(New title:) How are people manipulated by psychopaths?

reply to post by Forevever
Or he convinced someone else to do it for him.

You never know.

reply to post by butcherguy


LOL you're right, I'll never know either cause I don't associate with him anymore
unless it ends up in the papers

in my mind though, his arrogance is off the charts, he wouldn't get someone else to do it for him because he totally would want to take credit for it - and be proud... he really is a nutjob (thats a technical term)

reply to post by matrixportal


Mp, you should think twice before giving advice in your state of mind. You've been diagnosed mpd, and project your shadows onto other people in the form of various labels such as, "psychopath". Not cool at all.

People please be aware that these labels are not meant to be thrown around by ameatures. While I would say that generally, following "your gut" is a good thing, often times if you're not in a healthy state of mind, you're really just hiding from your shadows and doing their bidding.





reply to post by Wolf1nManSkin


You may find this article interesting:

Maladaptive Qualities of Personality Traits

I test around a 60 on T, and higher for N

It seems I tiptoe between a "sub-clinical psychopath" and just a regular eccentric.

All these systems and scales are so very arbitrary and relative to each individuals perspective, but it's fascinating to watch people try to object-ify this silliness!

reply to post by timidgal


Timidgal,
Thanks so much for your openness. The situation you described is "classic", very well-put. I empathize with you, having been there myself, even though I should have "known better."

And yes, I absolutely DO believe in synchronicity. Perhaps it is the next step in your growth -- to have twice in one day been faced with, and DEALT with, the scars left behind by the whole thing.

------------------------------------

TO ALL:

I have been reading through everyone's responses up to here (having just got up this morning). I want to make clear a couple of points:

Pyschopathology is the study of personality disorders: The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders is used by professionals in order to clarify, as best as possible, what specific issues the person has. It was authored by a committee of professionals, and reflects only the "best known" and most widely agreed-upon theories. It is not carved in stone, and it is a tool used for differentiation of one's functioning in their environment. It is ALWAYS subject to change.

It must be remembered ALWAYS, that no two people are exactly alike. The DSM lists different groups of experienced or observed traits, and then carefully delineates one disorder from another.

from page 689:

"General diagnostic criteria for a Personality Disorder A) An enduring pattern of inner experience and behavioral that deviates markedly from the expectations of the individual's culture This pattern is manifested in two (or more) of the following areas:

(1) cognition (i.e., ways of perceiving and interpreting self, other people, and events)

(2) affectivity (i.e., the range, intensity, lability, and appropriateness of emotional response)

(3) interpersonal functioning
(4) impulse control

The criteria then goes on to specify: the enduring pattern is inflexible, pervasive across a broad range of personal and social situations, leads to distress or impairment in important areas of functioning, is stable and of long duration with onset no later, and maybe much earlier than, adolescence being traced, is not better accounted for as a manifestation or consequence of another disorder [that is, one must rule out neurosis or event-related reactions that are transitory], and is not due to the effects of injury or substance use (head injury or hallucinogenic poisoning, for example)

A personality disorder is diagnosed ONLY after ruling out every other possible cause for the behavior

Having said that, there are numerous TYPES of personality disorders, many of which exhibit similar traits to others, but occur in specific combinations or arrangements. There are TEN different specific Personality Disorders in the DSM-IVTR (4th edition, text revision is what the IVTR stands for). and then one for "everything else" the ever-handy "PD Not Otherwise Specified."
(Which, by definition, can be used when the client clearly has many of the traits exhibited by PDs in general, but not in a constellation that is specified by any particular PD.)

All of these are included in the term "psychopath."
It should also be remembered that a NEUROSIS is different from a PATHOLOGY. Professionals always hope to be able to clarify subjective discomforts as a "neurosis" or "reaction" to a stressor (a major life crisis or a response to another or an event that is disturbing).

reply to post by Schkeptick

At some point in the future psychopathy may be a study for sociologists, not psychologists.

Actually, it already is. I am not a psychologist, I have a Master's in social work. Both can become clinical psychotherapists. The difference is that psychologists use the "disease" model to study behavior that is outside the expected norm; and social workers look at the "systems" model, and "client self-determination."

DISCLAIMER: PLEASE REMEMBER this only a very general explanation of the two different schools of thought from the turn of the century when I was a graduate student. It is not directed at any specific person practicing in the field: every practitioner has their own style and beliefs. Not all psychologists or social workers will fit these parameters.

Both types of therapists use the same DSM-IVTR for diagnostic purposes. Neither is qualified to prescribe drugs. That is the sole privelege of Medical Doctors. (NOT PhDs).

So, in other words, if you came to a clinic where I was working with Bitsy (a fictitious psychOLOGIST), you might be assigned to, or choose, either one. The difference is that Bitsy would consider herself the expert and you the "sick" one. She would go about trying to "fix" you, and approach the entire thing from an "I know what's best" POV.

I would consider YOU to be the expert on YOU, and believe that YOU know what's best for you. If you are confused, I will help you try to gain insight, but it is up to YOU to decide what you want to achieve. My job is to help you develop skills -- or discontinue counterproductive behaviors -- or a combination of the two, to help you achieve the goals that YOU have determined are important to YOU. In addition, I would help guide your goals and decisions by looking at all the options and possible outcomes, and help you assess what long-term results would be healthiest and cause the least harm to yourself or others.

Make sense?
So, I consider myself a "sociologist", because i study how societies and social systems influence behavior and people, as well as how people affect those around them, and are in turn affected by others. A "psychologist" is more trained in specific mental ideas and attitudes as "illness."

Like the diff between an MD (Medical Doctor), and an DO (Doctor of Osteopathy) -- both can help, but they have different approaches to the problem.

reply to post by ldyserenity


Please remember, ldyserenity, that this is simply a public forum. If you honestly feel that you need to change your life drastically, please consider getting a professional's assistance. IMO, every person on the planet could benefit from "counseling", and when it comes time to make major decisions, one should think carefully and move only from a place of calm consideration.

I hope you find the best solution for you and your kids.
--WT

My question for team ATS revolves around that tenent. Sociopathology, in my opinion, is pandemic in this world today. At every level of society....from global banking to corporations to neighborhoods to alleyways, we are surrounded by sociopaths.


My opinion is just this. The Aristicrats or nobles have had run of the roost through a monarchy and now a Republic. This elite class has only just been acknowledged recently through the internet or people like you that have to deal with their mental and emotional issues on a daily basis. Believe me when i say, "nothing has changed.' The institution of idiots that have been in charge has not changed one iota, you just have partaken in the arrogance and idiocy that comes with this endowed caste group.

Now you know

Thank you! This is the #1 problem in the world today! We have allowed sociopaths to rise to positions of authority, Congress, Parliment, Royals, Presidents, bureacrats, Corporations, all sociopaths. They are leading us down a path of destruction. This isn't just, my boyfreinds a sociopath, the vast majority of leadership everywhere....SOCIOPATH'S!!! No empathy, no compassion.

Okay, gang,
I want to take a breather here...I've been trying to respond to people's questions and thoughts, but haven't got to everyone yet.

This is, as I had hoped, quite an interesting thread. I appreciate everyone who has contributed, those who feel they have been misled and those who admit they mislead, and those who are looking at it from a research point of view (that would be me).

Keep it going if you like! And to everyone, feel free to PM me if you'd like more private discussion. Again, I am not God, nor do I know everything (no one does, btw), but I am interested in discussing this topic at any time.

Thanks again!

reply to post by timidgal


I'm glad I came across this thread. It is nice to know that I am not alone.

I read your story Timidgal and it reminded me of how I felt after escaping a relationship with a psychopath. Though my story may be somewhat different than yours, the aftermath is the same. I'm sure it is the same for all of us to some degree--a lack of confidence and trust in yourself, feeling like a complete fool, feeling utterly ashamed, feeling like every part of you that ever mattered has been completely vapourized and the continual questioning of whether you did the right thing or not.

Timidgal, you did and are doing the right thing.

My experience occurred about 12 years ago now and like you, I too am very intelligent. In the beginning, this was the most difficult part to accept--that I wasn't smart enough to recognize how thoroughly manipulated and brainwashed I was. Was he right? Was I really stupid? Everyone else saw it, but I couldn't and wouldn't.

I ultimately learned something that you might relate to--for me, it felt like I was going through withdrawal from this situation. It wasn't so much the person, it was the circumstance I felt 'addicted' to. This is what he wanted. I was no longer grounded in my own life, but held in this wicked scenario he wanted to keep me in. My fear and anger fed the situation and what got me out of it was ultimately not caring whether I lived or died. If being dead was what was going to free me, then I was ok with that. This is where he lost control and I was able to escape. He could no longer manipulate me with fear or anger. There is much more to the story, but suffice it to say, when it finally ended, there was nothing left of my former self--I was as devoid and as empty as he was.

Healing from this requires a deep introspective and honest look into yourself. It can be painful journey, but it is worth it. Give yourself time to heal and respect whatever feelings come up. Acknowledge how you feel about yourself (good and bad). Now is not the time to avoid the difficult stuff. Show yourself compassion, not pity. We cannot change the past, but we can certainly learn from it and become better for it. Use this situation to empower yourself and to grow. In time, the shame will disappear and like me and others on this thread, you will be able to help and empower others who have experienced what you have.

Blessings on your journey to rediscovering yourself.

nuumm

Originally posted by wildtimes
I would consider YOU to be the expert on YOU, and believe that YOU know what's best for you. If you are confused, I will help you try to gain insight, but it is up to YOU to decide what you want to achieve. My job is to help you develop skills -- or discontinue counterproductive behaviors -- or a combination of the two, to help you achieve the goals that YOU have determined are important to YOU. In addition, I would help guide your goals and decisions by looking at all the options and possible outcomes, and help you assess what long-term results would be healthiest and cause the least harm to yourself

That's pretty awesome!

I wouldn't seek council with a psychologist or psychiatrist, but love to seek council with friends!

Thanks for being a friend of humanity.

Originally posted by silent thunder
I've been accused of being a psychopath or a sociopath on this board before, and several memorable times in real life.

"Accused" on this board is not a diagnosis. There are plenty of people who toss around these "labels" who have very little idea what they mean. Have you been assessed by any mental health professionals, or taken any of the numerous self-assessment tools?

Mostly because people have disliked my attitude when I reported from several dangerous situations around the world. It is always a perplexing and hard-to-understand accusation for me. I feel I am fairly introspective and sensitive to psychological nuances.

Attitude is one thing. Psychopathology is something else. Don't let it bother you if people around you (who know only the pop-culture pseudo-psych babble that slips with ease from armchair know-it-alls) call you names. If YOU feel subjectively that something is not right with you or that you have problems because of how YOU behave, that's different.

I understand I have a pretty chaotic relationship with multiple women and have been a bit more promiscuious than most men perhaps, but I have never raised my hand against a woman in my life.

Violence is not part of the pattern in many of the personality disorders. Some of the PDs in "Cluster B" -- the 'dramatic/emotional' type -- CAN include irritability and aggression, with physical fighting, but it is not REQUIRED. Some PDs are more self-destructive than other-destructive, some are devoid of feelings altogether.
Bottom line: some people are violent, some are not, whether or not they have a disordered way of interacting with the world. It has more to do with impulse control and anger management than with disordered thinking. Anger is a natural human response. The issue in this field of study is whether what TRIGGERS it is reasonable, and then what is DONE about it.

I understand my job (basically, these days, commodity speculation in war-torn/crisis areas) is morally repugnant to many, and I understand it has put me in situations that are perhaps unusual and hard to communicate that have probably deformed my personality in some way or other.

Is it morally repugnant to YOU?

I was diagnosed with PTSD after an experience last decade in the Sri Lanka Civil war, although I never underwent formal treatment. I think I've been a bit diffiucult since then; I prefer to spend most of my time alone and on the net, which I know my family dislikes. I have a very twisted sense of humor (that I try and usually succeed) in keeping under wraps here, and I know it unnerves people. But I think combat soldiers and others who have been in difficult situations can understand this attitude. It is alway "normal" people I end up horrifying in some way. Thse are my rough edges. Buyt do they make me sick? I've tried so very hard to overcome my akwardness, to learn to write and communicate properly. Am I communicating?

Kudos to you for your insights. Why did you not follow through with treatment? My husband has military-related PTSD as well, and he has benefited greatly from treatment, although he was reluctant to engage at first. Your rough edges don't necessarily make you "sick". PTSD is an extension of what was once a ratonal reaction to acutely horrific experiences. Your efforts to overcome your awkwardness, and to communicate, indicate that you have insight and are aware of how others perceive you. As for "twisted" humor, yes, I think many people (including myself) who have been exposed to outrageous circumstances develop a "twisted" humor. It's a way of coping, and far more acceptable than violence...although some might be sensitive to it and offended by it. The trick is to know wtith whom it's okay to share it.

Yes, you are communicating

I guess what bothers me the most is the either/or aspect of these accusations. If you are accused of falling into one of these categories, its all or nothing, and there is "no cure." You are "recognized" as a flawed individual on some fundamental level and shunned. Psychpathy/sociopathy is viewed as "incurable" and fundamental, and it is said that the only "cure" is to isolate or abandon the accused. Is this true? Is this fair? What happens to people falsely accused? Or people who might share some but not all aspects of psychopathy? What is their redress? How can they prove their fitness and validity as humans?

Actually a person diagnosed (not just "accused") with a PD has been screened for EVERY OTHER POSSIBLE reason for their reactions or responses. There are myriad reasons a person might APPEAR to be distant, uninvolved, lacking empathy, oblivious to the feelings of others, etc. The clinician can ONLY daignose a PD if it has been established clearly and beyond a doubt that the behavior is not caused by illness, injury, disease, abuse, etc and that their responses to others and situations is inappropriate and is PERVASIVE across years.

It has been found that often persons who in early adulthood exhibit the behaviors typical of PDs "mellow" with age. There are always treatments being tried. It is true that there is (FOR NOW) "no cure", because the hard-wiring in the brain is already done (just as their is no "cure" for having a certain eye or hair color). Nevertheles, one can learn to MANAGE one's behaviors (even if it's an 'act') and can practice being more THOUGHTFUL of others and to WATCH themselves in contexts of others. It is hoped that with practice, and profound effort, people CAN learn to appreciate others as PEOPLE with needs, feelings, wants; and not as objects. It ain't easy, and it certainly ain't fun. But it is, IMO, possible to learn to care about others, or at least to understand that you simply can't.

Fitness and validity: very interesting question. I believe one could disprove the unsavory "allegations" by displaying a less self-absorbed and self-serving way of interacting. If one is capable of actually being "sorry" for any harm they may have done, and asks for help and/or understanding, that goes a long way. If one can say "you know, I don't always relate to others in a caring way, and I want to learn to do that better", that helps. Also, if you have only one or two of the behaviors, you can't be diagnosed. There have to be several concurrent behaviors (hence, the "constellation") that are pervasive patterns across many situations, circumstances, and relationships. Every PD has it's own set of "behaviors", and that's the thing with differentiating. If you have symptoms A, C, and F, it must be determined which PDs include those, or exclude them, for example.

"Validating" is the term at hand: People's feelings are valid to them. It may seem unreasonable to others, but EVERYONE wants to feel "validated" or "heard." It's the people who refuse to give others the dignity of "validation", and who are only interested in their own gains/fears/needs, who are really the "sick" ones.

So, if we want to go to the "incurable" part of it....suppose a treatment IS developed, whether chemical, physical, genetic, neurological....whatever. Would we WANT to "cure" the people so "diagnosed"?

For now, we just isolate (or in some places exterminate) the most violent and outrageous offenders, or kep them away from potential victims. I for one would NOT want to be the person to have to decide who we give "shock treatments" or "lobotomies" or "mind-killing drugs" or whatever. But then, I got out of the field because I'm too sensitive to the discomfort of others. It took too much of a toll on me and my family. I coudn't leave it at work.

Not objective enough. Heh. Oh, well.
Live and learn...

reply to post by unityemissions


You're welcome!

If you ever do decide to seek counsel, choose a "licensed specialist in clinical social work" (the credentials behind a person's name differ state by state). Glad to have shed some light on this sometimes-villified profession (it's more of an "art" at this time than a "science").

Originally posted by allprowolfy

My question for team ATS revolves around that tenent. Sociopathology, in my opinion, is pandemic in this world today. At every level of society....from global banking to corporations to neighborhoods to alleyways, we are surrounded by sociopaths.

Thanks, that was the question I asked in the OP...

Now quoting your response:

My opinion is just this. The Aristicrats or nobles have had run of the roost through a monarchy and now a Republic. This elite class has only just been acknowledged recently through the internet or people like you that have to deal with their mental and emotional issues on a daily basis. Believe me when i say, "nothing has changed.' The institution of idiots that have been in charge has not changed one iota, you just have partaken in the arrogance and idiocy that comes with this endowed caste group.

Now you know

I agree with you. It's frightening, and hard to avoid absolute distrust of everyone, especially with the expanded knowledge we now have access to. Wow.

Originally posted by GisfridMaillor
YAY victim- the new mainstream fashion.

Why live your life and do what you want when you can just be a victim and give up all power and hope.

It is not my fault I AM A VICTIM.

Accept personal responseability, move on, stop blaming others for what you cannot do now.

So we are mad at these people because we are jealous of them? Nice fallacy. I guess your the apologist right? Let me fill you in... F--- them they ruined our country.

We all have crap in our lives, some play victim there whole life and some get up dust off and live.

I don't have a crap life. I like my life. It could be better but it could be a hek of lot worse.Better than being a state sponsored bootlicker. heh well they pay good right?

Why be a victim, make things happen. Stop living in the past and living in other people problems.

Because they are effecting my way of life. Apologist.

So yeah "victims" is a pandemin, like the homeless, and homegrown terroism.

All political buzzwords to disable one LOGIC and REASON and use fear,ignorance and hate as a deciding factor. Why do you go on message boards just to spook people? Go back to your government sponsored life

A bunch of people to selfabsorbed to realize that stupide crap holding you back is in your head it is your thoughts. Yeah someone did something to you, so what you really gonna spend your whole life on that?

I don't even know what your talking about now?..eh.. Are you the world's best internet psychoanalyst or what? U mad at us conspiracy researchers? Come on tell the truth

Are you another agent? Hi!

Do they pay you well to wave the pom poms!

reply to post by GogoVicMorrow


Re the Hare Checklist: unfortunately, no, I was not. I was trained on the DSM-IVTR, and also that it is not set in stone. I will look into it further...thanks...
a wikipedia glance at it tells me I need to do some new learnin'!!

There are SO MANY different theories and assessment tools. One of the trickiest things about the profession is deciding which ones to use...hence I say it's an "art" more than a "science."

Originally posted by summer5
He's shallow, ........ incapable of true feelings for anyones but his own.
People are just an objects to them, not a person with any feelings or heart- you really meant nothing to these people. ....... There were so many times that red flags were there, and he talks you out of knowing your own gut feeling.

In regards to mine on the previous page, one time, he took me to an outdoor rodeo. He loved those. It was a good show, but he had me sitting in a wide area with him, under a 90% sun. With no shade anywhere in sight. My arm was second degree burning (when I got home, [which was in another state as well] my cooked skin peeled off for days) I expressed distress to him, and he angrily found a big piece of cardboard and leaned it by me. "There!" The sun did not burn or bother him at all, and this dude is a (English-origin) pasty white guy. And evident,....A cold blooded reptile as well, with ice through the veins, like a rattle snake sunning it'self in Death Valley. Then when we got 'home' to his house, he took me for a drive to show me his town. And glibly informed me I was his toy, as it were. We returned to his home, and I was desperate for coffee. I just got to have my coffee. When he visited me, he told me he needed coffe and I scurried to brew it up for him. Well, he annoyedly took me to a 7-11 to run in and grap a small but pricey bottle of Foldgers Instant for myself. We were discussing his intellectual competitors, and I told him of my conversation with one, and he enragedly announced, "I can't believe how stupid you are!!!" When we got to his home I collapsed on the floor sobbing and pannicking, and he stood over me looking at me like I was a green bug, and said, "Not so loud, you will embarrass me to my neighbors. (He had a reputation as a known author, and had been on TV etcetera).
I have a number of other stories LIKE THIS, UNFORTUNATELY, with other NarciPsychSocios.

"I can't believe how stupid" I was as well. When you are in the process of falling through the cracks of society, your mind is no longer competent to protect you, and you become like a sick wounded rabbit in the wilderness.

reply to post by wildtimes
These are known as true clones, cut of from their heart chakra to their crown chakra put here to confuse the masses even more and to have them believe in atheism. Trust me, i have family members this way.

If everybody knew the true intension of cloning it would literally shock you to the point to were you would ask yourself the question? Am i a clone too?
Threw my research it my understanding they perfected this back in the 40's to put the clones in the front lines of war, so the people who hold the true soul essence would not leave this plane after being shot and killed. Well, they took it a step further, im sure everyone has heard of the baby boomers from the 50's and 60's, well guess what, its freaking bizarre to find out that people are put into places for specific reasons. You must understand this.
The good thing out of all of this is that the MOVIE is about to end and everybody will witness and find out who they really are.

I'm wondering now if my last relationship was with a sociopath... It's kind of funny...when we first got together I found myself researching and deduced that maybe she was a sufferer of Narcissistic Personality Disorder...and from what I see, Sociopathy is a subtype of NPD. /facepalm

I spent two years with this manipulator. She was always the victim and was always right...even when she was wrong...smh. I'm trying to rebuild my life now because of the things I went through with this person. The fact that I was researching this and gave my own diagnosis (I'm studying to be a Psychologist, but nowhere near a point where I will be practicing) says a lot. It means that I saw the signs and was concerned enough to look it up, but I'm wondering why I didn't run the other way. I always marvelled at how she still had a good heart (rough around the edges, but still good) despite everything she had been through, but now I wonder if this what she showed me to reel me in. Yes, I was in "love", but was I manipulated to that point? Don't get me wrong...I understand that I ALLOWED myself to get there. I made a decision, but that decision was based on false information.

My question is where do these people come from? My ex had a difficult childhood and early life that included molestation by a relative, abandonment, rape at a young age, and domestic abuse. This was all before the age of 16. But as noted earlier, there are those that have done terrible things that had a "good" or "normal" childhood so maybe that has less bearing on a person than what we originally though.