Near death experience and Descartes' "Cogito ergo sum."

I have twice experienced general anesthesia.

And I do have regularly profound dreamless sleep.

On both instances I was in the state of unconsciousness.

And if I had not returned at all from that state of unconsciousness, then as a human being I have stopped existing, for having passed into definitive biological death.

Nevermore will I ever say, "Cogito ergo sum."

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People who report on their near death experience tell us that they were conscious of seeing and hearing, etc., even about looking down on themselves in the operating table with the doctor pronouncing them dead.

On that basis they were in a state of consciousness but they could not interact with their human environment as also not act on their material environment.

Then they return to consciousness and continue on with life.

So, they have never in the state of near death experience stopped existing as human beings, they even in that near death experience for being conscious at least to themselves can say to themselves, "Cogito ergo sum."

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We can distinguish two kinds of consciousness, namely:

Interactive consciousness and non-interactive consciousness,

And two kinds of unconsciousness, namely:

Definitive death unconsciousness and non-definitive death unconsciousness

Further, we can still submit two kinds of non-definitive death unconsciousness, namely:

Recoverable and unrecoverable.

The person in recoverable non-definitive death unconsciousness will recover and we will know that, when he does recover, while the person in unrecoverable non-definitive death unconsciousness will be finally unrecoverable, and we will know that, when he in the end passes into definitive biological death.

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Coming back to persons who had a near death experience, they have returned from clinical death which clinical death is tantamount to clinical non-existence as human beings, though they could while in near death state say to themselves I still exist as a human being because I can say to myself and be conscious about it, that "Cogito ergo sum."

But if they don't revive, then what?

1. Then they are dead but will continue to be conscious but non-interactive with human environment on the living side of the grave and also non-interactive on material environment, although they could be interactive with persons like themselves who have passed into death, and wherefore there is existence after death but not in the plane of the living on the living side of the grave.

2. Or they will eventually stop being conscious altogether, and that is the end for them, wherefore there is no existence after definitive death with final ending of consciousness -- no more ever consciously to themselves saying, "Cogito ergo sum."

Anyway, people who have had near death experience should organize themselves and tell the rest of mankind that there is hope for existence after death, for they had been there and have come back.


What about those who never come back?

Then atheists can take assurance therefrom that when they do die the final death, everything is done with them, at least in regard to humans on the living side of the grave they atheists will never come back to talk about it.

So?

So, atheists can congratulate themselves.



Pachomius

been put under three times now not nice is it when you come round,I know they say you can't remember anything but I do and it wasn't nice a never ending blackness that's all I remember black an inpenetrable blackness ugh

Originally posted by bauldrick
been put under three times now not nice is it when you come round,I know they say you can't remember anything but I do and it wasn't nice a never ending blackness that's all I remember black an inpenetrable blackness ugh

You mean you were under general anesthesia three times and you can remember that you were aware or conscious of being in "a never ending blackness...an inpenetrable blackness."

In which case you were conscious in regard to the awareness of being in "a never ending blackness...an inpenetrable blackness."

Have you ever been in total darkness so that you cannot see anything at all but all darkness which is equivalent to blackness.

Is that what a blind person never having ever experienced sight 'sees'? all blackness?

Let us ask people who are blind but were seeing previously.

But for being blind as to see nothing but blackness one is still interactive with human environment and on material things, or interactive in a way with oneself.

In your case of being under general anesthesia, did you enjoy interaction with yourself, so that you can reflect within yourself and say to yourself, "Cogito ergo sum" (I am conscious or I think therefore I am or exist).

In my case of general anesthesia and profound dreamless sleep, I don't remember anything, my last memory was of the last event immediately prior to the arrival of unconsciousness; so that when I came about it was like the electric fan blowing again after say a period when electricity was cut off.

History seems and in fact is resumed after the lapse of the hours when I was in general anesthesia or in profound dreamless sleep.

It is that state of existence when I was absolutely unconscious of myself, cannot interact with myself as not to even think of the line saying to myself, "Cogito ergo sum."


Your kind of general anesthesia seems to be not complete.

Have you ever thought of asking your anesthesiologist about that kind of a partial loss of complete consciousness.

It can be terrible if you are conscious of everything including pain except you can't react at all to communicate to the people working on you, hey I am suffering agonizing excruciating pain!

But in that kind of a partial unconsciousness it is not unconsciousness but paralysis, and you can still say to yourself, "Cogito ergo sum."



Pachomius

reply to post by Pachomius


What is really cool is reading about the NDEs from people born blind from birth who could see vividly in their experience. Of from the people who resisted zero brain activity during their NDE proving it was in no way an experience originating in their mind.

reply to post by Pachomius


I don’t think it’s as simple as that because it’s very difficult to bring memories from one different state of consciousness to another

for example if you go out and have a rip roaring night and get very drunk then often its very difficult to remember what happened to you the next day, you have gone from one state of consciousness (drunk) to another (sober) and so the memories don’t transfer so well

or
Waking in the morning – you can ether remember your dreams well or they are very unclear or you simply don’t remember having a dream at all, in which case as far as your waking self is concerned you where profoundly unconscious, a none- cogito ergo sum state – never the less its highly likely you did dream – you just don’t remember

reply to post by Pachomius


hi yes in conciousness being awake I have experienced complete darkness not scary at all just a little unerving until you become accustomed being a builder you have to get into confined spaces and when the halogen light bulb blows your in the dark lol, but I nearly died of a severe kidney infection 3 days unconcious that was different aware of existing but no memory of events or where I was or what was happening just existing and driting back to conciousness not unpleasent at all I suppose it could be likened to the womb not that I have memories of that but there are reported cases espeacialy in reverse hypnosis where they regress you back to your earliest memory . but the three times I was put under was different it was say like a cold dark black feeling not scary but not nice either shudder as I type I really can't put into words the true experience you have to go through it , but when it was through the infection it was warm and pleasent , through this experience I now NO longer fear death it is natural and feel there is more to come after.

the two experiences are worlds apart
I know this if you research Dr Pim Van Lommel a near death researcher and and medical Dr you will be amazed by his research and if you NO longer want to be SCARED of DEATH read some of his case notes they will amaze you espeacialy with the incidents regarding blind people I really hope I have been helpfull as still got questions myself to do with altered states of conciousness anyway hope this helps

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Pachomius

 

What is really cool is reading about the NDEs from people born blind from birth who could see vividly in their experience. Of from the people who resisted zero brain activity during their NDE proving it was in no way an experience originating in their mind.

edit on 9-7-2011 by NOTurTypical because: HTML fail

Wow, it was late late night.

"Or" & "registered"

Originally posted by bauldrick
reply to post by Pachomius

 

hi yes in conciousness being awake I have experienced complete darkness not scary at all just a little unerving until you become accustomed being a builder you have to get into confined spaces and when the halogen light bulb blows your in the dark lol, but I nearly died of a severe kidney infection 3 days unconcious that was different aware of existing but no memory of events or where I was or what was happening just existing and driting back to conciousness not unpleasent at all I suppose it could be likened to the womb not that I have memories of that but there are reported cases espeacialy in reverse hypnosis where they regress you back to your earliest memory . but the three times I was put under was different it was say like a cold dark black feeling not scary but not nice either shudder as I type I really can't put into words the true experience you have to go through it , but when it was through the infection it was warm and pleasent , through this experience I now NO longer fear death it is natural and feel there is more to come after.

the two experiences are worlds apart
I know this if you research Dr Pim Van Lommel a near death researcher and and medical Dr you will be amazed by his research and if you NO longer want to be SCARED of DEATH read some of his case notes they will amaze you espeacialy with the incidents regarding blind people I really hope I have been helpfull as still got questions myself to do with altered states of conciousness anyway hope this helps

edit on 9-7-2011 by bauldrick because: left somethin out

You did not suffer while in general anesthesia in which state however you experienced, i.e., were aware of being in total blackness(?).

Not even suffering of the kind being bored with nothing but blackness(?).

Did you ask yourself then how long is this condition going to last?

Suppose it would last forever, then you are existing only insofar as awareness of being in an impenetrable blackness is concerned.

Try to recall, could you at least think while being in a state of being aware of impenetrable blackness, think of whether forgive me this is what hell is all about, and not being burned without being annihilated into non-existence?

You know, everyone, this thing of near death experience is the nearest 'thing' we have to the dead coming back to talk about being dead while being dead, their experiences then.

Okay, asking everyone specially people who have had a near death experience, what is your message for mankind?

I mean like love one another, no more war whatsoever, or there is life after death whatever, or there is God maker of everything that is not God Himself, or eat drink be merry because there is no hell whatsoever.

Let's hear from all kinds of people who have had NDE, theists, atheists, sexual perverts of the most 'deadly' kinds, serial killers (if such characters also experience NDE), good people and bad people for us all who do distinguish between goodness and badness in human acts.

Yes, paging all and everyone with NDE experiences, please get together and study your experience(s) and give us your message for mankind, that is what I want to hear from you.

If at all your message counts for anything at all for mankind at least from your own idea about what counts for mankind to know about, that is for myself the most important thing that we can and should hear from fellow humans with NDE, because they are the people who are the closest to the dead but different only in that they did not stay dead instead come back from death (the clinical death that is, of course).

Pachomius

Addendum:

I seem to be getting the message that people with NDE tell us that from that experience they no longer fear death.

What do they mean by that, no longer fear death?

I guess they mean they are no longer at least sorry for themselves and their loved ones that they are going to be upon death no longer existing as themselves in any way whatever, i.e., no more identity whatever.

I am however more concerned about death in regard to the inconvenience involved in dying, and not so much concerned about no longer existing at all, i.e., becoming completely extinct.

If death is the complete termination of all existence and identity of myself, no use being sorry for oneself as for one's loved ones except that it is a very natural feeling whether you accept it or not.

But here is where one must cultivate the attitude of being philosophical, accepting the reality of total extinction upon death.

Still, prior to becoming dead, for myself I want to be remembered by people I love and who love me, to be remembered while I still live that upon my death their memory of me is a welcome memory, not one whereby they can utter to themselves, well good riddance, he's gone for good, and they would rather forget me if at all possible -- it is possible.

The inconvenience of the period of dying, I understand that modern medicine can help, so that the dying person is not in any and all kinds of inconveniences like for example terrible pain.

How? General anesthesia, regularly administered, so that the dying person is into unconsciousness, that state of existence of a human whereby he cannot say anymore in his mind, "Cogito ergo sum."

In that state, then he is no longer existing as a human but only as an organism still vegetating downward to terminal definitive biological death.

Is that assisted suicide?

I don't think so, because the purpose of the doctor is not to kill you but to let you die without all the inconveniences and indignities of a dying person who cannot even attend to his personal hygiene undertakings which everyone would rather that he does them for himself -- privately.


Pachomius

reply to post by Pachomius


sorry but unless you experience it you will have questions
it is very hard to put into words
time has no meaning
aware of existing but the place was unknown as if it was kept from me ( not my time to know )
no fear or anxiety what so ever complete calm when it was the kidney infection
did not leave body was close to death but in hospital so they obviously did something right sorry couldn't resist lol
time and location did not matter felt safe warm nice even
and yes I no longer fear dieing strange I know but like I say you have to experience it

it was unatural when induced by anethesia
it was cold dark and black not in any way nice shudder
the two experiences worlds apart
not aware of time or locality just existing
felt unnatural in a bad way

sorry this is hard to talk about I have done my best I am sorry if you have further questions I offered a source of research Dr Pim Van Lommel he is a medical dr and near death researcher he has many case notes when you have read some you will get a better picture but conciousness does not need a body to exist once again I am sorry if my answers are incomplete but you have to experience it, now I must take my leave on this topic it is very emotional trying to recall the anesthessia but will do my best to better describe the natural event better tommorrow a much more pleasent memory

Originally posted by racasan
reply to post by Pachomius

 

I don’t think it’s as simple as that because it’s very difficult to bring memories from one different state of consciousness to another

for example if you go out and have a rip roaring night and get very drunk then often its very difficult to remember what happened to you the next day, you have gone from one state of consciousness (drunk) to another (sober) and so the memories don’t transfer so well

or
Waking in the morning – you can ether remember your dreams well or they are very unclear or you simply don’t remember having a dream at all, in which case as far as your waking self is concerned you where profoundly unconscious, a none- cogito ergo sum state – never the less its highly likely you did dream – you just don’t remember

You talk about memory from one state of consciousness and memory from another state of consciousness, and one memory does not include another memory.

Now, I like to ask you whether at least you do have the thought that you did something or were into things and events in that other state of consciousness like for example being drunk, only you can't recall what the things and events you were into in that state of consciousness you call being drunk.

But you do have memory of the things and events you were into previous to the state of drunkenness and memory of things and events when you have come into the sobriety kind of consciousness.

I mean you do have the thought that there was a lapse of time of which you cannot recall the things and the events you were into while say drunk.

There are blank episodes or periods of your memory, that much you know of those blank episodes or periods for which you cannot recall any memory.

But notwithstanding the blank periods of no memory, your knowledge of your history-chain of memory is adequate for you to be aware of your identity as say John Doe instead of someone else or no one else.

So, it is crucially important for self-identity to have a history-chain of memory, some kind of identity database by which you know who you are and what you are.

If that history-chain of memory or what I will now call database dossier is lost to you in your memory bank, notwithstanding that you are fully conscious, then you have lost your self-identity: you don't know what and who you are.

I think they call that total irreversible amnesia.

And if you never regain your self-identity and you are in a society where no one knows you at all and there is no record at all that people can connect to as pertaining to your existence, or you are in an environment that absolutely no one has any information about you, or no one can search successfully into any extant records at all by which they can know what and who you are, then you have ceased to exist in your previous self-identity whatever and and even specially even to yourself.

You have become a non-identity.

That means you can start a new life with a new identity, with the first ever record of your new self as the starting point of your new identity, namely, the time when you realize you have lost all self-identity and must continue to live with a new identity, one that is going to be built up more and more and thus expanded and elaborated, until everyone starting and including yourself know what and who you are.

That would be some kind of an in effect born-again phenomenon.

And that is useful if you are one person who really want to start all over again.

The trick is to be able to wipe your memory clean, absolutely clean, but first you get yourself to a place where no one knows you and there is no record whatsoever of your identity.


Pachomius