia. It may very well be different groups who had similar stories that all got combined into one.
REWRITING THE MYTH OF PERSEUS IN TERMS OF LITERALISM
So if Perseus captured a Pegasus, then Perseus captured a Gorgone Sailboat. What was the "Kracken"? The Kracken is a sea monster with many arms that rises out of the sea to kidnap people. ANOTHER BOAT! Only the group of people who have that boat are slave traders that "swallow up" people and livestock. The Kracken is a rowboat since it has many arms. In Greek mythology there's even stories about sea monsters with "200 arms" and "100 heads" which would be like a trireme boat. They have slaves below that row the boat.
Trireme War Ships
Trireme Ships: Wikipedia
If Perseus used the sailboat Pegasus with the "head of Medusa" to destroy the Kracken--a trireme row boat, then he rammed the boat. The head of Medusa, or the serpent goddess emblem would be at the front of the boat as a protectorate. An emblem of a head of snakes at the front of the boat to protect the boat and scare away others.
Perseus rammed the Kracken-trireme boat with a stolen Gorgon sailboat with the head of Medusa as an emblem at the front of the boat. And the Kracken-trireme boat crumbled and fell to pieces at the bottom of the sea.
reply to post by MapMistress
Very good and well thought out theory S&F,
The evidence you have shown forms a puzzle of fine detail and could very well be a logical explanation of the true picture of a mythological history. Defiantly worth more investigation. Bravo.
Very good and well thought out theory S&F,
The evidence you have shown forms a puzzle of fine detail and could very well be a logical explanation of the true picture of a mythological history. Defiantly worth more investigation. Bravo.
Thanks everyone for your comments. I really appreciate the feedback as I'm coming up with this theory and building on it.
BUILDING ON THE PEGASUS-SERPENT SEA MONSTER THEORY
The premise is that Pegasus myth might be rooted in primitive peoples (cavemen) describing the technology of another group (Serpent emblem ships) in terms of animal stories. So I dug around in some of the other sea myths in Greek mythology to see if any other mythological creatures fit the pattern too. And I came up with a list.
Ekhidna
Ekhida, a sea monster, also resembles a primitive description of a sailboat with serpent emblems in terms of animals. She was born of Phorkys (sea god) and Keto (sea goddess) associated with marshes and the sea that was said to have been born during a deluge-flood. She is a sea monster that has the head and breast of a woman that looks like a dragon or serpent with wings (sails). -- This one and the next two make me rethink the myths about dragons-- a serpent with wings.
Ladon
A sea monster that resembles a large serpent emblem ship with a bunch of people on it. Born of the sea, he was said to have 100 heads and would stand guard in the sea and he spoke in some human language with a bunch of voices.
Typhon
Resembles another large serpent emblem ship with a bunch of people on it. Typhon was said to have 100 heads and 200 arms. In the descriptions of the sea beast, the heads and arms were human until the thighs, which sounds like 100 people were all standing on deck and the entire rim of the ship had serpent emblems. He was wings (sails) and this one was said to have fire or red hot rocks--possibly some form of a weapon like a canon. In Greek mythology, the origin of Typhon is Mt. Etna--a volcano in Sicily.
The Graiai
This might be three different boats that are smaller. But the description evades me as "one single eye" and "one tooth". The eye might be some form of telescope or parascope and the descriptions contend that it is some form of covered boat (no sun, no moon). In all myths, the Medusa ship is nearby or some other larger ship is nearby. The three are born from the sea and considered "sea demons" from the foam of the sea (boats) shaped like swans with serpents (boat emblems). The three might be scouting boats of some sort and/or smaller outlook-guard boats.
Scylla & Charybdis
Might be more of a guard raft or guard buoy with people on it. Some kind of sea post. It has 12 feet, 6 necks, 6 heads and 6 mouths. Born of the sea, the two reside near two rocks in the sea. In the myths, the type of heads change but they are always animals: serpents, dogs, dolphins, wolverines, crabs. The waters around Ausonia (Naples) in the Tyrrhenian Sea, the waters all around the island of Sicily in the Mediterranean and the waters of the "Underworld" are primarily where all of these "sea monsters" are found. And they seem to kidnap men (an Amazon-like group) if any other boat comes too close.
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LOCATIONS OF THE MYTHS OF WINGED SEA HORSES & SERPENT SEA MONSTERS
In nearly all of the myths, it tends to be Greek tribes from Pelopponesus describing the sea of the South Aegean (Crete & Cyclades islands), describing the Ionian Sea, describing the Adriatic Sea, describing the section of the Mediterranean around Sicily and the Tunisia-Libya coast, and/or the Tyrrhenian Sea. So these south Greek tribes (descended from cavemen land groups) would be describing island/sea Greek tribes. Remember, the Greeks are groups of united tribes and each tribe tends to have a different story of origin. So yes, it is possible for a more primitive Greek tribe to be describing a technologically advanced Greek tribe.
TIMEFRAME OF THE ORIGIN OF THE MYTHS
Most Greek myths began as oral stories that were passed on for generations (thousands of years) by word-of-mouth. Over time, the stories became embellished and taken out of context. Then they were written down. And each myth usually has rewrite after rewrite-- in many cases changing the deities in the original story. For example, just about every myth written about the Titan sea god Porkys or the Titan sea goddess Keto was rewritten to omit the name Porkys and Keto and replace it with Poseidon and Zeus. Then some myths were rewritten again to even omit Poseidon and just replace Poseidon with Zeus.
To determine the timeframe of a myth in origin, one has to find out if it is a rewrite and which deities were originally associated with the myth. Those deities also can determine origin as certain deities were only worshipped by certain Greek tribes.
Chronology of the Greek Deities & When in Time Their Worship Began
Goddess Gaia comes first in chronology. It was said that she gave birth to the earth, the sky, the animals and humans. She is an old idea of "Mother Earth" who is shared by many different races-- not just the Greeks. Even Native Americans crossing the Bering Strait into America at the Last Glacial Maximum believed in Mother Earth/Gaia. Therefore any myth in Greek mythology, any monster, any animal, any sea demon who is said to have been born of Gaia is a myth that originates between the timeframe of the Last Glacial Maximum (or before) to the Younger Dryas.
So if Gaia is the mother of the animal or monster, the timeframe of the origin of the myth is c. 12,000 B.C.E. (or before) to c. 8500 B.C.E.
Second in the chronology is Rhea, her daughter. Rhea rose up and took Cronus (the sky) as her husband. This happened after great floods and earthquakes which would be the melting phase after the glacial maximum. Rhea can be tracked from the island of Crete where she is the primary deity on the island. Titan Rhea is a more fiercelike goddess-- a serpent goddess. And on Crete, one of her most prominent islands of worship her serpent emblems are found over the door of every household to protect each home and on ships to protect each ship. Crete was colonized around the middle of the 8th millenium B.C.E. And Rhea-serpent goddess worship doesn't diminish until Zeus-worship begins on the island which is after the 1450 B.C.E. earthquake. (different archeologists have different estimates of the same great earthquake). Any deity that is labelled a "Titan" comes from the timeframe of the reign of Rhea and Cronus. That includes sea gods/goddesses like Porkys and Keto.
So if Rhea with her fierce serpent qualities is reigning with Cronus the sky, the timeframe of origin of the myth is 8500 B.C.E. to 1450 B.C.E.
Third in the chronology is Zeus, son of Rhea. Born on Crete, Zeus began as a mere crop god on the island who began to hold lightning bolts as his primary weapon. From Crete, Zeus-worship moved to mainland Greece. Zeus is actually a very young deity in terms of the other Greek gods and goddesses. In fact, Poseidon worship of Zeus' "brother" might actually be older by a thousand years. Zeus as a Cretan crop god with lightning bolts didn't appear on the island until after the BIG Cretan earthquake estimated to have happened c. 1450 B.C.E.
So if Zeus is the deity giving birth to another god/goddess or creature, the timeframe of origin of the myth is 1450 B.C.E. to Classical Greece times.
But be careful on Zeus-origins of myths. During Classical Greece, those who worshipped Zeus wanted to get rid of the Titan deities and they did so be rewriting just about every myth to try and contend that Zeus was the father. Most of the stories about Zeus allegeding raping other deities are part of the rewrites and not the original origin of a myth. Zeus-worship didn't exist when the other deities (Titan deities) had been around worshipped for thousands of years. So any story of Zeus that begins with a rape or sexstory is usually a rewrite and there will be a 2nd story pertaining in origin to either a Titan deity or one during Gaia's reign.
Poseidon worship might be older than Zeus worship by a thousands years-- so about 2500 B.C.E.
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SERPENT BOAT PEOPLES & THEIR ORIGINS
They originate from the Aegean Sea and their main deities were Rhea, in her Titan serpent form, along with Cronus the sky. They spread just about everywhere on the coast and island by boat. They cremate their dead which makes it sometimes difficult to track them. Serpent Boat Peoples are also difficult to track because the Roman Catholic Church (not the Romans themselves, but post-Christian Rome) tried to erase their origins simply because the Catholic church who had a misunderstanding about these people's religions erased all serpent imagery because they equated it with the "devil." Just to clear the air here-- the serpent is also a symbol of medicine and there are many different serpent deities associated with healing and medicine so the groups worshipping serpent deity aren't the "devil" as the idiotic Catholic church contends.
They originate primarily in the Cyclades islands and Crete and spread into coastal regions in the Saronic gulf, the Argolic gulf. In the east direction, serpent boat groups spread to the island of Cyprus, to coastal Levant, coastal Palestine, coastal/delta Egypt then into the coast of the Red Sea. To the west direction, serpent boat groups spread to the Ionian coast, into coastal Adriatic Sea region, to Sicily, the Mediterranean coastal region around Sicily and into the coast of the Tyrrhenian Sea.
Since Serpent Boat Groups cremated their dead--they are easier to track by the origins of their plants and crops since they had agriculture. For example, if one wants to track a serpent boat group who colonized the Tyrrhenian Sea coast-- then they need to take a good look at the plants-crops of the group to determine which island or Aegean coast they might have begun from. Many plants are endemic to certain islands or certain coastal regions. Plants-crops of the group denote origin.
The Pegasus myth & Serpent Sea Monsters myth is told by primitive Greek tribes in Pelopponesus, specifically the Ionian Sea region.
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/f7a17bdf5797.gif[/atsimg]
I dropped the coastlines in the Ionian Sea map to minus -60 meters to show what was mainland and what was coastline when the Serpent Boat groups began colonizing the coast of the region. The coast might even be at minus -70 meters when Serpent boat groups were colonizing the coast, but for the sake of the myths being born I'll put the coastlines at -60 meters instead. Note that during the birth of the myths, when cavemen in Pelopponesus were still living in caves at the same time as the Serpent Boat groups were colonizing the coast that there's only 3 islands in the Ionian Sea: Paxoi, Kefalonia and Zakinthos.
At the time of the origin of the Serpent Sea Monsters-Pegasus myth Leukas is still connected to the mainland and Korfu is still connected to the mainland. This is important because the island of Korfu boasts and claims to be the "Home of Medusa". Which cannot be the case because Korfu doesn't become an island until about -40 meters (c. 3250 B.C.E.). Human Medusa is far older than that and Pegasus-Sea Monster myth is thousands of years older than Korfu becoming an island. It may be that a Serpent Boat group colonized the former coast of Korfu before it became an island and the inhabitants created a later-cult to Medusa mistaking the serpent goddess for Medusa. But in all myths of Human Medusa, she comes from an island near the Underworld, near Hesperides, near Erytheia. So Korfu cannot be the island as Korfu doesn't fit the location nor was it an island at the time of the birth of the myth-legend.
Cavemen cease to live in caves altogether by c. 5000 B.C.E. in Greece at which point the coastal groups had taught the inland cavemen agriculture. And some of the boat groups of different origins would kidnap the cavemen tribes and take them to other regions as slaves.
The Pegasus legend & sea monster legends name places in the middle Mediterranean, whether coastal Africa, Sicily or Tyrrhenian.
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Serpent Boat Groups from different islands colonized Sicily...and Sicily's coastline when they colonized was very different. Despite 2000 years of attempts of the Roman Catholic Church trying to erase the history of the peoples of Sicily, the descendants of the Sicani & Siculi still maintain that they originate from a boat group--that they arrived to Sicily by boat thousands of years ago. The Roman Catholic Church lies and claims that they were still cavemen when the Romans arrived. The Romans didn't exist until c. 400 B.C.E. and clearly the boat groups colonizing Sicily brought plants endemic to other islands when they colonized Sicily c. 6000 B.C.E. (or before- give or take 500 years) So the descendants of the Sicani & Siculi were telling the truth about their origins and the Romans and the Catholic church are lying about them.
Pertaining to Pegasus myth, Medusa myth, Gorgones myth & Serpent Sea Monsters myth-- Most of the regions described as the origin of the animals-monsters come from the region of the Mediterranean around Sicily, Tunisia & Libya.
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Human Queen Medusa's island is said to be close to the Underworld, near Erytheia. Early Greek writers associated Erytheia with Sicily and King Eryx of West Sicily. Later Greek writers tried to label Erytheia in Spain. We'll ignore the later Greek writers (trying to rewrite the legend with Zeus & changing the locations) and stick with the early Greek writers.
Thrinakia & Erytheia are the same island-- the place where the red cattle of Geryon are herded. And Thrinakia is the island of Sicily, mainly the western region, but most likely the region that sunk.
Both Ekhidna & Typhon, serpent boats with 100 people on them come from the island of Sicily. So without a doubt-- Sicily has all sorts of serpent boat groups who colonized it. The Kraken-- a triereme war ship comes from the Underworld, near Libya. So that would be from the former coast of Tunisia-Libya and the peoples who lived there.
So its a war. Definitely those of the Underworld or the group living there sent a warship to Argos in Pelopponesus demanding the Princess. And Perseus, the hero, goes to Libya and islands trying to get another ship...a ship capable of combating the Kraken warship. The only group with the technology to combat a Kraken warship would be the Serpent Boat groups of Sicily and the islands to the south.
So a group of people living off the former coast of Libya-Tunisia declared war on Greece and its coastal cities sending their Kraken triereme warship.
The Gorgones & Human Queen Medusa were said to be on a small island nearby-- an island that was claimed by Poseidon the sea. So it has to be an island which had a coastline that sunk by 2500 B.C.E. And an island close to the Underworld that was conquered by them even though originally being colonized by the same Serpent groups that colonized Sicily. So that gives the choices of Malta, Lampedusa, Linosa or Lampione. Pantelleria island is disqualified because the sea (Poseidon) never claimed it--Pantelleria didn't really sink.
Pegasus (the sailboat), Medusa's serpent ship strong enough to do battle with a Kraken triereme has to come from one of the 4 islands. Wish I knew which one. I'm thinking Malta which has underwater caves similar to what is described in mythology as Medusa's lair-- even an underwater cave that stretches for 35 meters long down to a depth of 50 meters below sea level. But as yet, most of the divers on Malta are only diving to a depth above 40 meters which isn't deep enough for the legend. There's a possible Roman-era temple underwater at -8 meters that might have been another deity's temple before Romanized. But as of yet, no divers going deep enough to account for a Human Queen Medusa coastline which I would range between -40 meters to -60 meters...if indeed Malta is the Medusa island at all. But that's my best educated guess after I've mapped hundreds of underwater cities, islands and coastlines.
BUILDING ON THE PEGASUS-SERPENT SEA MONSTER THEORY
The premise is that Pegasus myth might be rooted in primitive peoples (cavemen) describing the technology of another group (Serpent emblem ships) in terms of animal stories. So I dug around in some of the other sea myths in Greek mythology to see if any other mythological creatures fit the pattern too. And I came up with a list.
Ekhidna
Ekhida, a sea monster, also resembles a primitive description of a sailboat with serpent emblems in terms of animals. She was born of Phorkys (sea god) and Keto (sea goddess) associated with marshes and the sea that was said to have been born during a deluge-flood. She is a sea monster that has the head and breast of a woman that looks like a dragon or serpent with wings (sails). -- This one and the next two make me rethink the myths about dragons-- a serpent with wings.
Hesiod, Theogony 295 ff (trans. Evelyn-White) (Greek epic C8th or C7th B.C.) :
"But she [Keto]bore [to Phorkys]another unmanageable monster like nothing human nor like the immortal gods either, in a hollow cave. This was the divine and haughty Ekhidna, and half of her is a Nymphe with a fair face and eyes glancing, but the other half is a monstrous serpent (ophis), terrible, enormous and squirming and voracious, there in earth's secret places. For there she has her cave on the underside of a hollow rock, far from the immortal gods, and far from all mortals. There the gods ordained her a fabulous home to live in which she keeps underground among the Arimoi, grisly Ekhidna, a Nymphe who never dies, and all her days she is ageless."
Ekhidna in Greek Literature
Ladon
A sea monster that resembles a large serpent emblem ship with a bunch of people on it. Born of the sea, he was said to have 100 heads and would stand guard in the sea and he spoke in some human language with a bunch of voices.
Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca 2. 113 (trans. Aldrich) (Greek mythographer C2nd A.D.) :
"An immortal serpent guarded them [the golden apples], the child of Typhon and Ekhidna, with one hundred heads which spoke with voices of various types."
Ladon the Drakon in Greek Literature
Typhon
Resembles another large serpent emblem ship with a bunch of people on it. Typhon was said to have 100 heads and 200 arms. In the descriptions of the sea beast, the heads and arms were human until the thighs, which sounds like 100 people were all standing on deck and the entire rim of the ship had serpent emblems. He was wings (sails) and this one was said to have fire or red hot rocks--possibly some form of a weapon like a canon. In Greek mythology, the origin of Typhon is Mt. Etna--a volcano in Sicily.
Antoninus Liberalis, Metamorphoses 28 (trans. Celoria) (Greek mythographer C2nd A.D.) :
"Typhon was the son of Ge, a deity monstrous because of his strength, and of outlandish appearance. There grew out of him numerous heads and hands and wings, while from his thighs came huge coils of snakes. He emitted all kinds of roars and nothing could resist his might."
Hesiod, Theogony 820 ff (trans. Evelyn-White) (Greek epic C8th or C7th B.C.) :
"Typhoeus; the hands and arms of him are mighty, and have work in them, and the feet of the powerful god were tireless, and up from his shoulders there grew a hundred snake heads, those of a dreaded drakon, and the heads licked with dark tongues, and from the eyes on the inhuman heads fire glittered from under the eyelids: from all his heads fire flared from his eyes' glancing; and inside each one of these horrible heads there were voices that threw out every sort of horrible sound, for sometimes it was speech such as the gods could understand, but at other times, the sound of a bellowing bull, proud-eyed and furious beyond holding, or again like a lion shameless in cruelty, or again it was like the barking of dogs, a wonder to listen to, or again he would whistle so the tall mountains re-echoed to it."
Typhon in Greek Literature
The Graiai
This might be three different boats that are smaller. But the description evades me as "one single eye" and "one tooth". The eye might be some form of telescope or parascope and the descriptions contend that it is some form of covered boat (no sun, no moon). In all myths, the Medusa ship is nearby or some other larger ship is nearby. The three are born from the sea and considered "sea demons" from the foam of the sea (boats) shaped like swans with serpents (boat emblems). The three might be scouting boats of some sort and/or smaller outlook-guard boats.
Nonnus, Dionysiaca 25. 64 ff :
"He [Perseus] laid ambush for the sentinel eye of Phorkys, the ball of the sleepless eye that passed from hand to hand, giving each her share under the wing of sleep in turn."
Aeschylus, Prometheus Bound 791 ff :
"When you have crossed the stream that bounds two continents press on, over the surge of the sea, toward the east where the sun stalks in flame, to the Gorgonean land, Kisthene. There live Phorkys' aged virgin daughters, in shape like swans, possessing one eye and one tooth between the three; beings on whom no ray of sun ever looks down, nor moon at night. And close to them their three winged sisters . . . the snake-haired Gorgones."
The Graiai in Greek Literature
Scylla & Charybdis
Might be more of a guard raft or guard buoy with people on it. Some kind of sea post. It has 12 feet, 6 necks, 6 heads and 6 mouths. Born of the sea, the two reside near two rocks in the sea. In the myths, the type of heads change but they are always animals: serpents, dogs, dolphins, wolverines, crabs. The waters around Ausonia (Naples) in the Tyrrhenian Sea, the waters all around the island of Sicily in the Mediterranean and the waters of the "Underworld" are primarily where all of these "sea monsters" are found. And they seem to kidnap men (an Amazon-like group) if any other boat comes too close.
Homer, Odyssey 12. 54 ff (trans. Shewring) (Greek epic C8th B.C.) :
Inside lives Skylla, yelping hideously; her voice is no deeper than a young puppy's but she herself is a fearsome monster; no one could see her and still be happy, not even a god if he went that way. She has twelve feet all dangling down, six long necks with a grisly head on each of them, and in each head a triple row of crowded and close-set teeth, fraught with black death. Sunk waist-deep in the cave's recesses, she still darts out her head from that frightening hollow, and there, groping greedily round the rock, she fishes for dolphins (delphines) and for sharks (kynes) and whatever beast (ketos) more huge than these she can seize upon from all the thousands that have their pasture from loud-moaning Amphitrite. No seaman ever, in any vessel, has boasted of sailing that way unharmed, for with every single head of hers she snatches and carries off a man from the dark-prowed ship.
Skylla in Greek Literature
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LOCATIONS OF THE MYTHS OF WINGED SEA HORSES & SERPENT SEA MONSTERS
In nearly all of the myths, it tends to be Greek tribes from Pelopponesus describing the sea of the South Aegean (Crete & Cyclades islands), describing the Ionian Sea, describing the Adriatic Sea, describing the section of the Mediterranean around Sicily and the Tunisia-Libya coast, and/or the Tyrrhenian Sea. So these south Greek tribes (descended from cavemen land groups) would be describing island/sea Greek tribes. Remember, the Greeks are groups of united tribes and each tribe tends to have a different story of origin. So yes, it is possible for a more primitive Greek tribe to be describing a technologically advanced Greek tribe.
TIMEFRAME OF THE ORIGIN OF THE MYTHS
Most Greek myths began as oral stories that were passed on for generations (thousands of years) by word-of-mouth. Over time, the stories became embellished and taken out of context. Then they were written down. And each myth usually has rewrite after rewrite-- in many cases changing the deities in the original story. For example, just about every myth written about the Titan sea god Porkys or the Titan sea goddess Keto was rewritten to omit the name Porkys and Keto and replace it with Poseidon and Zeus. Then some myths were rewritten again to even omit Poseidon and just replace Poseidon with Zeus.
To determine the timeframe of a myth in origin, one has to find out if it is a rewrite and which deities were originally associated with the myth. Those deities also can determine origin as certain deities were only worshipped by certain Greek tribes.
Chronology of the Greek Deities & When in Time Their Worship Began
Goddess Gaia comes first in chronology. It was said that she gave birth to the earth, the sky, the animals and humans. She is an old idea of "Mother Earth" who is shared by many different races-- not just the Greeks. Even Native Americans crossing the Bering Strait into America at the Last Glacial Maximum believed in Mother Earth/Gaia. Therefore any myth in Greek mythology, any monster, any animal, any sea demon who is said to have been born of Gaia is a myth that originates between the timeframe of the Last Glacial Maximum (or before) to the Younger Dryas.
So if Gaia is the mother of the animal or monster, the timeframe of the origin of the myth is c. 12,000 B.C.E. (or before) to c. 8500 B.C.E.
Second in the chronology is Rhea, her daughter. Rhea rose up and took Cronus (the sky) as her husband. This happened after great floods and earthquakes which would be the melting phase after the glacial maximum. Rhea can be tracked from the island of Crete where she is the primary deity on the island. Titan Rhea is a more fiercelike goddess-- a serpent goddess. And on Crete, one of her most prominent islands of worship her serpent emblems are found over the door of every household to protect each home and on ships to protect each ship. Crete was colonized around the middle of the 8th millenium B.C.E. And Rhea-serpent goddess worship doesn't diminish until Zeus-worship begins on the island which is after the 1450 B.C.E. earthquake. (different archeologists have different estimates of the same great earthquake). Any deity that is labelled a "Titan" comes from the timeframe of the reign of Rhea and Cronus. That includes sea gods/goddesses like Porkys and Keto.
So if Rhea with her fierce serpent qualities is reigning with Cronus the sky, the timeframe of origin of the myth is 8500 B.C.E. to 1450 B.C.E.
Third in the chronology is Zeus, son of Rhea. Born on Crete, Zeus began as a mere crop god on the island who began to hold lightning bolts as his primary weapon. From Crete, Zeus-worship moved to mainland Greece. Zeus is actually a very young deity in terms of the other Greek gods and goddesses. In fact, Poseidon worship of Zeus' "brother" might actually be older by a thousand years. Zeus as a Cretan crop god with lightning bolts didn't appear on the island until after the BIG Cretan earthquake estimated to have happened c. 1450 B.C.E.
So if Zeus is the deity giving birth to another god/goddess or creature, the timeframe of origin of the myth is 1450 B.C.E. to Classical Greece times.
But be careful on Zeus-origins of myths. During Classical Greece, those who worshipped Zeus wanted to get rid of the Titan deities and they did so be rewriting just about every myth to try and contend that Zeus was the father. Most of the stories about Zeus allegeding raping other deities are part of the rewrites and not the original origin of a myth. Zeus-worship didn't exist when the other deities (Titan deities) had been around worshipped for thousands of years. So any story of Zeus that begins with a rape or sexstory is usually a rewrite and there will be a 2nd story pertaining in origin to either a Titan deity or one during Gaia's reign.
Poseidon worship might be older than Zeus worship by a thousands years-- so about 2500 B.C.E.
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SERPENT BOAT PEOPLES & THEIR ORIGINS
They originate from the Aegean Sea and their main deities were Rhea, in her Titan serpent form, along with Cronus the sky. They spread just about everywhere on the coast and island by boat. They cremate their dead which makes it sometimes difficult to track them. Serpent Boat Peoples are also difficult to track because the Roman Catholic Church (not the Romans themselves, but post-Christian Rome) tried to erase their origins simply because the Catholic church who had a misunderstanding about these people's religions erased all serpent imagery because they equated it with the "devil." Just to clear the air here-- the serpent is also a symbol of medicine and there are many different serpent deities associated with healing and medicine so the groups worshipping serpent deity aren't the "devil" as the idiotic Catholic church contends.
They originate primarily in the Cyclades islands and Crete and spread into coastal regions in the Saronic gulf, the Argolic gulf. In the east direction, serpent boat groups spread to the island of Cyprus, to coastal Levant, coastal Palestine, coastal/delta Egypt then into the coast of the Red Sea. To the west direction, serpent boat groups spread to the Ionian coast, into coastal Adriatic Sea region, to Sicily, the Mediterranean coastal region around Sicily and into the coast of the Tyrrhenian Sea.
Since Serpent Boat Groups cremated their dead--they are easier to track by the origins of their plants and crops since they had agriculture. For example, if one wants to track a serpent boat group who colonized the Tyrrhenian Sea coast-- then they need to take a good look at the plants-crops of the group to determine which island or Aegean coast they might have begun from. Many plants are endemic to certain islands or certain coastal regions. Plants-crops of the group denote origin.
The Pegasus myth & Serpent Sea Monsters myth is told by primitive Greek tribes in Pelopponesus, specifically the Ionian Sea region.
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I dropped the coastlines in the Ionian Sea map to minus -60 meters to show what was mainland and what was coastline when the Serpent Boat groups began colonizing the coast of the region. The coast might even be at minus -70 meters when Serpent boat groups were colonizing the coast, but for the sake of the myths being born I'll put the coastlines at -60 meters instead. Note that during the birth of the myths, when cavemen in Pelopponesus were still living in caves at the same time as the Serpent Boat groups were colonizing the coast that there's only 3 islands in the Ionian Sea: Paxoi, Kefalonia and Zakinthos.
At the time of the origin of the Serpent Sea Monsters-Pegasus myth Leukas is still connected to the mainland and Korfu is still connected to the mainland. This is important because the island of Korfu boasts and claims to be the "Home of Medusa". Which cannot be the case because Korfu doesn't become an island until about -40 meters (c. 3250 B.C.E.). Human Medusa is far older than that and Pegasus-Sea Monster myth is thousands of years older than Korfu becoming an island. It may be that a Serpent Boat group colonized the former coast of Korfu before it became an island and the inhabitants created a later-cult to Medusa mistaking the serpent goddess for Medusa. But in all myths of Human Medusa, she comes from an island near the Underworld, near Hesperides, near Erytheia. So Korfu cannot be the island as Korfu doesn't fit the location nor was it an island at the time of the birth of the myth-legend.
Cavemen cease to live in caves altogether by c. 5000 B.C.E. in Greece at which point the coastal groups had taught the inland cavemen agriculture. And some of the boat groups of different origins would kidnap the cavemen tribes and take them to other regions as slaves.
The Pegasus legend & sea monster legends name places in the middle Mediterranean, whether coastal Africa, Sicily or Tyrrhenian.
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Serpent Boat Groups from different islands colonized Sicily...and Sicily's coastline when they colonized was very different. Despite 2000 years of attempts of the Roman Catholic Church trying to erase the history of the peoples of Sicily, the descendants of the Sicani & Siculi still maintain that they originate from a boat group--that they arrived to Sicily by boat thousands of years ago. The Roman Catholic Church lies and claims that they were still cavemen when the Romans arrived. The Romans didn't exist until c. 400 B.C.E. and clearly the boat groups colonizing Sicily brought plants endemic to other islands when they colonized Sicily c. 6000 B.C.E. (or before- give or take 500 years) So the descendants of the Sicani & Siculi were telling the truth about their origins and the Romans and the Catholic church are lying about them.
Pertaining to Pegasus myth, Medusa myth, Gorgones myth & Serpent Sea Monsters myth-- Most of the regions described as the origin of the animals-monsters come from the region of the Mediterranean around Sicily, Tunisia & Libya.
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Human Queen Medusa's island is said to be close to the Underworld, near Erytheia. Early Greek writers associated Erytheia with Sicily and King Eryx of West Sicily. Later Greek writers tried to label Erytheia in Spain. We'll ignore the later Greek writers (trying to rewrite the legend with Zeus & changing the locations) and stick with the early Greek writers.
Thrinakia & Erytheia are the same island-- the place where the red cattle of Geryon are herded. And Thrinakia is the island of Sicily, mainly the western region, but most likely the region that sunk.
In the Odyssey, Helios' cattle are herded on the island of Thrinakia, not Erytheia.
Erytheia
Both Ekhidna & Typhon, serpent boats with 100 people on them come from the island of Sicily. So without a doubt-- Sicily has all sorts of serpent boat groups who colonized it. The Kraken-- a triereme war ship comes from the Underworld, near Libya. So that would be from the former coast of Tunisia-Libya and the peoples who lived there.
So its a war. Definitely those of the Underworld or the group living there sent a warship to Argos in Pelopponesus demanding the Princess. And Perseus, the hero, goes to Libya and islands trying to get another ship...a ship capable of combating the Kraken warship. The only group with the technology to combat a Kraken warship would be the Serpent Boat groups of Sicily and the islands to the south.
So a group of people living off the former coast of Libya-Tunisia declared war on Greece and its coastal cities sending their Kraken triereme warship.
The Gorgones & Human Queen Medusa were said to be on a small island nearby-- an island that was claimed by Poseidon the sea. So it has to be an island which had a coastline that sunk by 2500 B.C.E. And an island close to the Underworld that was conquered by them even though originally being colonized by the same Serpent groups that colonized Sicily. So that gives the choices of Malta, Lampedusa, Linosa or Lampione. Pantelleria island is disqualified because the sea (Poseidon) never claimed it--Pantelleria didn't really sink.
Pegasus (the sailboat), Medusa's serpent ship strong enough to do battle with a Kraken triereme has to come from one of the 4 islands. Wish I knew which one. I'm thinking Malta which has underwater caves similar to what is described in mythology as Medusa's lair-- even an underwater cave that stretches for 35 meters long down to a depth of 50 meters below sea level. But as yet, most of the divers on Malta are only diving to a depth above 40 meters which isn't deep enough for the legend. There's a possible Roman-era temple underwater at -8 meters that might have been another deity's temple before Romanized. But as of yet, no divers going deep enough to account for a Human Queen Medusa coastline which I would range between -40 meters to -60 meters...if indeed Malta is the Medusa island at all. But that's my best educated guess after I've mapped hundreds of underwater cities, islands and coastlines.
Just in case anyone gets lost by the 3rd map...
I put the Underworld as the former Libyan-Tunisia coast because that's where it is according to Perseus & Pegasus legend. Remember, everything with Zeus, Poseidon, & Haides are rewrites of older legends. Since the Perseus, Pegasus & Gorgones legend originate with the sea god Phorkys and sea goddess Keto-- then the legend originates between the timeframe of 8500 B.C.E. to 1450 B.C.E. before Zeus, Poseidon & Haides worship. The legend was later rewritten omitting the names of Phorkys and Keto (sea god and goddess) between 1450 B.C.E. and Classical Greece times and after omitting Phorkys and Keto-- Poseidon was added.
Phorkys: the sea god
Keto: the sea goddess
I have no idea what deity would have been worshipped on the former sunken coast of Libya-Tunisia and there isn't much archeology there in the present to figure it out. Clearly the land would have had some ruler-- just no idea who.
So since the original Perseus-Pegasus-Gorgones legend have Phorkys & Keto in it-- I cannot contend that Hades was even in the original legend. I definitely know that neither Poseidon, nor Zeus was in the original legend. And Perseus by legend went to Libya, to the west of Libya and islands nearby in the legend pertaining to Pegasus.
Hope that helps if anyone got lost.
I put the Underworld as the former Libyan-Tunisia coast because that's where it is according to Perseus & Pegasus legend. Remember, everything with Zeus, Poseidon, & Haides are rewrites of older legends. Since the Perseus, Pegasus & Gorgones legend originate with the sea god Phorkys and sea goddess Keto-- then the legend originates between the timeframe of 8500 B.C.E. to 1450 B.C.E. before Zeus, Poseidon & Haides worship. The legend was later rewritten omitting the names of Phorkys and Keto (sea god and goddess) between 1450 B.C.E. and Classical Greece times and after omitting Phorkys and Keto-- Poseidon was added.
Phorkys: the sea god
Keto: the sea goddess
I have no idea what deity would have been worshipped on the former sunken coast of Libya-Tunisia and there isn't much archeology there in the present to figure it out. Clearly the land would have had some ruler-- just no idea who.
So since the original Perseus-Pegasus-Gorgones legend have Phorkys & Keto in it-- I cannot contend that Hades was even in the original legend. I definitely know that neither Poseidon, nor Zeus was in the original legend. And Perseus by legend went to Libya, to the west of Libya and islands nearby in the legend pertaining to Pegasus.
Hope that helps if anyone got lost.
edit on 21-7-2011 by MapMistress because: spelling typo; added links
Star and Flag.
I’m enjoying the read very much and agree with the logic. Thank you for the sheer amount of effort and research you put into this.
Even though it is well put together, I am tired and have to re-read the thread a few times to retain all the info. I do have to questions though.
1. What were the south American’s doing around this time? I ask because they speak of a bearded god, they also have the deity Quetzalcoatl, a plumed serpent. And, as every has seen the Mayan calendar, the face sticks out it’s tongue. I’ve read that images of the Gorgon’s or Medusa in particular always had a face with a tongue sticking out in the same manner.
2. Did the ice age actually end around this period (roughly 2500bc), erasing most evidence of these serpent boat people? As the waters rose 3 feet a year over a 100 year period?
Oh, and I'll never be able to watch Clash of the Titans the same way again.
I’m enjoying the read very much and agree with the logic. Thank you for the sheer amount of effort and research you put into this.
Even though it is well put together, I am tired and have to re-read the thread a few times to retain all the info. I do have to questions though.
1. What were the south American’s doing around this time? I ask because they speak of a bearded god, they also have the deity Quetzalcoatl, a plumed serpent. And, as every has seen the Mayan calendar, the face sticks out it’s tongue. I’ve read that images of the Gorgon’s or Medusa in particular always had a face with a tongue sticking out in the same manner.
2. Did the ice age actually end around this period (roughly 2500bc), erasing most evidence of these serpent boat people? As the waters rose 3 feet a year over a 100 year period?
Oh, and I'll never be able to watch Clash of the Titans the same way again.
edit on 21-7-2011 by PontiacWarrior because: (no reason given)
Very intriguing post raises a good point maybe were still yet to see our 'Iron horse' a form of technology greater than our own but yet so eluding.
reply to post by MapMistress
If remember correctly the old Scottish name for " The Loch Ness Monster" is the Kelpie/Kelpy, which was thought to be a terrifieing water horse?
If remember correctly the old Scottish name for " The Loch Ness Monster" is the Kelpie/Kelpy, which was thought to be a terrifieing water horse?
For example, when Europeans came to America and invented the train-- more primitive Native Americans called the train "The Iron Horse."
The train was invented in the United Kingdom.
I've pondered this before, looking at military jets leaving my local base, and imagine what it'd be like if you'd never seen such a machine before, or any flying machine for that matter, such as a human from the Dark Ages. No doubt you'd think of it as some kind of 'bird', relating to what you know. Same with horses, light boats, chariots etc.
Originally posted by PontiacWarrior
1. What were the south American’s doing around this time? I ask because they speak of a bearded god, they also have the deity Quetzalcoatl, a plumed serpent. And, as every has seen the Mayan calendar, the face sticks out it’s tongue. I’ve read that images of the Gorgon’s or Medusa in particular always had a face with a tongue sticking out in the same manner.
I'm not really sure what the Mayans were doing at the time. But I figure the Medusa or serpent emblems on the ships were similar to people putting Siren emblems on the front of ships.
2. Did the ice age actually end around this period (roughly 2500bc), erasing most evidence of these serpent boat people? As the waters rose 3 feet a year over a 100 year period?
Different people have different estimates of sea levels during the Last Glacial, the Younger Dryas to present. I know some of the people who post on ATS put them as deep as 130 meters at the LGM which I think is too deep. But as a general rule...most range the LGM coastline between 100-125 meters below present. The Younger Dryas would be 75-85 meters below present sea level. Then the Roman Empire coastline was -12 meters below present (google: Alexandria Roman Empire 12 meters).
There was one guy who seemed to make some estimate who thought that sea levels were -10 meters 6000 years ago-- which would be incorrect based off Roman Empire finds underwater and Ancient Greece cities found underwater. And there was supposed to be some sort of study done, some kind of underwater dating method which turned out to be incorrect too. Because according to them it was -10 meters 4000-6000 years ago, which is impossible because of Alexandria's underwater coastlines. Not certain of the dating method used but if they were right-- then the Romans would have built Alexandria underwater. So go figure on that one.
My estimates are a little different than others.
LGM (22,000-12,000 BCE): -112 meters below present
Younger Dryas (8800-8000 BCE): -80 meters below present
2250 BCE: estimate c. -30 meters below present
shortly before Ancient Greece (c. 850 BCE): -20 meters below present
Roman Empire: -12 meters below present
... and so forth.
Oh, and I'll never be able to watch Clash of the Titans the same way again.
Me neither after I did the research. Although the Pegasus in the movie sure is pretty. Maybe one of these days someone will make a movie of it in historical context. And make a pretty ship with pretty serpent emblems on it and a big war between Greece and the other country with the trireme row boat ship (Kraken).
You cover a lot here, so I'm going to try to trim it down.
The huge difference is that when the native Americans first encountered the horse, it was solely a means of transport. In fact they originally figured horses for dogs, because the Indians used dogs as beasts of burden. So thus when a new, iron beast of burden came around - the train - it became the "iron horse" just as the horse was "big dog"
The peoples of ice-age Europe had a very different relationship with hte horses in their territory. Their interest was culinary. See, despite the general European taboo against eating horse... it's actually quite tasty. And when you're talking about these ultra-lean, grass-bed wild horses and asses of prehistoric Europe... well... Transport isn't going to be your first thought. Know what I mean?
In fact, the horse was probably domesticated for the same reasons as cows and goats - a source of meat and milk. It's just that someone out on the plains managed to figure out that climbing on a horse's back has benefits.
Poseidon is the father of Pegasus because Poseidon invented horses. At least, according to mythology. Horses were spawned from waves. So if you have this semi-deific horse, and such a creature can only be spawned by a god, then naturally it should be the god that made horses in the first place.
Actually, historical accounts of people encountering sails for the first time almost always have them described as clouds, if not describing them plainly as "cloth"; sails don't look a thing like wings. And again we assume that cave people would associate horses with transportation (boats don't look like horses any more than sails look like wings)
Building assumptions on top of earlier assumptions doesn't really get you anywhere.
Well, problem is.. .the Greeks didn't consider south to be "down" since they lacked absolute navigation. Much like the Chinese, they considered their territory to be the center of a world disk, and any other direction was simply "somewhere else."
And Carthage a) didn't sink and B) was after the classical Greek period.
Again, you're stacking assumptions.
Winged horses aren't exclusive to Greece, however. I'll touch on this in a bit.
Now that (about the triremes) is actually an interesting hypothesis, and far more likely than the ones you've been making so far.
You may want to note, though, that Perseus did not "capture" Pegasus. Pegasus was given to him by Athena, in his quest to rescue Andromeda. The trouble is... Pegasus is a recent addition to the story of Perseus (Renaissance era, in fact); he originally flew to Etheopia with Hermes' winged sandals. It's sort of like how the story of Jason and the Argonauts kind of turned into a Greek version of fan-fiction as the years wore on. It was Bellepheron who captured Pegasus
Perseus used the head of Medusa to kill Polydectes; a man who was pursuing Perseus' mother with ill intent. The head was then given to Athena, who transformed it into Zeus' Aegis.Perhaps you're thinking of how Bellepheron, mounted on Pegasus, suffocated the chimera with a block of lead?
Now, as I noted, the notion of winged horses isn't exclusive to Greece - in fact the notion of such a thing probably arrived in Greece along with horses themselves; from the steppes peoples to the north. They did see the horse as a source of transportation... and if they were anything like steppes peoples of later ages, they revered the Infinite Blue Sky as their father. A horse with wings was a way for the worshiper to ascend to the realm of god. Now, here's an interesting association; a shaman's drum is known as his "horse" all through central Asia and Siberia. he mounts his "horse" and flies it into the spirit world. Now. What does a drum sound like? Hoofbeats, perhaps?
Originally posted by MapMistress
I've often wondered if Pegasus wasn't really a horse at all, but about more primitive peoples using animal terms to describe a more advanced civilization.
For example, when Europeans came to America and invented the train-- more primitive Native Americans called the train "The Iron Horse." Could the same also be true with Pegasus? Could Pegasus represent some form of an invention of a more advanced society described in terms of primitive peoples?
(...)
And since that's true...then if such primitive cavepeoples saw technological inventions of more advanced groups LIKE A SHIP...then they would describe the ship in terms of HORSES, just as Native Americans described trains in terms of horses--"The Iron Horse."
The huge difference is that when the native Americans first encountered the horse, it was solely a means of transport. In fact they originally figured horses for dogs, because the Indians used dogs as beasts of burden. So thus when a new, iron beast of burden came around - the train - it became the "iron horse" just as the horse was "big dog"
The peoples of ice-age Europe had a very different relationship with hte horses in their territory. Their interest was culinary. See, despite the general European taboo against eating horse... it's actually quite tasty. And when you're talking about these ultra-lean, grass-bed wild horses and asses of prehistoric Europe... well... Transport isn't going to be your first thought. Know what I mean?
In fact, the horse was probably domesticated for the same reasons as cows and goats - a source of meat and milk. It's just that someone out on the plains managed to figure out that climbing on a horse's back has benefits.
DOES PEGASUS HAVE THE CHARACTERISTICS OF A SHIP?
In all mythology of Pegasus, Pegasus is the offspring of Poseidon. Which is interesting that the God of the Sea gave birth to this type of horse. If it were truly meant to be a land animal--a real horse-- then it should be some land-ruling deity that gave birth to the animal.
Poseidon is the father of Pegasus because Poseidon invented horses. At least, according to mythology. Horses were spawned from waves. So if you have this semi-deific horse, and such a creature can only be spawned by a god, then naturally it should be the god that made horses in the first place.
AND THE WINGS...WHAT ARE THE WINGS?
Whether Hesiod considered Pegasus as a winged horse, cannot be inferred with certainty from the word apoptamenose; but Pindar, Euripides, and the other later writers, expressly mention his wings.
from Theoi.com
What are the wings on this horse that springs out of the foam of Poseidon--the sea? SAILS! If you are a primitive caveman and you live in a cave, paint horses in caves and you see a sailboat....then you too would claim it to be "a horse from Poseidon, the sea, with wings".
Actually, historical accounts of people encountering sails for the first time almost always have them described as clouds, if not describing them plainly as "cloth"; sails don't look a thing like wings. And again we assume that cave people would associate horses with transportation (boats don't look like horses any more than sails look like wings)
WHO INVENTED THE SAILBOAT PEGASUS? WHO IS THE PRIMITIVE GROUP DESCRIBING IT IN TERMS OF HORSES? AND WHERE ARE THEY BOTH FROM?
Building assumptions on top of earlier assumptions doesn't really get you anywhere.
Where are the Gorgones from? And I've tried to figure this out for awhile and I've got several theories. The Gorgones are said to be near the region of Hades (the "underworld") and near the land of the golden apples (aka. pears). Hades region of rule might have been in north Africa, the "underworld" from the perspective of Europe...like perhaps the former city along the coast of Carthage before it sunk.
Well, problem is.. .the Greeks didn't consider south to be "down" since they lacked absolute navigation. Much like the Chinese, they considered their territory to be the center of a world disk, and any other direction was simply "somewhere else."
And Carthage a) didn't sink and B) was after the classical Greek period.
Who are the primitive cavepeoples describing sailboats in terms of winged horses from Poseidon the sea and where are they from?
Again, you're stacking assumptions.
The Equuis (horse) cavepeoples describing these sailboats seem to all originate in Pelopponesus, through Corinth and Boetia. It may very well be different groups who had similar stories that all got combined into one.
Winged horses aren't exclusive to Greece, however. I'll touch on this in a bit.
REWRITING THE MYTH OF PERSEUS IN TERMS OF LITERALISM
So if Perseus captured a Pegasus, then Perseus captured a Gorgone Sailboat. What was the "Kracken"? The Kracken is a sea monster with many arms that rises out of the sea to kidnap people. ANOTHER BOAT! Only the group of people who have that boat are slave traders that "swallow up" people and livestock. The Kracken is a rowboat since it has many arms. In Greek mythology there's even stories about sea monsters with "200 arms" and "100 heads" which would be like a trireme boat. They have slaves below that row the boat.
Trireme War Ships
Trireme Ships: Wikipedia
Now that (about the triremes) is actually an interesting hypothesis, and far more likely than the ones you've been making so far.
You may want to note, though, that Perseus did not "capture" Pegasus. Pegasus was given to him by Athena, in his quest to rescue Andromeda. The trouble is... Pegasus is a recent addition to the story of Perseus (Renaissance era, in fact); he originally flew to Etheopia with Hermes' winged sandals. It's sort of like how the story of Jason and the Argonauts kind of turned into a Greek version of fan-fiction as the years wore on. It was Bellepheron who captured Pegasus
If Perseus used the sailboat Pegasus with the "head of Medusa" to destroy the Kracken--a trireme row boat, then he rammed the boat. The head of Medusa, or the serpent goddess emblem would be at the front of the boat as a protectorate. An emblem of a head of snakes at the front of the boat to protect the boat and scare away others.
Perseus rammed the Kracken-trireme boat with a stolen Gorgon sailboat with the head of Medusa as an emblem at the front of the boat. And the Kracken-trireme boat crumbled and fell to pieces at the bottom of the sea.
Perseus used the head of Medusa to kill Polydectes; a man who was pursuing Perseus' mother with ill intent. The head was then given to Athena, who transformed it into Zeus' Aegis.Perhaps you're thinking of how Bellepheron, mounted on Pegasus, suffocated the chimera with a block of lead?
Now, as I noted, the notion of winged horses isn't exclusive to Greece - in fact the notion of such a thing probably arrived in Greece along with horses themselves; from the steppes peoples to the north. They did see the horse as a source of transportation... and if they were anything like steppes peoples of later ages, they revered the Infinite Blue Sky as their father. A horse with wings was a way for the worshiper to ascend to the realm of god. Now, here's an interesting association; a shaman's drum is known as his "horse" all through central Asia and Siberia. he mounts his "horse" and flies it into the spirit world. Now. What does a drum sound like? Hoofbeats, perhaps?
edit on 28/7/2011 by TheWalkingFox because:
(no reason given)
edit on 28/7/2011 by TheWalkingFox because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by PontiacWarrior
1. What were the south American’s doing around this time? I ask because they speak of a bearded god, they also have the deity Quetzalcoatl, a plumed serpent. And, as every has seen the Mayan calendar, the face sticks out it’s tongue. I’ve read that images of the Gorgon’s or Medusa in particular always had a face with a tongue sticking out in the same manner.
The whole thing about Quetzalcoatl being a bearded, white god? That's post-contact, when missionaries were converting the locals; just as African deities, the Iwa, became christian saints when Africans were taken to the Caribbean, so to did mesoamerican gods undergo a christian transformation; and Quetzalcoatl drew the long straw and became a stand-in for Jesus - you know, the bearded, white god. it was also a nice bit of propaganda from the Spanish point of view - the dominant god just happened to look like them, how very convenient.
Quetzoalcoatl was actually depicted as either a literal plumed surpent, or one of those Surrealist, dude-peyote-is-weird figures the mesoamericans were fond of.
Also, the tongue-out gesture has a pretty consistent meaning around the world. "I'm going to eat you." It's a threat, from the tribes of Polynesia, to the peoples of Africa and Mesoamerica - even most European cultures consider the gesture as being quite rude.
2. Did the ice age actually end around this period (roughly 2500bc), erasing most evidence of these serpent boat people? As the waters rose 3 feet a year over a 100 year period?
It ended quite a bit earlier than that.
Oh, and I'll never be able to watch Clash of the Titans the same way again.
edit on 21-7-2011 by PontiacWarrior because: (no reason given)
personally, once was enough for me. Ugh.
According to Paul Deveroux who wrote in his book "Earthmind" that people in europe didnt knew what a horse was. But In 4500 bc from today's south part
of russia came a tribe who ride on horses, uses metals for weapon and had male god. Untill then people in europe (Vinca culture) lived in peace with
nature and as one with the universe. The worshiped Gaia the female godess which represents the Earth and never fought. The just lived and enjoyed
life...Thats where we as human race should be heading, thats our natural path. If you are lazy to know more about Vinca fell free to ax me
Peace
p.s. and yes I would take your theory about Pegasus as relevant.
Peace
p.s. and yes I would take your theory about Pegasus as relevant.
edit on 28/7/11 by Metaphysic because: spelling
reply to post by Metaphysic
Sounds to me like typical tribal romanticism; "Once there were a people who lived in perfect harmony with everything and knew no strife of any sort, until (dun dun DUUUUUN!) outsiders arrived!"
It's a staple of western storytelling; the fall of Eden.
Sounds to me like typical tribal romanticism; "Once there were a people who lived in perfect harmony with everything and knew no strife of any sort, until (dun dun DUUUUUN!) outsiders arrived!"
It's a staple of western storytelling; the fall of Eden.
edit on 28/7/2011 by TheWalkingFox because: (no reason given)
All the stories are inspired by acctual events...believe in what ever you want and ill believe in my truth. Why sharing thoughts is becoming a
confession in front of the lynch mob??
I think we were an advanced civilization that went bad. There was a cataclysmic event that destroyed the world as we knew it. Primitives that came up
where left with some of the advanced peoples. The primitives didn’t understand. The advanced people that where left died of or where killed off.
It’s also possible that the UFO’s people are seeing now are people we, at one time, sent out to other planets before this cataclysm, and now they are coming back.
It’s also possible that the UFO’s people are seeing now are people we, at one time, sent out to other planets before this cataclysm, and now they are coming back.
reply to post by MapMistress
Try to patent/punlish your thoughts and/or look for physical evidence to coincide with your thoughts. Never know you might ne spot on and someone take credit for your work, and who wants that?
Try to patent/punlish your thoughts and/or look for physical evidence to coincide with your thoughts. Never know you might ne spot on and someone take credit for your work, and who wants that?
Originally posted by Metaphysic
According to Paul Deveroux who wrote in his book "Earthmind" that people in europe didnt knew what a horse was. But In 4500 bc from today's south part of russia came a tribe who ride on horses, uses metals for weapon and had male god.
Either Paul Deveroux is being misquoted here or if he's being quoted correctly then he is mistaken.
In Europe cave peoples have painted wild horses on cave walls all throughout the Last Glacial Maximum (20,000-12,000 B.C.E.) Different countries have different names for the group of cavemen, but I tend to collectively call them Equuis Cave Peoples.
Google images of Cave Peoples of the Ice Age painting wild horses on cave walls
You'll find wild horses painted in caves in France, various areas of England, caves of Scotland and even caves of Northern Ireland since France and England were connected by a landbridge at the LGM and North Ireland and Scotland were connected by a landbridge at the LGM.
Miniature animation of the British Isles and landbridges from the LGM to present: animated Gif
There are also wild horse Ice Age cave people paintings throughout Italy and east and west Sicily caves. Then wild horse paintings in caves in some areas of Greece.
The only thing about these Ice Age cave men is that they worshipped the wild horse. They did not try to tame, nor ride them and they definitely didn't try to use horses for work. There's a whole mythology about Cave Peoples WILD horse mythology that is still left over no matter how many groups with other differing pagan religions moved into the region. And they extend from the British Isles, France, Spain, Italy, Greece on over to the Bering Strait, sharing DNA with the Basques and the 1st and 2nd groups of Native Americans to cross Beringia. They are a much older human group.
edit on 25-9-2011 by MapMistress because: added a sentence
Originally posted by D1Useek
I think we were an advanced civilization that went bad. There was a cataclysmic event that destroyed the world as we knew it. Primitives that came up where left with some of the advanced peoples. The primitives didn’t understand. The advanced people that where left died of or where killed off.
Not necessarily. With regards to cataclysmic events it was probably no different in the past as it is now. Think of it like New Orleans-- a hurricane and a flood. Many New Orleans residents moved to other areas of the country, they moved to higher grounds-inland. Then all scores of people in the U.S. and other countries swooped in to rebuild making new alliances and new influences in the regions. For example, Mennonites (who don't use electricity) sent in a mission team to rebuild. And how many people from New Orleans interacting with the Mennonites converted or adopted a few of their beliefs that they liked? And if they liked some of the Mennonites then they trade technology for a more simple un-technological life.
Who says that those swooping in to help in a time of a disaster are "more advanced" than those to which the disaster strikes? Sometimes they are less advanced swooping in to help.
But more common is that conquering groups invading regions/islands would usually burn or bulldoze a more advanced civilization to the ground. Prime example would be the Romans destroying Ancient Egypt, burning libraries, salting crop fields, dumping oil in wells and rivers and levelling entire cities to the ground. Sometimes the most brutal and dumber groups win out-- the braun winning over the brains. Not for the best of humanity, but it happens. And it can set back human advances for thousands of years when it does happen.
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