Heavy handed uk police and NHS cockup

Its not only in the US that police behave in a totally disproportinate way check out this article in the daily mail-tagged a murderer-the whole world has gone bad and it sickens me that we live in a society where this can happen, what have we become?

Originally posted by Swanseadog
Its not only in the US that police behave in a totally disproportinate way check out this article in the daily mail-tagged a murderer-the whole world has gone bad and it sickens me that we live in a society where this can happen, what have we become?

Seems people whithout lots of money or insurence get second rate care.Its almoust like going to the Emergency room and having to turn out your pants pockets..You will be treated last and least.

A YOUNG mother whose son had been sent home from hospital despite being desperately ill with pneumonia was devastated to find him dead in his bed.

The NHS prove themselves to be incompetent over and over again.. and now a baby dies and a young mothers life is ruined because of it?

Within an hour she was arrested on suspicion of murdering Alfie, three. She said ‘heavy-handed’ police sent two riot vans and 17 officers to arrest her and she was held for questioning overnight. Miss Podmore was released the following day after post mortem examination results revealed the child had died of natural causes.

More proof of how archaic, brutal and idiotic our police force really is.

What a sad, sad story.

reply to post by TechUnique


It feels like we have slipped back to the dark ages when things like this happen, heres another link with more incompetence and this leading to a man with learning difficulties being murdered-Kept as a slave, sexually abused and finally beheaded

reply to post by Swanseadog

Stories like the one in OP remind me of the god damn witch trials.

this justs bloody disgusts me
ive had enough of this pc country
where else to go?
bloody nowhere
the whole planet has gone down the toilet

A deplorable act that makes me ashamed to be a Brit, but this is quite a common case over here. I feel I must point out, however, that the Daily Mail has a reputation for being a scare-tactic paper with some quite radical views at times.

Whilst my thoughts and prayers go out to the lady, cases like these are always referred and assessed for possible child neglect which, personally, I am glad the authorities actually make a priority. That said, this was a gross mishandling of a grieving mother and I hope lessons were learnt from this terrible mistake.

reply to post by Swanseadog


Horrific story. Can you imagine finding a child dead and not being allowed to hold him or to grieve. Instead all thoughts thrown into defending yourself from a police interrogation, pointed fingers, etc. I hope she sues and wins. Not that that would take the memories away. That poor woman will be traumatised for life.

First of all, you can't be too sure about the honesty and accuracies in the contents of a report which emanates from the Daily Fail. They are an agenda-driven newspaper which twists and butchers facts to create drama and ''stories'' that will appeal to their reader-base.

I'm certainly not dismissing the story because of its source; I'm just pointing out that it's best to put your sceptical hat on when analysing the ''facts'' of an event that are reported in this publication.

Having said all that, if the facts of this story are largely correct, then I find it disgusting and outrageous that the police would behave in this manner.

In the report, it says that the results of the post-mortem on the child were revealed a day after the mother was arrested. If there was no indication of foul play, then why the blazes did they arrest her before the cause of death had been ascertained ?

It's unimaginable how this poor woman must feel; as if losing her son wasn't bad enough, she additionally has to suffer the false accusations and the resultant stigmatisation from some of the knuckle-draggers in her local community.

While the police and the NHS certainly shouldn't be without criticism in this case, the fact of the matter is that the majority of people are - if you'll forgive my French - twats.

I'm referring to the modern day equivalent of pitchfork wielding savages who think that ''there's no smoke without fire'', and who have made this woman's life more of a nightmare than it already was.

This is why I'm grateful that I live in a country with a rule of law which protects everyone equally, and not in some anarchic society where mob mentality flourishes.

The veneer of civilisation barely hides the fact that most people are little more than barbaric animals. Rest assured, if this sequence of events had occurred a few hundred years ago, or in a lawless society, then the ''community'' would be furiously erecting a scaffold to facilitate the hanging of this woman for her ''crime'.

Oh please, spare the sanctimonous bull-crap.

First off, this is the Mail so, as is standard for them, the story is likely to be overblown.

Lets look at the facts, shall we?

First of all, the Kid was sent home from hospital having been misdiagnosed. Not the first time, won't be the last and is not limited to the NHS. Doctors are human and medicine is hardly an exact science. This is a personal tragedy, yes, but hardly systematic of the NHS.

Second of all, the Police were called to the unexplained death of a young child. Only the mother was present in the house at time of death and, in order to preserve the scene of a potential crime and find out the facts, mother is taken from the house, the building is sealed and examined, then the body is taken for examination.

Had the Police not done this and said "Oh well, we'll just believe you when you say he was ill" then left the mother alone, but it turned out to have been a child killing and vital evidence was lost, destroyed or not even found, then you all would be over the arses for dropping the ball.

Bottom line is, the mother should have gone back to hospital or her GP when the poor sod was up all night before he died, if not before. I wouldn;t have let any of my 3 kids get to that state and not seek medical attention.

The Police were only doing their jobs and this is standard practice for any sudden, unexplained death. Arrest any potential suspects, secure the potential crime scene and establish the facts. They did this and released her. She is belating about not being able to "grieve" due to being arrested, but I doubt that excuse would wash if the Police didn't arrest someone who did kill a kid because they wanted "to grieve"....

Originally posted by Sherlock Holmes
In the report, it says that the results of the post-mortem on the child were revealed a day after the mother was arrested. If there was no indication of foul play, then why the blazes did they arrest her before the cause of death had been ascertained ?

They found a dead child, blood coming his nose in his bed. Unexplained cause of death to a child of previous good health. Until cause of death can be established, the Police must operate under the assumption that something bad could have happened and preserve the scene and any evidence therein.

Had they not done that, waitined for the autopsy to come back and found he had died of "suspicious" reasons, but went back to the house to find it cleaned of any evidence and the suspect having eloped to Brazil, what would you say then?

I agree it isn't savoury, but I think the Police did the right thing. You would expect nothing less. The only reason people are up in arms is the Young mother bleating and the poor young sod that died. If this was a 45 year old man arrested the later released because his 85 year old mother was found dead in bed with blood pouring from her nose, it wouldn't even make the papers...

I agree with Stu Mason to a certain extent, but do the police behave this way in every unexplained child death i dont think so. They were heavy handed and over the top, unless their were signs of child neglect or they were known to social services it should have been handled in a totally different way IE no arrest untill proven undeniably that the baby was murdered, yes she should have gone back to hospital but thats not a crime. If a hospital in this day and age can not tell the difference between a tummy upset and pneumonia then there is something greatly wrong with the NHS.

reply to post by Swanseadog


Ok, but what would you have the Police do with the scene and the "suspect" until the cause of death is established? In the intervening time, she could run or destroy any evidence. It seems heavy handed, but I think that is because it tugs the heart, Like I said, had it been a 45 year old man and his ancient mother, would you care as much?

This way round, she was held for less than 24hrs, autopsy was done and the Police had done their job.

The one time they don't though and everyone is over their arse for that too.

What a depressing story, wish I hadn't followed the link.

I don't think the police are the biggest wrong here at all, it's the community on the whole. You see it here on ATS too, despite this forum supposedly appealing to the non-ignorant. Mob mentality and vigilantes who know better than anyone else yet got their information via chinese whispers or a sensationalist media piece.

Reminds me of the pediatrician who had her house vandalised because some numpties believed her to be a child molester.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

reply to post by stumason


As I said do you see this in other child death situations, no you don't, and yes it does tug at the heartstrings. Any detective worth his salt should have been able to distinguish through questioning in the first instance whether it warranted further investigation, yes the scene has to be preserved and yes the suspect held but imo this was an over the top reaction and to me it seems like the police involved were not very experienced in dealing with such a situation, there maybe circumstances we are unaware of but going on the facts stated and not just in the daily fail, the reaction was over the top.

Originally posted by Swanseadog
As I said do you see this in other child death situations, no you don't, and yes it does tug at the heartstrings.

Actually, looking through the (sadly many) "child death" stories on the BBC since just the beggining of the year, in almost every single case the parents/adults present were arrested and before the results of a post mortem were known. As I said, it appears to be standard procedure in cases of a sudden, unexplained death where the only witnesses are also viable suspects.

People misunderstand arrest and think it is the Police attempting to pin a case on someone, when it is just a process used to establish the facts, placing suspects under caution and granting Police the powers to properly investigate a matter.

Originally posted by Swanseadog
Any detective worth his salt should have been able to distinguish through questioning in the first instance whether it warranted further investigation, yes the scene has to be preserved and yes the suspect held but imo this was an over the top reaction and to me it seems like the police involved were not very experienced in dealing with such a situation, there maybe circumstances we are unaware of but going on the facts stated and not just in the daily fail, the reaction was over the top.

Any Detective worth his salt is not going to trust a woman he has never met when she says "He was poorly and just died". He or She is going to want to know the facts and do his/her job properly.

No Detective worth their salt is going to believe the word of the only living person in a house when someone else has died until the facts are known and the cause of death understood.

You agree that the scene has to be preserved and the "suspect" held, but then say it is over the top. How woulod you suggest situations like this are handled without jeopardising any evidence?

EDIT: Just remember Baby P. People trusted his mother and partner when they claimed his injuries where not of their doing..

Look how that turned out.

reply to post by stumason


I totally agree with what you are saying, but I just think they showed no empathy towards the mother during and afterwards, 2 riot vans and 17 police officers is a bit over the top in my opinion and police have even admitted it should have been handled different and that correct protocols were not followed. Dealing with these situations especially after baby p is like walking on egg shells to do the right thing. I agree she should have been questioned but arrested no not untill enough proof of guilt was found and that had to wait till the autopsy which is what should have happened then and only then should she have been arrested if foul play was uncovered. She now has to live with that stigma for the rest of her life and I am sure the nosy neighbour brigade will be saying no smoke with out fire.

reply to post by Swanseadog



It seems the Mail has missed out some key elements to the story, not surprising..

The BBC has a slightly different version of events that actually puts the Police action into perspective.

Police later arrived at Ms Podmore's home and asked if she could stay with family.

Shortly afterwards, CID officers arrived at her brother's house and said that they wanted to take her in for questioning. When the family protested a van with 15 officers arrived, she said.

So. according to Abby Podmore via the Mail, she said 2 Vans with 17 officers turned up out of the Blue to arrest her.

According to Abby Podmore via the BBC, she said 1 Van turned up at her brothers house after her family objected to the Police attempts to arrest her and her Partner.

So, seeing as the Mail has a track record of sensationalising stories, lets assume the BBC is probably more accurate. CID turn up to her brothers and want to arrest her and her partner for questioning. The family refuse to allow this (why?) and, it would appear they resisted the arrest in some form.

Hence the deployment of the Van and 15 officers as you would need that many to be able to effectively control a group of agitated and emotional people safely. Obviously, we can't be sure how many people were there, but we know from the BBC article that there were the parents (2 people) and at least her brother (3 people), but also her Mother (4 people) was involved somewhere along the line and possibly other family members (5+ people).

If they tried to shield the parents from arrest, which would be madness whatever your feelings as Justice must take it's course, then you would expect a heavy Police response.

Granted, it wasn't very tactful and maybe they could have waited for the results of the post mortem, but it (the arrest of the parents) wouldn't be outside what appears to be a standard protocol given recent child-death cases.

Originally posted by stumason
They found a dead child, blood coming his nose in his bed. Unexplained cause of death to a child of previous good health.

Nasal bleeding is a reasonably common occurrence in numerous natural deaths.

Why would finding blood coming out of a dead child's nose remotely indicate any foul play on the mother's part ?!

Originally posted by stumason
Until cause of death can be established, the Police must operate under the assumption that something bad could have happened and preserve the scene and any evidence therein.

Which would mean that the parents of every dead child should automatically be arrested on suspicion of murder.

We all know how some parents of cot death victims have been fingered and accused of murdering their child by suffocation, despite the fact that their son/daughter died of natural causes.

Originally posted by stumason
Had they not done that, waitined for the autopsy to come back and found he had died of "suspicious" reasons, but went back to the house to find it cleaned of any evidence and the suspect having eloped to Brazil, what would you say then?

Again, are we going to automatically arrest every parent who has the misfortune of losing their child ?

As previously mentioned, the initial difference between cot death and deliberate suffocation is extremely hard to gauge before a post-mortem.

You appear to be advocating a pre-emptive and presumptuous arrest of the parent(s) of any child who dies.

Originally posted by stumason
I agree it isn't savoury, but I think the Police did the right thing. You would expect nothing less. The only reason people are up in arms is the Young mother bleating and the poor young sod that died. If this was a 45 year old man arrested the later released because his 85 year old mother was found dead in bed with blood pouring from her nose, it wouldn't even make the papers...

Nah, I certainly agree with what you're saying here, but the fact of the matter is that every child's death can be interpreted as unexplained or suspicious. The police need to find some genuine evidence which indicates a parent's involvement in their child's death. Blood coming out of a dead body is not suggestive of a murderous act conducted by a parent.

reply to post by stumason


Why would you take the BBC account over the Daily Fail, I have read similat accounts in several papers not just the DM. and I totally agree with the familys reaction, the daughter was innocent hers your link-

Police later arrived at Ms Podmore's home and asked if she could stay with family. Shortly afterwards, CID officers arrived at her brother's house and said that they wanted to take her in for questioning. When the family protested a van with 15 officers arrived, she said.

- the family protested not a crime nor was it in any way gonna affect the alleged crime scene. They sent a van with 15 officers taking a slegehammer to crack a nut. Face it the police over reacted and jumped the gun. They did not follow protocol as already admitted. They were wrong, just like you are wrong, you can throw up this that and the other but in this instance just like the police you are wrong. The police have certain guidelines for dealing with the death of a child and arresting the mother without 100 per cent definative evidence of foul play this just would not happen, it has bugged me allday so i persuaded a freind of mine, who works for South wales Police, to explain SOP for dealing with such crimes, and belive me what happened here was not the correct way of dealing with a childs death amd the mother would not have been arrested unless she was caught with the pillow over the babys face or whatever. Draconian tactics may work in your ideal world but when you are dealing with a gamut of human emotions you can not work that way.