Democrats to Take Aim at Gun Laws Amid ATF Probe.

WASHINGTON--The brewing scandal over a federal gun-running probe in Arizona is opening the way for Democrats to raise the issue of more gun-control laws.

A report by the Democratic staff of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee, released Thursday, criticized what it described as low penalties for gun-trafficking violations and lax paperwork requirements. The report cites recent congressional testimony by agents of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives to make the case that weak gun laws are fueling smuggling to Mexico and drug-related violence.

Democrats are holding a forum Thursday highlighting their findings. Their report, prepared for Rep. Elijah Cummings (D., Md.), focuses on shortcomings in U.S. criminal law in pursuing what Mr. Cummings called "international drug cartels that are trafficking tens of thousands of military-grade assault weapons from the United States to Mexico."

The Democratic report cites testimony from some of the same ATF agents who Republican lawmakers have lauded as whistleblowers for raising objections to the ATF Fast and Furious operation. The Democrats, however, focus on testimony such as that from Peter Forcelli, an ATF special agent in Phoenix, who called existing U.S. gun laws "toothless." Mr. Forcelli is among those who described dissent among ATF Phoenix agents over the tactics used in the operation.

Mr. Issa, chairman of the House Oversight committee, at a recent hearing admonished Democrats who tried to discuss gun-control laws, saying that the committee hearing was called to discuss ATF's misdeeds in Fast and Furious, not gun control.

The Thursday forum -- it's not a hearing because the minority party can't call one -- will feature Sen. Charles Schumer (D., N.Y.), an official from Mexico's health ministry, a former ATF operations chief, as well as representatives from several groups that advocate tighter gun-control laws.

Link

Fast and Furious was a nefarious political plan to skew gun seizure stats to support futher erosions of citizen's rights.

Holder and Obama's failed policy of allowing thousands of firearms to get into the hands of the narco terrorists, and to try to use that to create more gun laws, is the epitome of arrogance.

They think you're stupid!

I think the saying is, "from my cold dead hands"

reply to post by camaro68ss


I'm going with Molōn labe.

Wait...so, is the complaint that we should have lax gun trafficking laws? untraceable guns to mexican drug lords...really? your fighting FOR that?

Damn obama...its just not america if you cant black market ak-47's to mexican criminals!

Dey Took arr jerbs!

reply to post by SaturnFX


We have plenty of laws regarding straw purchases and trafficking.

Apparently the ATF has trouble following them. Maybe if the ATF didnt force FFL's to sell to known straw purchasers there wouldnt have been any trafficking?

They want to drop more draconian legislation on our heads because they forced FFL's to break the laws already on the books.

It'd be like if the FBI ordered you to sell crack to some kid then went running to congress crying about how lax the drug laws are.

Originally posted by SaturnFX
Wait...so, is the complaint that we should have lax gun trafficking laws? untraceable guns to mexican drug lords...really? your fighting FOR that?

Damn obama...its just not america if you cant black market ak-47's to mexican criminals!

Dey Took arr jerbs!

I think the complaint and problem is that Obama knowingly let ATF agents to smugle guns to mexico to set up the american people to inact harder gun control laws.

Obama sucks!

Here is a PDF link to the report.

Outgunned

Should be an interesting read.

see are more laws needed when the ones already on the books werent enforced and circumvented by our own government? NO.

no more laws are needed the people should not have to pay for the corruption of the government.

the left uses any excuse to take away guns from us because they know they fear us and they can do whatever they want without any reprecussions as it stands now.

now you take guns away and you wait and see what gets passed.

hey democrats? what part of the secomd ammendment do you morons not get?

you have infringed our rights for decades and thats not good enough your greedy and still want to keep taking more.

nah those those trade security for freedom do not deserve neither.

reply to post by SaturnFX


As the other have stated that is not the point. We currently have laws making "Straw purchases" punishable by up to 10 years in Club Fed. That's pretty stiff.

The point is the government is the one breaking this law and blaming US.

Still failing to see how this effects, in any way, legal gun owners.
the issue is that the slap on the wrist for illegal straw purchasing is weak and should be upped.

Perhaps the atf craptastic event spurned on this move, perhaps its coincidental, however, the suggestion from ops that this somehow erodes civil rights is incorrect.

Now, you can debate about strong verses lax peneltys for illegal straw purchases, and that I guess is a fair argument...but this in no way erodes any legal owner or purchasers rights...beyond the right to do illegal stuff.

reply to post by SaturnFX


Don't think that it does. But will that stop anti-2nd amendment types from trying to use it? I don't think so. Nor do I think it'll work when they do.

Folks, the second amendment is much, much stronger then it's given credit for being. Does this bear watching? Yes. Anything that could possibly lead to an erosion of this most important of freedoms bears watching. I'm of the opinion that, for the moment, at least; it's all sound and fury signifying little or nothing.

my two cents worth.

reply to post by SaturnFX


Forget about the average American gun owner.

You know the backstory of this scheme the ATF was running?

You know their stated intent?

What our laws are "toothless" to do is permit American law enforcement agencies to run into foreign countries and start arresting people.

Do you really want all of the alphabet agencies to be able to pop into any country they want and start rounding people up?

Sure, they already do. The CIA and military. Do you really want more] of this to go on? Especially considering the agency eager to make the arrest is the very agency responsible for the crime in the first place. Without the ATF's interference those guns never would have been trafficked in the first place.

Folks our drug laws have much more to do with the violence in Mexico than our gun laws. Legalize Marijuana.

The very laws the Administration broke during Operation Fast & Furious aren't strong enough? Do you buy the argument that a federal law enforcement agency has opted to break multiple laws that it is charged with enforcing, and facilitated the smuggling of thousands of firearms to foreign criminals, because there aren't enough/stronger laws for it to enforce so it can stop the smuggling of firearms to foreign criminals.

Fast & Furious was falsh flag op that this Administration created. A crisis for the express purpose of limiting a Consitutional amendment they didn't like.

The BATFE agents also said their efforts to combat the cartels would be strengthened with a federal statute criminalizing gun trafficking. Really there is no such law. I'm thinking Lord of War.

Gun control is a bad topic during a presidential cycle.

If the Dems want to nail their own coffin shut.....let them bring it on and find out how many dems jump ship in the voting booth.

reply to post by SaturnFX


You do realize that the dealers informed the ATF of the straw purchases, and the ATF asked the dealers to complete the sales, right? So what good are tougher penalties if the guilty aren't prosecuted?

Originally posted by VAPatriot
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

You do realize that the dealers informed the ATF of the straw purchases, and the ATF asked the dealers to complete the sales, right? So what good are tougher penalties if the guilty aren't prosecuted?

So?

and the argument is moot...plenty of sting operations = illegal activities either run directly by, or instructed by authorities
drug deals, prostitution, etc...
This is no different, except for a incredibly inept plan.

This topic, from what I read, is about beefing up consequences for a criminal activity...I am not sure how a nerfed attempt by the ATS has to do with it beyond lul.

And if anyone thinks that somehow talking about prosecuting illegal gun trafficking a bit tougher will somehow equal into less votes, well, what country are they living in? America is transfixed on crime and punishment...its like porn for rednecks.

A more street level way of discussing this is "Do you think people that traffic automatic rifles through the black market to drug dealers should be punished harder"?

What do you think the answer will be?

So ya, cry out that the ATF botched a sting, but that has little to do with the overall topic.

Originally posted by SaturnFX
Still failing to see how this effects, in any way, legal gun owners.
the issue is that the slap on the wrist for illegal straw purchasing is weak and should be upped.

Try this one on then ...

How about the FACT that one of those guns was used to kill a U.S. Border Patrol agent?

How about the FACT that instead of arresting the people trafficking the guns, they just let them go?

Really ... you actually want to defend the obama administration on this one?

Originally posted by centurion1211

Originally posted by SaturnFX
Still failing to see how this effects, in any way, legal gun owners.
the issue is that the slap on the wrist for illegal straw purchasing is weak and should be upped.

Try this one on then ...

How about the FACT that one of those guns was used to kill a U.S. Border Patrol agent?

How about the FACT that instead of arresting the people trafficking the guns, they just let them go?

Really ... you actually want to defend the obama administration on this one?

Still failing to see how this effects legal gun owners

Did you know that Obama smoked pot in college?
Point being, they are trying to create a healthcare overhall...
but its a FACT he smoked pot...see...see how it relates...
oh, nevermind, it has no relation whatsoever..much like the topic of this thread verses the discussion that followed about the botched ATF

If you lot want to yack about the botched ATF sting, then thats fine...thats one thing

If you want to talk about tightening the strength of illegal weapons trafficking, thats another

They don't relate in subject matter...they just don't...consider how many botched drug deal stings went down, yet yes, class A drug felonys do increase over time in strength...not because they botch drug ops.

man, what the hells wrong with you lot...the point is, you guys are crying this is somehow going to infringe on your right as a legal gun owner, because the ATF screwed up, and now illegal trafficking is going to hurt more

Freaking chewbacca defense...I am getting out of this thread, there must be something in the virtual water here.

reply to post by SaturnFX


OK, BY.

You will obviously never understand.

reply to post by SaturnFX


Take a hike from the thread then ...

Meanwhile, the obama administration has screwed up big time. They're all claiming they didn't know anything - a massive and corrupt cover-up.

Relating to the way you are trying to skew (deflect) the thread, people are worried at the slippery slope the anti-gun people in the administration seem to be attempting to create - taking away gun rights a little bit at a time since going after all of them at once has failed.