To all Bush supporters

Originally posted by jmilici
Fighting never solved anything. Especially since no matter how big and bad someone is, there will always be someone bigger and badder.

Things fighting has solved.
The revolutionary war
WW1
WW2
The holocaust

I understand your position but I disagree wholeheartedly. The fact is that Isrea is our ally, they are surrounded by people whos fondest wish is the destruction of thier state, peoples, and religon, and who throughout the course of history have warred with each other at the drop of a hat. The Islamic fundamentalist don't hate us because of isreal they hate us because we are not islamic and don't live by ther barbaric sharia laws. The fact s that most muslims (I believe and fervently hope) are not represented by the extremists but also don't have any say n the countries they live in. The Iranian people have no say in what thier government does neither did the Afghanis or Iraqis. As long as there are despots ike those they will be able to foster hate by blamng the U.S. and Isreal for the problems the populace of those countries have. It is the Imams who preach that the U.S. is the great Satan while forcing women to live like slaves, and men to work like dogs that are responsible for terrorism. And when the people complain about thier conditions they balme it on Isreal and the U.S. Thats why the governments have to go.

Originally posted by jmilici

The terrorist training camps in Iraq have been destroyed.

I suppose flyersfan that you believe that there is a Saddam - Al Queda connection? Even though that has been proved to be false.

No. I don't know if there is one with Al Queda or not. However, there were terrorist training camps in Iraq. There was also a $$$ trail to Hamas and into Syria. Syria is a world exporter of terrorism. It's government sponsored terrorism around the world and against America.

I don't know if there was or was not Al Queda connections. But there
is more than just one terrorist outfit in that part of the world. Al Queda is just one of many murderous cults.

Originally posted by jmilici
Why do yhey hate us

Because their twisted religion says they have to hate us and they have to kill us. That's why. There is nothing else to say but that. It's the only reason. We give billions of $$$ in aid to that part of the world, but they still hate us because their religion says to. It's that simple.

Firs of all flyersfan, please stop putting words in my mouth. Second stop mis-quoting me. "Why do yhey hate us" was not a question. If you look at the post there is a period. Third, you should not put down another religion and say they are twisted. Truthfully all religion is twisted but I will not go around saying that. I am a jew, not practicing but that is my heritage. Cristianity & islam came from judeism(sp) so therefore judeism is also twisted.

Anyway, the bottom line is this world is no safer than it was before 9/11, with or with out war. There is more terror now than there was before. The electric is not on all the time in iraq, they are lucky to get 3 hr a day. You must watch a lot of tv. Everything you say sounds like it comes from the biased media. There is no way you can debate that american media is not biased. Start reading other countries news, not just ours. Look at friends and foes alike. You will have to read through a lot of B.S. but the rewards will be enlightening(sp). You will find that even our allies do not think of us as you think they do. You will also see that we are loosing a lot of allies as this war progresses.

The pipcture that has been painted in america is not reality. I was in Canada about 4 months ago and without initiating any political conversations I had about 5 people say something about what us americans are doing. They are our allies, they also hate us(do not take me wrong, I am not speaking for all canadians. But you will find that alot more people in any country feel this way than we are led to believe).

Originally posted by jmilici
Firs of all flyersfan, please stop putting words in my mouth. Second stop mis-quoting me. "Why do yhey hate us" was not a question. If you look at the post there is a period. Third, you should not put down another religion and say they are twisted

Anyway, the bottom line is this world is no safer than it was before 9/11, with or with out war. There is more terror now than there was before. The electric is not on all the time in iraq, they are lucky to get 3 hr a day. You must watch a lot of tv

I am not putting words in your mouth or misquoting you. I quoted them exactly as you said them - without editing on my part. You put a period after 'Why do yhey hate us'? Fine. When someone asks WHY, it is a question. Putting a period on the end doesn't change that. (people will just assume you were asking a question, you spelled words wrong so they will assume you used wrong punctuation too) Either way, I stated exactly why they hate us. It's their religion to do so. They are trained from birth to hate and kill anyone that isn't Wahabbi. (remember a thread about a month ago, the Wahabbi pre-schoolers were telling the interviewer that Jews were all apes and pigs and had to die??)

I most certainly WILL say that the Wahabbi Muslims have a twisted religion. Absolutely. ANY religion that says everyone else must convert or die is TWISTED. It is a threat to the lives of every person on the planet. That's twisted. Being politically correct and saying anything different is weak.

The world may or may not be safer now than 9/11. There isn't more terror now, we are just more aware of it. America was asleep before 9/11. We mostly didn't know and didn't care about terror. Now that it has hit home, we do, so we are more aware of it. The world WILL definately be safer when we are done with the war on terror. The terrorists will be dead. The world is not completely safe at the present time, but that is because we are only just starting the war on terror.

I tend to think the world IS safer. Now that the $$$ between Saddam and Hamas has been cut, there have been significantly less homicide bombings in Israel. We won't know for a long time the extent of how many terrorist attacks have been foiled due to the war. But what we DO know is that if we hadn't gone to war, there definately would have been more attacks. No question.

Electricity is on in Iraq. It is on all over Iraq instead of just in Bagdad. There are times it goes out due to anarchist attacks, but it is in more areas of Iraq than before the war. As time goes on, and Americans work to improve the old outdated electrical systems there, the lights will be on more and more. Better than the Iraqis had or would have had under Saddam. BTW - before the war the electricity wasn't stable either - except in Saddams palaces.


EDITED TO ADD - in the beginning of this thread you asked Bush supporters to answer your questions so you could know 'what the other sie' thinks and why. Well, I did. I answered. Sorry you don't like the answers 'from the other side'. But that's what they are.

[edit on 8/13/2004 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by mwm1331

The fact is that Isrea is our ally

That's a very interesting kind of ally. Alliance implies some kind of bilateral help. Israel is busy absorbing a huge amount of the US military aid. I don't see is as a contribution to America's security.

The Islamic fundamentalist don't hate us because of isreal they hate us because we are not islamic and don't live by ther barbaric sharia laws.

The fundamentalists do not represent the majority of the muslims. If you met these people in person and had an intelligent conversation with them, you'd be susprised at just how reasonable they are. I'm extremely far from islamic ideas, by the way. I'm just telling the facts.

The fact s that most muslims (I believe and fervently hope) are not represented by the extremists but also don't have any say n the countries they live in.

Egypt is not a country governed by religious fanatics, and neither is Jordan.
By the way Iraq was the only truly secular regime in the Middle East, but the US helped to change that.

As long as there are despots ike those they will be able to foster hate by blamng the U.S. and Isreal for the problems the populace of those countries have.

That's done all over the world by all kinds of regimes. Also note that Israel gets blame not for all sorts of problems, but rather for the very specific ones such territorial dispute in Palestine.

It is the Imams who preach that the U.S. is the great Satan while forcing women to live like slaves, and men to work like dogs

That's laughable. Imams don't force men work like dogs. I also know of some Christians who preach that Islam is the great Satan (General Boyko, of all people). I also know of white people who preach that anyone who is not white is Satan. Let me know if you are in favor of fixing the Arian Nation compund before going to Iran.

And when the people complain about thier conditions they balme it on Isreal and the U.S. Thats why the governments have to go.

There is not a grain of logic here. I never met a person in the Middle East outside of Palestine, who blamed the US on their living conditions. I think everybody's celebrating the fact that the US is so dependent on their oil, thank in part to the US oil companies. If the $100 B already sunk by Bush in the Iraq desert were invested in new energy sources, we'd be bying gasoline at 25 cents a gallon.



In your earlier post you painted an arch of democracy "based on the US constitution", not less, stretched from Afghanistan to Iran to Syria. Good luck, Mr. Gorsky. Despite what you are saying, Afghanistan is not better off under current conditions. Do you know at all, that most of the territory is controlled by War/Drug Lords? That the puppet govt there only has control over Kabul? That production of various drugs multiplied tenfold? (real number, by the way).

You live in such a super simplistic world, man. No wonder you are pro-Bush. He's on par with your level.

[edit on 13-8-2004 by Aelita]

I do stand corrected mwm1331, fighting sometimes does solve problems, as a last resort. But this war was not a last resort. It was pre-emptive. For the first time in history we attack a country unprovoked (technically, vietnam was unprovoked but I would rather not touch that subject).

Honestly what I blame on the us & isreal is, we give unwavering support for isreal, then turn around and slap the palestinians in the face by saying they are not doing enough for the peace process. But the Isreali's go in and start bombing/bulldozing homes, killing children indiscimanatly shooting people all to capture 1 or 2 bad guys. Each time they move into another section of gaza or wherever that is all they get one or two bad guys and 10 or 20 dead civillians. How about that apartheid wall isreal is building? It is things like that that breed hatred.

I am a very spiritual person, no I am not a pu$$y like most people feel spiritual people are. I shoot guns, I have faught, I curse, drink, fish but I believe in saving my soul. My soul will not let me support any of this killing. I want to be bigger than the terrorist, and governments supporting them. I want to show them that I can work to solve my problems without bombing or raiding even if that is what they do to me. Two wrongs do not make a right. An eye for an eye brings us back a few centuries, & I want to move forward.

Originally posted by jmilici
then turn around and slap the palestinians in the face by saying they are not doing enough for the peace process. But the Isreali's go in and start bombing/bulldozing homes, killing children indiscimanatly shooting people all to capture 1 or 2 bad guys

I want to be bigger than the terrorist, and governments supporting them. I want to show them that I can work to solve my problems without bombing or raiding even if that is what they do to me. Two wrongs do not make a right. An eye for an eye brings us back a few centuries, & I want to move forward.

This wasn't addressed to me, but I thought I'd comment. Hope that's okay.

What you want is very honorable and admirable. That's great. I'd love it if we could talk out the problems. That is what we all want. No one WANTS war, at least no one here does. However, the terrorists DO want war. It's what they live for. It's what they are taught from birth. They are brainwashed by the Wahabbis. It's sad, but it's true. It would be great if we could move ahead, but the Wahabbis keep pulling us back. They want to turn the clock back 800 years. That's just them. No amount of talking will do it. They use peace as a war tool, rather than an aim on how to live life. Become like us or die. That's all they know. There is no changing that.

It's been tried. Bill Clinton came sooooooooooo very close. He had Arafat at Camp David. The Jews were willing to give the Palestinians 95% of what they wanted. Arafat refused to sign. He said Jerusalem MUST be Palestinian, then a few days later he said that all Jews had to leave Israel or be killed. He wasn't interested in peace. He just used peace as a war tool and not as an aim for life.

Um ... I have not seen where Israel indiscrimanently shoots children and people. I have seen the Palestinian terrorists murder a pregnant woman and her four daughters (all under age 12) recently, and then they danced for joy in the streets at the heroic murderers killing the evil Jews.

But back to your post. You have a good heart. You have admirable wishes. I'm sure you pray for an end to all this as we do here in our home. BUT ... sometimes war is necessary and I think this is one of those times.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

No one WANTS war, at least no one here does. However, the terrorists DO want war. It's what they live for.

Well, that's a truism. Of course they do. And that's not debated by enyone here. Pro-Bush people feel that he's doing a good job in combatting the terror, and the Bush opponents think that he's doing a terrible job. That's the issue.

Bush's obsession with Iraq is documented. Right after 911 he asked Franks (if I remember correctly) if Iraq had anything to do with it (to the surprise of many). When the link didn't materialize, it didn't stop Bush from pursuing the invasion anyway. He has a one-track mind. Winning a war against a nation-state is a demonstrable success and is good for reelection.

Building up the intelligence network and working out political deals in the Middle East is, on the other hand, not always tangible, and quite painstaking. It could, however, cost less than the invasion and I don't have any doubt that it would contribute more the to US security. The Iraq bill for one year was what, $86 billion and counting? Can you imagine what this money can do in intelligence expenses and bribes?

That's why I think he's done a dismal job. Peace.

Ok flyersfan, the "why do they hate us" was a rhetorical question. If you understood grammer the way you say you do you would of say my answer to that "question". I never said anything about the 20,000 new terrorist being iranian. They are the muslim people & extremist in other countries who are appaled at what we are doing in iraq. It is not thier religion that makes them hate us. Religion does not hate, people hate for most religions are created by people. The sooner you see that the sooner you will learn how this world really works.

The world may or may not be safer now than 9/11. There isn't more terror now, we are just more aware of it. America was asleep before 9/11. We mostly didn't know and didn't care about terror.

Actually I was just as aware of terrorism before 9/11 than I am now, and there is more terrorism. By the way this isn't the first time terrorism hit home. Remember wtc1, or twa flight 800? How about Oklahoma.

I tend to think the world IS safer.

I am glad you feel that way. The truth is it's not. Look at spain. If the world is safer, why is it the trend for americans when traveling abroad hiding the fact they are americans. They are putting canadian patches on backpacks and such. I actually have a question for you, would you give up your freedom for security? Just so you know where I stand, I would not. Here is a quote from Thomas Jefferson, "A society that will trade a little order for a little freedom will lose both, and deserve neither." I might just add that to my signature actually.

Once again with your electricity statement you sound like Fox news or cnn. I am telling you, you are not getting the entire picture by only relying on the us/isreal media outlet. They are/will brainwashing you.

EDITED TO ADD - in the beginning of this thread you asked Bush supporters to answer your questions so you could know 'what the other sie' thinks and why. Well, I did. I answered. Sorry you don't like the answers 'from the other side'. But that's what they are.

That's fine, I have no problem with you telling me your opinion. We are in a debate. My tone is that of a debate. You seem since you added this edit to be getting a little razed, well don't debate then. That's cool you feel the way you do this is america we can have seperate opinions. That is why I love my country and will die to protect it. But I am not just trying to find out what the other side thinks, I am trying to understand why the other side thinks this way. I feel it could help me become a more knowlegable person in the end.

flyersfan I am not just saying talking is going to solve everything. We need to lead by example. Our actions is what counts. Remember actions speak louder than words. If you want to read more on the isreal situation go to www.rense.com. If any one else has another good site to go to please post the link. If I get time today or this weekend I will put together links for you about that conflict. I am telling you you will be suprised. And another thing, I am just as appaled a things the palestinians do to the isreali's Life is valuable no matter who it is.


Adding on edit: Thanks Aelita. You actually said things I forgot to mention or just didn't think of.

[edit on 13-8-2004 by jmilici]