A Revolution Did Not Make Us Americans... What Did?

Does anybody ever wonder what would have happened if we were still under British rule? Do you know what would be different? What are the things that make us unique? There are two things I can think of that makes an actual difference to citizens on the ground floor of the US:

Immigration
and
2nd Amendment

Everything else is done in other modern nations and done better. Why is it that the best two things about our nation are the two things that the government wants Americans to be split about? Don't you find it odd that most pro-immigration lefties are conditioned to want more gun restrictions and that most gun-toting righties are conditioned to hate immigration?

There are some of us who realize that there is nothing more American than guns and immigrants but there aren't many. Anybody else really stop to think about why MSM and politicians don't want us to like both?

reply to post by Cuervo


Well that and we would be taxed on every one of our exports. Our cost of living would be more. Our taxes in general would be higher..

Originally posted by mb2591
reply to post by Cuervo

 

Well that and we would be taxed on every one of our exports. Our cost of living would be more. Our taxes in general would be higher..

edit on 4-7-2011 by mb2591 because: (no reason given)

That is all relative. Places with higher cost of living often have higher wages. Look at Norway, for example. They have insanely high taxes and living expenses but their minimum wage (mandated by unions, not government) is around 30USD/hour. This is not relevant, anyway. None of that has anything to do with the thread.

And the tax on export? Do you think that helps up export? Why are we one of the few without tax export yet is falling rapidly behind everybody else in exports? If export tax is so bad, why are the nations who have it, doing so much better with exports? Again, not the point of the thread.

Neither of those things are unique to Americans. What do you think about the actual content in the OP?

2nd amendment has nothing to do with how we became Americans. That is just a simple policy and you could put any part of the Constitution as a reason if your going down that road.

Immigration had a part but so did the blending of cultures with the Native Americans. They adopted alot of our culture but we also adopted alot of theirs thus separating us from the European way of life. There are many many examples of this blending if you study early american history in depth.

Immigration also played a role but not nearly as much. Also the expansion into the Frontier led to the American way of thinking which didn't really occure in Europe or Asia. The Frontier played a huge role in defining Americanism.

The second amendment wasn't even fully recognized to apply to the states until the Supreme court decision in 2010 and the Articles of Federation, which we were under before the Constitution, gave states the rights to have militias but mentioned nothing about the right to bear arms.

Here is a good link about the 2nd amendment:

www.usconstitution.net...


So I'd say your wrong about the second amendment giving Americans their identity.

Originally posted by kro32
2nd amendment has nothing to do with how we became Americans. That is just a simple policy and you could put any part of the Constitution as a reason if your going down that road.

Immigration had a part but so did the blending of cultures with the Native Americans. They adopted alot of our culture but we also adopted alot of theirs thus separating us from the European way of life. There are many many examples of this blending if you study early american history in depth.

Immigration also played a role but not nearly as much. Also the expansion into the Frontier led to the American way of thinking which didn't really occure in Europe or Asia. The Frontier played a huge role in defining Americanism.

The second amendment wasn't even fully recognized to apply to the states until the Supreme court decision in 2010 and the Articles of Federation, which we were under before the Constitution, gave states the rights to have militias but mentioned nothing about the right to bear arms.

Here is a good link about the 2nd amendment:

www.usconstitution.net...


So I'd say your wrong about the second amendment giving Americans their identity.

Regardless of the history of the 2nd amendment, it shapes American identity in undeniable ways. Immigration played a huge role. If it did not, we would have never had the people or infrastructure to ever have expanded in the first place.

At least you treated both of my points the same. That's consistent. My complaint are the people who think one is patriotic and the other is not and why we are conditioned to think that way.

First you'd have to define what "American-ness" actually is.

Personally i'd say it has more do do with nearly three centuries of unimpeded immigration combined with a strong cultural mandate towards the freedom of thought and expression. Please, go find an immigrant; ask them if they came here because they can own a peashooter, or because we won't throw them in prison for having an opinion.

Would it be greatly different if we hadn't revolted against the british? Yeah. we'd be better-off. You know, like Canada, Australia, new Zealand... Basically all our revolution did was put new masters in the big house - masters whose motives had not even a dribble of "noblisse oblige" and were purely profit-driven. This resulted in nearly two centuries of isolation, the largest genocide in human history, and a bloody civil war that still reverberates today, over an issue that was only an issue because of the way we set up our government in the first place.

America would have done okay as a british colony. Hell it was doing okay, and the vast majority of American colonists either openly supported the Crown or refused to take a side in the revolution; it was roughly a three-way split. The institution of conscription (nothing better than making slaves fight at gunpoint in the name of freedom, eh General Washington?) only made the revolutionaries more resented.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


Actually it wasn't ok. Britian was taxing us to pay their war debt which they blamed us for under the premise that they were defending our right to live here. They also put a standing army here which pissed off more than just a third of the colonists.

Had Briton backed off they might have avoided a Revolution but history has been written.

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
First you'd have to define what "American-ness" actually is.

Personally i'd say it has more do do with nearly three centuries of unimpeded immigration combined with a strong cultural mandate towards the freedom of thought and expression. Please, go find an immigrant; ask them if they came here because they can own a peashooter, or because we won't throw them in prison for having an opinion.

Would it be greatly different if we hadn't revolted against the british? Yeah. we'd be better-off. You know, like Canada, Australia, new Zealand... Basically all our revolution did was put new masters in the big house - masters whose motives had not even a dribble of "noblisse oblige" and were purely profit-driven. This resulted in nearly two centuries of isolation, the largest genocide in human history, and a bloody civil war that still reverberates today, over an issue that was only an issue because of the way we set up our government in the first place.

America would have done okay as a british colony. Hell it was doing okay, and the vast majority of American colonists either openly supported the Crown or refused to take a side in the revolution; it was roughly a three-way split. The institution of conscription (nothing better than making slaves fight at gunpoint in the name of freedom, eh General Washington?) only made the revolutionaries more resented.

You kind of made some points I didn't want to actually voice. Basically, what I'm trying to highlight is that fact that the very few things that we do better than the rest of the world, half of us hate.

If the Brits had won? We'd have ended slavery sooner (they did much sooner than us), we would have been much smaller (because English immigration policy wouldn't have changed and it's rather timid), Mexico would be much bigger, Russia would still have Alaska, and the Native Americans might have actually thrived as an independent nation.

So better or worse isn't something I'm wanting to discuss (my opinion is a mixed bag) in this thread but would make a killer one, for sure.

Wrong thread.

reply to post by Cuervo


You have no idea what Briton would have done. To assume they would keep the same polices for America they had for Briton is silly. They wanted America to expand because it meant more tax revenue and they certainly had no love for the Native Americans.

Originally posted by kro32
reply to post by Cuervo

 

You have no idea what Briton would have done. To assume they would keep the same polices for America they had for Briton is silly. They wanted America to expand because it meant more tax revenue and they certainly had no love for the Native Americans.

It's not that they would have had "love" for the Natives; it's just that they wouldn't have expanded quite as far due to there being no immigrants. The indigenous tribes would have had time to adapt and thrive perhaps.

And, yes, they would have had the same policies as England because it would be the UK at that point.

I'm glad to be independent because I'm anti-centralization so I think being centralized in a place across the ocean would be even worse than just across the continent.

The op has raised an interesting question and the answer must be looked at the point of view what if the United States of America never had a revolution:
The following would be true to this day:
One could estimate that 60 to 80% of all of Europe would still be under a monarchy at this time. It was the American Revolution that gave way to the very idea that such was no longer needed to govern a country.
What makes America truly exceptional is that our ideas and when the country has the drive and vision behind it, does exceptional things. No other country can boast that on its own. The revolution was something that the United States did first. The United States pushed the technological barriers and that of scientific frontiers further than any other country out there. The ingenuity and drive, combined with the very nature of the citizens gave way to a concept and greatness that has yet to be rivaled by any other nation. No other country out there has set foot on another planet or body in space, yet it was the United States that successfully put a man on the moon, multiple times. While the op has stated that everything else is done in other modern nations and done better, most of which came from the very ideas that started in the US. Even the very documents, such as the Constitution of the United States, has been looked at and the very ideas copied in a majority of other Constitutions around the world. The British monarchy wasted a precious asset, and when the chips were down, the US leads the way in picking up the pieces. No other country gives more, or is dedicated. And in no other country can a person speak freely, say anything, including vial things, without fear of reproach or reprisal. This was just recently upheld by the Supreme court in 2 different cases, one on the WBC and the case where a man was arrested for saying someone should kill them political candidate Barak Obama. We may not be perfect, yet we still try, most willing to give a hand up not a hand out.