Heretic! How they keep you programmed, and it is based on fear

A proper definition of that word is in order.

From (a christian website BTW)

1. fitted or able to take or choose a thing
2. schismatic, factious, a follower of a false doctrine
3. heretic

Most people do not know the #1 definition of that word.

If you 1) choose for yourself, you become a 2) "schismatic, factious, a follower of a false doctrine" (anything other than the Officially Approved doctrine is a false doctrine), therefore you get called a 3) heretic

This is why the church (primarily the catholic church) focuses on conformity. They forbid you from making your own choices. They refuse to allow you to choose for yourself.

If you do choose for yourself, in the not-too-distant past you would have died a rather unpleasant death, then they doom you to eternal hell where demons poke your butt with pitchforks constantly, roast you on spits, dump molten metal down your throat, and all sorts of similar things.

Now they just send you to hell without being tortured to death. I suppose that's progress...

You have the freedom to choose for yourself. Never allow anyone else to make those choices for you. If you do, then you are their slave. If you choose christianity then at least know what it is that you are choosing for yourself.

Being a Heretic is something to be proud of. Of course, I WOULD say that.

Thanks for posting this, I had not seen the first meaning, but it certainly makes sense. I'm not that familiar with the practices of Catholocism, but I know conformity is encouraged and even demanded in most Christian religions, even down to the code of dress.

Conformity is NOT my thang...

i think the catholic church are the biggest

followers of false doctoring worshiping craven images and calling priests fathers and so on

me my self was guided to a small group called the scottish free church which is good for me

do i think they have all the answers NO would i look answers else where YES of coarse

see ing i dont think any one has all the answers

reply to post by LHP666


I have an additional observation to make to your OP. I hope, I can stay on-topic with it.

The conformity-request from theism you mention, is still alive and well, also manifested here on the ATS subforums on religion etc.

Our resident group of active theists contains quite a few self-proclaimed 'true' christians, who in various ways have THE answers, THE interpretation, THE method concerning the bible and christianity in general. And not only do they (naturally) quibble with atheists and other critics of theism, they also quibble amongst themselves.

We have our 'god's soldiers' (read militants, what is a soldier otherwise?), we have the heretic silencers (read censorship, what is silencing otherwise?) and we have the tacticians, who increasingly concentrate on debate-tactics instead of establishing a sound dialogue.

And where the christianities formerly had the power to use open violence to frighten dissidents to silence, the modern version is no less invasive, albeit on a verbal level. The militants, the censors and the tacticians rely on a debate-method of semantics, recently concentrating on character-defamation of opposition and, at the other end of the scale, an alleged 'persecution' of theists.

The immediate aim of this seems to be a scare-technique, making oppostion afraid of appearing insufficient in some way. Now that the traditional fire-and-brimstone threats slowly are getting more ridiculous than realistic, this new 'whip' has developed. But basically it's still the same expression of an authoritative hierarchy model: "Me good, you bad".

There are many facets of the theist/non-theist controversy endlessly being rehashed; in the context of this thread I will highlight a couple:

1/ The almost obsessional fear in active, missionary theists of individualism.

No chance to derogate individualism is passed, and grotesque generalizations are made. Liberal democracy is painted as unbridled hedonistic and nihilistic anarchy (a horror version of Ayn Rand philosophy carried to extremes), because mankind is so idiotic and egoistic, that only 'god's laws can navigate us safely through a reasonable moral existence. The argumentation is ofcourse circular: " 'God is good, because he's 'god', so he' s good. And who are you to question 'god's authority anyway?"

2/ The theist fear of objective procedure.

That objective procedure (expressed through science/logic/technology) pragmatically gives mankind many benefits can hardly be ignored. So the theist 'arguments' strangely enough takes the wishy-washy liberal attitude they condemn in societal contexts: "Eventually logic procedure is no better than 'faith' " and non-theist clinging to objectivity do it as a sign of a desparate need of filling out the alleged emptiness from not having a 'god' to direct your life.

The conformity-request is obvious here. NO competition from other systems seeking truth/reality. We theists have the only valid method: "You just do, what we say. Or else you are lost".

All this is theist verbal 'metabolistic waste-products in higher complexities' (a little academic joke). Seemingly directed at people living 4-5 centuries ago.

reply to post by bogomil

Our resident group of active theists contains quite a few self-proclaimed 'true' christians,

Every christian thinks they are True Christians.

I was the same way, except that I was not afraid to say "I don't know" if I didn't know, and then I'd hunt for the answer(s). That is how I beat the programming. But most christians have a big problem saying "I don't know". If they don't know, they will either not address the issue or they will make up some nonsensical answer. But they usually just ignore it.

I thought that what I saw was proof of what they call the "great apostasy" and that I was one of the few that saw through this apostasy. Ironically I was just as blind as they are.

And when it comes to debate tactics, I agree with you. Also that they are amateurish about it. It's as if their ego demands they win all arguments and they will grasp at any straw presented to them.

And I believe that they are entirely capable of dropping the modern debate(!) tactics and going back to the burning times all over again. There is that much hate there. The thing is, they don't generally want to get their hands bloody, so they use proxies. Sometimes that proxy is 'god', sometimes it's the military.

Your points 1&2; I see the same things. It's the "bunker mentality" in action.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Conformity is NOT my thang...

Same here.

I'm soooooooo nonconformist that I don't have a tattoo.

Originally posted by digby888
i think the catholic church are the biggest

followers of false doctoring worshiping craven images and calling priests fathers and so on

me my self was guided to a small group called the scottish free church which is good for me

do i think they have all the answers NO would i look answers else where YES of coarse

see ing i dont think any one has all the answers

If it's good for you, that's all that matters.

I just can't understand how people can give up their sovereignty to another. It's not just the catholic church, but also the protestants. But it seems to me that the protestants focus more on the financial end of the scale instead of the controlling of others lives. Naturally there is some overlap though.

reply to post by LHP666

what have i given up i loved god before i was a christian and now that i am a christian

i still love him but i also know more about him and that not just from the church but thru my own study

i have not changed or been told to change much in my life the only things i have changed are the things i

knew that needed changed and my life was in a right mess thru alcoholism and trying to bring three girls up on my

own and suffering with cfs which had not been diagnosed yet because of the drink i joined the church got help

with my boozing and my family met some realy lovely people who never once judged me

and totally life sorted out

and why would i ever give up my sovereignty
i am the same person i was only

better because of the lord Jesus Christ

reply to post by digby888


I said that if it was good for you, that is all that matters.

I didn't mean to hint that you gave up your sovereignty. That is what you seem to think I was saying.

But many (most) do give up their sovereignty. It's just a matter of degree, not of kind. Some give up more than others, but they still give it away to others in the hope of getting some benefit from christianity / islam. They both depend on submission for their very survival. Hell, islam means submission. Christianity simple depends on submission.

reply to post by LHP666

i do see your point and it is true to some extent but every day we are alive

we submit to something like to the government the people you work for your wife or your husband

so it is not just the church so why single them out

reply to post by digby888


You don't need a church to believe in Jesus; you don't need a bible. The preists (like the goverment) have been telling you what to believe for centuries; that's how they gained their power early; eternal threats; oppression of non-believers by ridicule or stigmatisation. I think it's a God-send that it's starting to lose it's power.

S+F op.

Faith is not wanting to know what is true.

reply to post by LHP666
You might find this thread I did recently interesting.

You don't have to let them take it.

ATS The Time Is Now! Stop The Fear!!

Originally posted by digby888
reply to post by LHP666

 

so it is not just the church so why single them out

Because in my opinion, they have no right to demand anyones submission. Submitting to them is simply a transfer of power to them with no benefit(s).

A person can submit to a boss, spouse (at times...) etc because it is is necessary to get things done. There is a practical purpose for it.

I look at it like this: I ask them "Who the hell are you to demand anything of me?" They are human beings just like me, no more and no less. There's nothing special about them. The only reason (in my opinion) that they can get away with these things is because people put them on pedestals and they do it willingly.

Originally posted by timewalker
reply to post by LHP666

 

You might find this thread I did recently interesting.

You don't have to let them take it.

ATS The Time Is Now! Stop The Fear!!

that's a long thread, but I read the OP. I think you're right. It's all based on unnatural fear. It does seem to be losing its effectiveness.

Hermes Trismegistus

You read Bardon's book Initiation into Hermetics? It's probably the best intro into the occult that I've seen so far.

You seen a UFO. Same here, but they weren't balls of light.

Originally posted by ExistentialNightmare
reply to post by digby888

 

I think it's a God-send that it's starting to lose it's power.

I'm open to that. But we might have differing concepts on who "God" is.
To each his/her own

reply to post by LHP666


I personally believe "GOD" is simply what man doesn't understand; there MAY be a deity (which i doubt), or a first cause (infinite regress?); but at the moment "GOD" is simply the unknown, or an entity that people use to load human characterists on to, (either for comfort or to scare or to frighten other people)

Originally posted by LHP666
If you do choose for yourself, in the not-too-distant past you would have died a rather unpleasant death...

They had to change that because it was becoming to obvious that they were actually the evil ones.

I guess when enough children have been molested by them, people will wake up.

reply to post by LHP666

well again i can only go back to my own story my life was a total wreak before i joined the church

thru depression and drink i tried tacking my own life was in and out of hospital because of it

so the benefits for me were huge and still are and i am sure i am not the only person to have

his or her life change massively because of the church and no i haven't changed the way i dress or the way i speak or live out my daily life

but on the other hand you have governments taken away freedoms and rights all the time and that is definitely

not for our benefit

Originally posted by digby888
reply to post by LHP666

 

well again i can only go back to my own story my life was a total wreak before i joined the church

thru depression and drink i tried tacking my own life was in and out of hospital because of it

so the benefits for me were huge and still are and i am sure i am not the only person to have

his or her life change massively because of the church and no i haven't changed the way i dress or the way i speak or live out my daily life

but on the other hand you have governments taken away freedoms and rights all the time and that is definitely

not for our benefit

I don't intend to belittle the benefits, you've had from faith. Finding a center or something giving meaning can be very helpful.

Furthermore not making the following into an anti-religious statement: This is more a question of psychological mechanisms than of the intrinsic message of religion. I've met many different people in your situation, who've had help from Islam, hindu'ism and buddhism. And some people find a partner in love, and that is their 'salvation'.


I'm somewhat of an anarchist myself (as a theory), and my love for politicians and authority isn't great. But until mankind learns to 'live and let live' (and being fair, decent and honest), we'll have to do with secular (etc) democracy in the meantime.

Compared to the various political totalitarian models and to theocracy, real democracy isn't that bad. In some respects it's actually darned good:

It allows for dissidents (as long as they don't break secular, egalitarian law). Heretics can live in peace in democracy. Which probably is the reason why the fascistic faction of theism hates democracy...it harbours heretics.

Originally posted by LHP666

If you 1) choose for yourself, you become a 2) "schismatic, factious, a follower of a false doctrine" (anything other than the Officially Approved doctrine is a false doctrine), therefore you get called a 3) heretic

This is why the church (primarily the catholic church) focuses on conformity. They forbid you from making your own choices. They refuse to allow you to choose for yourself.

I think you'll find it's more of an issue in Protestant religions. We have all sorts of churchlets, including home churches and each one (as Mark Twain put it) has the "one true doctrine." Westboro Baptist Church isn't recognized as a real church by the First Baptist Church, the Second Baptist Church, the Foot-washing Baptist church, Church of Christ, the snake handling churches, and so on and so forth.

And then there's the amillenialists, the pretribulationers and the postribulationers as well as all the Calvinist variants and the evangelicals. I can't count the number of times I've seen an evangelical pray over another Christian who is dying, praying that they will come to the "true Jesus."