Family: Man killed by CHP not armed, shot 55 times

reply to post by Boreas


I have several 32 round mags for my XD 9mm. Did it even say what they shot him with? I've seen several cops armed with AR-15's here in Phoenix. They have 30 round clips stock.
I'm not trying to side with the cops here without reason man. I just think that bashing them without a really good reason, especially when we have so many, doesn't do anything for the cause of reigning those bastards in.

reply to post by theRhenn


I love to complain about cops as much as the next guy. However, his Mother did say this to the cops.

Karla Vigen told the Modesto Bee this week that her son has bipolar disorder and claimed he had a gun, so she told authorities that her son was armed.

So, he was being all gangster to his Mom claiming to own a gun and ended up getting shot for it.

Originally posted by Q:1984A:1776
reply to post by Boreas

 

I have several 32 round mags for my XD 9mm. Did it even say what they shot him with? I've seen several cops armed with AR-15's here in Phoenix. They have 30 round clips stock.
I'm not trying to side with the cops here without reason man. I just think that bashing them without a really good reason, especially when we have so many, doesn't do anything for the cause of reigning those bastards in.

Nah, I wasn't bashing them, just pointing out that there were only three cops instead of the ten someone suggested. It's pretty clear that his intent was to die, and from the police statement/witnesses reports, it appears there's some agreement on the fact that the man, though unarmed, pretended like he was. Can't blame the officers for not taking a chance.

As far as the weapons used, there is some debate:

CHP officers carry a loaded automatic handgun with 11 rounds, and two magazines on their belts with 11 rounds each, but the gas station eyewitness said he thought the officers used automatic rifles.

Source

And I definitely agree that there must be a distinction made between crooked cops and the men and women who truly put on the uniform to protect and serve. You've got your decent folk and then you've got your jerks that get a kick from the power and ruin trust. Not just cops, it's the same with any profession, race, religion, etc . . .

reply to post by Bramble Iceshimmer


The vest doesn't cover your head, or your femoral artery, or about 6 other fatal spots I could name- come on....

he was hit 55 times?

did they hit him with every round, fired?

one would think they would have dropped him with 6-10.


probably stopped moving with 20 hits.

how can this really happen?

Originally posted by Marrr
reply to post by theRhenn

 

I love to complain about cops as much as the next guy. However, his Mother did say this to the cops.

Karla Vigen told the Modesto Bee this week that her son has bipolar disorder and claimed he had a gun, so she told authorities that her son was armed.

So, he was being all gangster to his Mom claiming to own a gun and ended up getting shot for it.

Im not denying that. Im looking at it in a diffrent light perhaps. All life is precious. The guy had a problem. He was sick. Cops are quick to taser but, in this case they used bullets.

Maybe I'm more biased because I've been in a similar cituation.

Young man (later teens) has issues with his family after his older brother commited suicide. The teen goes through some mental depression where he feels that his mother and father do not care. They are both lawyers and have little to no time to tend or lead their children perhaps. I dont know the details and I dont wish to plant such ugliness on the parents.

One night we got a suicide call. It was out of our jurisdiction but we were closer to the scene than the sherifs office. The location was more on our town's side (just outside of the town limits) and it would take 10+ minutes for the sheriffs office to get there. We went on the scene to give backup as well as first responce since we were only minutes away. The sister runs out of the house screaming "He's got a gun! He's going to kill himself!". Me and my partner instantly ducked down and made our way to the house slowly and cautiously because we knew that when someone wants to kill themselves, it's not that far fetched that he "may" want to take someone with him, especially a cop, since we are not looked on with all that much respect.

We made our way to the house... Drew down on the kid. He didnt have a gun. He must have put the rifle aside or hid it. My guess is, at this point he wasnt really sure what he wanted to do. Even though there was no gun in sight, we kept our guns locked on him. "Let me see your hands! Let me see your hands!!!" is all anyone would have heard at that moment. The sister kept screaming "Dont kill him please! Dont kill him!" I went to school with her. She was my age. The last thing I wanted to do was put a bullet in this kid, but I knew if he made any moves and presented anything that looked like a gun, I would HAVE to shoot him to take away the threat...and his life. Thank be that he did as we asked and we set him aside and started talkin to him. Of course I left out everything up to getting to his room and finding him there, but it's been a long time and I guess I'm just writing as I remember. I noticed on the desk, there was a bag of weed opened at one end and a half smoked joint next to it. I brought it up to my partner, but we knew what the kid had just gone through, so we left it to the parents so they could decide what was best for him. He was taken into custody. I imagine that he had just smoked and missed his older brother who had shot himself in the chest with an M1 just 2 months prior. That was another story, and a devistating one.. that could have been prevented had an outside source NOT interfeared.

Some weeks later, this kid hung himself. I wish I could have done something but he took his own life with no one else around. No guns, no sister..

Even if this kid claimed he had a gun, as a police officer, thats just the crap you have to face. If I died in the line of duity, then I did my job. If I had to shoot this kid, I think I would have rathered to die by his bullet than him from mine. I would not want to live with it.. Even still, I had to deal with this kids death in some way after the fact. It's been years since I thought about this so I guess it didnt effect me all that much... but had I done what these guys had done, I would have hated myself every day wondering what other way there could have been. Now.. His brother... Well, that I do think about all the time. It could have been prevented. This kids death could have also been prevented. When the parents got home, all they did was scream and bitch at him as to how much of a damned waste he was. I wanted to do mean things to them when I saw this, but there wasnt a damn thing we could do about it. Besides, it wasnt even our jurisdiction and the SO most certainly didnt want to tangle with two wealthy lawyers.


Officers could/should use more discression. Unless the person in question ran out of the house and was in the possition to put someone else life in danger, that's diffrent. He may have wanted attention or help, or really wanted to kill himself. But he put no one elses life in danger.

Screaming : I GOT A GUN and running out in public... thats justifiable. You must keep him from hurting anyone else. First.. You try to keep him from hurting himself. Not use exessive force as was clearly done here. How many bullets does it take to kill someone???

With my S&W 357... Just 1.

reply to post by jam321


San Francisco Chronicle says no gun. Silicon Valley says gun...

Conspiracy theories begin.

Originally posted by fooks


probably stopped moving with 20 hits.

how can this really happen?

In the thread about the vet trying to commit suicide by cop, there was a video that showed the whole thing as it unfolded, from police chase, crash, confrontation, to taking him into custody.

Those cops were wired for sound, just watching the video, you could see they were on adrenaline overload. And during the prolonged confrontation, there was much swinging of his gun pointing it at them, threatening them, and you could see, almost feel, how on edge the cops were. When people are wound that tightly and have that much adrenaline in their systems, bad things happen to the people causing them to fear for their lives, including them unloading every shot they have into him.

Im not saying some cops cant maintain a cooler head, and just take him down, but not out. What I am saying is that you better not count on that when you are dealing with people, any people, would up on adrenaline. (or animals for that matter) You really dont want to trigger them to defensive action, because what often comes out of them is often amplified by the adrenaline and fear. Its easy to sit here and say, when YOUR body chemistry is on chill, what you would do, but I know from personal experience that you dont always act rationally when you are in fight or flight mode.

reply to post by theRhenn


Actually this is common with people who are suicidal. They know that calling 911 and stating they are suicidal will not only get medical responding, but law enforcement.

Regardless of the overall circumstances, the process is the person is suicidal. Taking into account mom said the guy was armed also adds another level to the issue.

The officers have to take it at face value that the guy is -
A - Suicidal
B - Armed

We will still exercise the same amount of caution regardless.

The term is called suicide by cop. It entails a suicidal perosn creating a situation that forces the police to respond. After arrival the person who called will do whatever it takes to achieve their ends. They will continue to act irrational, with their behavior and agressiveness increeasing. The suicidal person will then force a split second decision with the officers present.

Usually it involves pointing a weapon at the officers that dont leave room for verbal commands.

Some things to take into account - Just because a person is suicidal, does not mean they are also not homocidal. Situations have occured where a suicidal person will point a gun at the police with the expectation of being shot first. This is not always the case and officers have been shot and killed by suicidal / EDP's.

Just because a person is suicidal does not mean they are only a danger to themselves.

With that being said, im not sure whats up with the number of rounds fired. Its also irrelevant if the person was armed or not. The officers must assume he is since it was reported that way (even if it wasnt it would be assumed as well).

Tragic yes...
100% the fault of the police - nope.

Sooo let's say you have a neighbor you hate.....you find a payphone and call 9-1-1 and tell them your son has bipolar disorder and has a gun and give them your neighbors address.....


They storm in and shoot the guy 55 times....

Well instead of complaining about these trigger happy cops why don't you use the service they are offering?

...I'm just kidding folks don't go doin' that.............................................

reply to post by Pervius


They cant storm into the house unless there is someting specific that raises a mitigating circumstance.
Secondly, your assumption is typical of those who dont understand the system, that the officers are going to just open fire first.

When calling that type of information in, the person who called will be a witness, and as such, will be questioned about what they observed prior to calling the police. If it turns out the neighbor lied to get the police to respond, and the end result would be a death, then the person who called it in is going to be charged for filing a false police report in addition to participating in the wrongful death of the individual.

Although its always nice to see how, no matter what type of ridiculaous hypotheticals people come up with, that in the end you still find a way to blame the police for the actions of others.

The phrase you and others need to learn is personal responsibility, instead of blame the cops for everything.

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
reply to post by wardk28

 

This reminds me of the thread where a veteran freshly back from Iraq tried to commit suicide by cop and he DID have a gun. (He was suffering from severe PTSD.) Those cops in that video were wired for sound, and they would have pumped him full of lead too, except that vet was lucky. There was a female police officer on the scene. And she literally saved his life by talking to him. Her voice and soothing kept him calm and it had a noticeable effect on the male cops too.

I dont blame the cops in this one. Nor would I have blamed the cops if they had shot the vet, had the female cop not been there. They just want to go home alive, and in suicide by cop cases, the person is TRYING to get them to shoot him. You might get lucky and have someone there, male or female, with a cool head and an easy touch soothing touch, but I wouldnt bet on it, myself.

edit on 2-7-2011 by Illusionsaregrander because: (no reason given)

I think the problem with cops is chauvinism. With gal cop's it might be harder to spot, but any guy(heck any person man or woman) with traditionalist or feminist leanings is unfit to wear a badge.

Well I'm used to seeing 10 posts a day about how the police are supposed to do whatever the citizens want and when they do not there is a maelstrom of whining.

Here we have officers doing exactly what the citizen wanted and there's a maelstrom of whining.

Pick a side people!!!

reply to post by Bramble Iceshimmer


You are an idiot plain and simple if you would willing let someone shoot you before you shoot at them. Bullet proof vests are only bullet resistant and there is a lot that is not covered by it... like your head and femeral arteries. Have you never seen or heard a story of a cop killed who was wearing his or her vest? Seriously your post has got to be a joke right...? Please say its a joke, please