Can anyone explain to me why christianity and the christian god make any sense?

Originally posted by bdb818888
It's just my personal belief.

So there's not really a good reason for me to believe it?

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by bdb818888
It's just my personal belief.

So there's not really a good reason for me to believe it?

Your right , you have to come up with your own conclusions when it comes to religion . I'm a Christian, but there are a lot of terrible things Christians did in the past. The Crusades were cruel , if people didn't accept Christ as their lord and savior , all the men , women, and children , were murdered. cities were wiped out ,millions died because they didn't believe in Christ. In my opinion , God would have been sicken by this travesty.

reply to post by Hydroman

So, before he created anything, he already knew what was going to happen.

One way to understand it could be to imagine all those billions of other planets where people live, and have not fallen into sin.
Knowing that one out of all the expanse of the universe would go bad, may not be such a good reason to not have any universe at all.

Originally posted by Hydroman

Are you not also generalizing christians? You think all christians would show respect for someone if that person spit in their face? There's not a single christian out there who wouldn't retaliate to that? Heck, there's a christian on this forum who has a sig that says "come try to take my guns". What does that mean? That he will blow you away if you try to take his guns? Will all christians love someone who would try to murder them or someone of their family?

Actually I'm not generalizing them. That's how a Christian is supposed to act. If I said, all Christians believe in God, is that a generalization? Of course not, it's just part of the description. Obviously though I doubt every single person who calls themselves a Christian wouldn't retaliate if someone spat in their face, but I was fairly clear on what I meant; simply it's the Christian thing to do.

"Come try to take my guns", sounds like someone is just defending their 2nd Amendment rights. After all, the whole point of that amendment was to ensure that the Government fears the people, not the people fearing the Government.

Why do you generalize us all again and say that we feel miserable and alone in life if we don't have this belief in your god? Do all other belief systems feel alone and miserable in life because they don't believe in your god? What if we don't care about an after life? What if we are comfortable with ceasing to exist?

Care to point out where I made that assumption? If you read my post carefully:

Ah, as opposed to wanting to feel miserable and alone in this life, with nothing to look forward to after death? Gee, that's a great way to live!

Did I say, "as opposed to wanting to feel miserable and alone in this life, like you"? No, I was just referring to the implication you made that Christians should live. I merely stated that it isn't an optimal way to live, with that mindset, for anyone - no fingers were pointed.

So what drew you to your god is the idea of a personal relationship with him? Do you have a personal relationship with him? If so, could you go into detail of what you mean by that? Apollo does pull the sun across the sky, but you can't see him, he's invisible. I also see you brought up all of Allah's bad traits. Should I go read some verses to you from the O.T. to show what your god did? He's the same god you still worship, right? He's the same yesterday, today, and forever according to the bible...

That's not the only thing, but it is a strong factor for many people. And yes, I do. What details could I give you, so that you understand? A personal relationship is just that, personal. I try to include God in everything I do. If I'm in an argument, I maintain my cool and don't get angry, I handle every and any situation I can as a Godly man would, not a Worldly man. Though, it really does come down to being able to speak to Him whenever I want, although obviously I don't hear an audible voice in my head, I know when He speaks. It's just something you feel.

I would love for you to pull up some verses specifically from the O.T. to show me what my God did, it is indeed the same God I still worship, same as before, same as always, and will always be. I don't know what the point would be though, unless you just want to challenge me, which I welcome.

Though, I don't know what you mean by bringing up Allah's bad traits, does he have any good traits?

Is that what they're trying to do? Disprove gods? I thought they were just trying to understand the natural world, and sure some things they discovered were once attributed to supernatural causes, but were they trying to disprove the supernatural or simply understand the natural?

Are you intentionally warping my words around, or just not reading them correctly? Science is indeed trying to understand the world around us, but you answered your own question already - something that once was credited to supernatural causes can be explained naturally, as an example we know that there isn't a man holding up the Earth, that's just the reality of it. Regardless, things like that have been disproved by Science, indirectly, if you will.

What about those who were once Christian but are now Muslim? Or those who were once Christian but are now Buddhists, Hindu, or Atheists? Let me guess, they weren't real christians? Maybe your friend wasn't a real Muslim?

That would be too easy, wouldn't it? I'm honestly under the impression people are abandoning their Ultimate Standard of Truth and replacing it for something else, for example, an Atheist can believe and act just like a Christian, as good as he can be (though claiming to be good without sin is wrong, but that's another story), but abandon God, because there would be no need for Him. That abandonment of an Ultimate Standard of Truth is what I personally believe to be the problem with today's world. Examples, Nature, Science, Idols, Experience, Rule of Law, Communism, Socialism, Capitalism, etc..

Here's an example: Hell. Some people say it is literal, others say it isn't. Here's another, The six days of creation. Some say it was a literal six days, others say it wasn't and some say the whole thing was metaphorical.

I don't see how that "fits in with the times", but I see what you mean now. I figured you meant hundreds of years ago we'd say so-and-so is metaphorical, but now-a-days it's literal. There's dozens of branches of Christianity that are guilty of this, in reality, but the truth of the matter is, anyone who can read the Bible and understand the context of it, can easily distinguish what is literal and what is metaphorical. Example, the Book of Revelations speaks of a beast coming out of the Sea, but we know that whenever it speaks of the Sea, it speaks about the people, government. Not too hard to distinguish what is literal, and what is metaphoric.

You don't believe they are in the right, but they believe they are. So how do you go about finding out who is right and who isn't? How do you get on the same page with your beliefs?

I know, it's a shame, but ultimately the deciding factor comes from yourself. Personally, I find it's rather easy to distinguish between good and evil, but it's not up to me to change the beliefs of everyone around me. Don't get me wrong, I spoke of Muslims earlier, but I know there's a difference between cultural Muslims - generally decent people - and radical Muslims, who would cause harm to others out of a strong faith that they are infidels who need to die. There's a difference in belief between everyone, whether it be based on interpretation or just an environmental factor that they are the way they are - ie, they grew up in an Atheist home, so they are an Atheist.

To be honest though, there really is a thing such as people who just go to church for a Life Insurance policy. It's usually related to the same people you see shouting "God hates fags!", they label themselves something, but don't walk the walk, even though they hear the talk.

Show me one original Hebrew text. None exist. What you see are copies of copies of copies of copies.

You can easily find them online if you wanted, BlueLetterBible would be a good site.

I know many people claim that there are contradictions in the Bible, such as right in the very beginning - they ask; when was the Sun created? If Stars are the source of Light, and God made Light on the First Day, why does it say he made the Sun/Stars on the Fourth Day?

Something like this doesn't sound right, you know? It made me wonder too, why would there be such an obvious contradiction nearly a page away from each other? Reading the Bible in Hebrew is a totally different story, though. In actuality, God made the stars - including our Sun on the first day, the only reason it is mentioned on the Fourth, is because the Hebrew word that is used is actually similar to our word "appoint".

When God "made" the Sun on the Fourth Day, it really means, "he appointed" the Sun to be -our- Sun.

Example, "They made me their leader."

Originally posted by xxblackoctoberxx

That was so flawed, I had to comment about it on the video, but I'll do so here as well.

First off, the first "Contradiction" they pick out is completely inaccurate - The Bible never states Adam and Eve were created at the exact same moment, it merely states they were created on the same day - the Sixth day.

It then goes off to say, in the second chapter, the details of that day, which we're all familiar with, God made Eve from Adam's rib.

How is this a contradiction?

Secondly, the Noah's Ark 'debunking' is just silly - the man states he thinks it's RIDICULOUS how Noah could have fit 10 billion species of Animals in the Ark... which I agree! We don't even have that many species alive TODAY!

The Bible clearly states to get the Animals within the vicinity, if you will. It never tells Noah to go around the world and get 2 of every kind of Animal. I remember reading somewhere where investigators stated that had there been as few as 43 “kinds” of mammals, 74 “kinds” of birds, and 10 “kinds” of reptiles in the ark, they could have produced the variety of species known today.

Originally posted by Lionhearte

The Bible clearly states to get the Animals within the vicinity, if you will. It never tells Noah to go around the world and get 2 of every kind of Animal. I remember reading somewhere where investigators stated that had there been as few as 43 “kinds” of mammals, 74 “kinds” of birds, and 10 “kinds” of reptiles in the ark, they could have produced the variety of species known today.

Very true, thanks for reminding.

If I'm in an argument, I maintain my cool and don't get angry, I handle every and any situation I can as a Godly man would, not a Worldly man.

wow, and god gave you this wonderful gift?

im pretty sure thats what most normal people do, god or not.

in my opinion christians are crazy. but then again so is every other religion, if you just step back and use common sense and logic and read some of the stuff you believe in it sounds nuts, why did god make everything so hard? why not create everything in 1 day? why did god have to rest? so he made eve knowing full well what was going to happen... then whats the point?

the bible makes god sound like a very angry, spiteful, attention craving a-hole.

its like putting an open candy bar in front of a 4 year old and telling him not to eat it 'or else'. its sadistic.

god is pointless, the concept is a safety blanket.

plenty of people dont believe in your cruel christian god and live wonderfully happy lives and are completely content with their lives and death. one day i hope everyone gets over this disgusting use of religion to control people.

p.s. you should watch the rest of that BS episode with penn and teller

reply to post by xxblackoctoberxx

the bible makes god sound like a very angry, spiteful, attention craving a-hole.

There is a problem with the Old Testament that is not addressed, and has been whitewashed with this overarching concept of monotheism. There were different traditions where various older writings were compiled to get something close to what we have today representing the holy scriptures. So what you end up with is competing gods, an example is the story if Gideon, who was staying at a grove of sacred trees and conversing with Yahweh, when a prophet comes over and tells him some prophecy. The man left and Yahweh asked Gideon, "What was that all about?". He answers, "Oh, that was the prophet of God."
So you have one who supposedly is the supreme god of Israel, and he does not know anything about the word of God, when it is coming from another source. Well, in my opinion, it points to what the person in the burning bush is called in the Hebrew, who spoke to Moses, the Elohiym, which in the English translation, is called an angel.
That is a convention of this concept of monotheism, where such inconsistencies are ignored because a proper examination of it would show that these were lesser gods. So, my conclusion is that the Elohiym of Israel was more like an angel, than the actual God who Jesus represented. Paul points out in the New Testament that it was an angel and never raises him to the same status as the God, who is the Father of Jesus. He was a local god of Sinai. One way of understanding this concept is to look at who his direct competition was, Baal, who had his home on a mountain top in Lebanon. Yahweh had his home in the South, on Mt. Sinai, and Baal had his home in the North, as seen from the perspective of Israel sitting in the middle. The followers of Baal looked for the crop nourishing rains to come from the north while the followers of Yahweh looked to the desert storms coming up from the south. They were both depicted as riding a chariot on the top of the storm clouds.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Hydroman

 

So, before he created anything, he already knew what was going to happen.

One way to understand it could be to imagine all those billions of other planets where people live, and have not fallen into sin.
Knowing that one out of all the expanse of the universe would go bad, may not be such a good reason to not have any universe at all.

Since you believe in life on other planets, which is cool, what would happen if they fell?

Next, how do you know that Adam and Eve's sin didn't affect all of them as well? According to the bible, didn't it affect everything on our planet? If what they did affected everything on our planet, why not everything in our solar system? And why not everything in our galaxy, etc? What kind of range does this sin thing have?

Originally posted by Lionhearte
Actually I'm not generalizing them. That's how a Christian is supposed to act. If I said, all Christians believe in God, is that a generalization? Of course not, it's just part of the description. Obviously though I doubt every single person who calls themselves a Christian wouldn't retaliate if someone spat in their face, but I was fairly clear on what I meant; simply it's the Christian thing to do.

Fair enough.

Originally posted by Lionhearte
"Come try to take my guns", sounds like someone is just defending their 2nd Amendment rights. After all, the whole point of that amendment was to ensure that the Government fears the people, not the people fearing the Government.

So, is that the christian thing to do? Blow someone away who has come to take your weapons? Is that what Jesus would do? It seems that you don't have a problem with that but I could be wrong.

Originally posted by Lionhearte
Care to point out where I made that assumption? If you read my post carefully:

Ah, as opposed to wanting to feel miserable and alone in this life, with nothing to look forward to after death? Gee, that's a great way to live!

Did I say, "as opposed to wanting to feel miserable and alone in this life, like you"? No, I was just referring to the implication you made that Christians should live. I merely stated that it isn't an optimal way to live, with that mindset, for anyone - no fingers were pointed.

My mistake. I thought you were saying that in a way to mean that it is how we unbelievers feel.

Originally posted by Lionhearte
That's not the only thing, but it is a strong factor for many people. And yes, I do. What details could I give you, so that you understand? A personal relationship is just that, personal. I try to include God in everything I do. If I'm in an argument, I maintain my cool and don't get angry, I handle every and any situation I can as a Godly man would, not a Worldly man. Though, it really does come down to being able to speak to Him whenever I want, although obviously I don't hear an audible voice in my head, I know when He speaks. It's just something you feel.

So, how do you differentiate your feelings between it being god and it being yourself? Many times I have had people tell me that god told them something and it turned out to be untrue. Many times. Why can't they discern whether or not it was the god of the universe talking to them or just their own feelings? What kind of communication is that, where you have to guess and sometimes get it wrong?

Originally posted by Lionhearte
I would love for you to pull up some verses specifically from the O.T. to show me what my God did, it is indeed the same God I still worship, same as before, same as always, and will always be. I don't know what the point would be though, unless you just want to challenge me, which I welcome.

1. Read the story of Job. Yes, it turned out good for Job, but not everyone else in his family. God allowed it as a wager between him and Satan. How nice would it be if he had a wager like that on you and your family at this moment? 2. 2nd Kings chapter 2. Some young men were making fun of Elisha's bald head. He CURSED them in the name of the Lord. Two female bears came and destroyed all 42 of them. Hey, next time someone makes fun of you, you should try this. 3. Read the story of Jonah. He used his free will and chose not to preach to the people at Ninevah. God sent a storm and Jonah had the men throw him overboard where a giant fish swallowed him. Jonah changed his mind or he would've died. Free will, I guess it's not for everyone. 4. Lot's wife. Just because she turned back to look at the cities being destroyed, she was turned to a pillar of salt? Good lord. 5. Numbers 5: 1-3 God had all sick and suffering people removed from his camp where he dwelled so they wouldn't defile it. Why not just heal them? 6. After a battle that god led his people into, he said, ""Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourself every girl who has never slept with a man." (Numbers 31:17-18) Why did they keep the young girls for themselves? There's a lot more...

Originally posted by Lionhearte
You can easily find them online if you wanted, BlueLetterBible would be a good site.

No, that isn't an original copy. It's just an old copy of a copy of a copy. There are no originals.

Originally posted by Lionhearte
Something like this doesn't sound right, you know? It made me wonder too, why would there be such an obvious contradiction nearly a page away from each other? Reading the Bible in Hebrew is a totally different story, though. In actuality, God made the stars - including our Sun on the first day, the only reason it is mentioned on the Fourth, is because the Hebrew word that is used is actually similar to our word "appoint".

So do you admit to translation problems? How could god allow that? Next, how did the original stories get written down anyways? Did god speak while the authors transcribed what he was saying? How did Moses know what was said in the garden since he didn't exist until 2000 or so years later? Again, did he write down as god spoke to him? How do you know he heard correctly, as I pointed out before I know of many times someone told me something that they were told by god, and were wrong. How do you know this didn't happen all through out the bible being that it happens today in this moment of time?

reply to post by Hydroman

What kind of range does this sin thing have?

Hearing bad news in another country can affect your feelings, like an earthquake in some country you never heard of but you feel bad and want to send some sort of help to them.
Not being infected yourself with sin, from the perspective of someone on another planet, would not exempt you from being affected in other ways. To me it is a clash between a known and visible god, and an almost unknown and invisible God, for supremacy of the universe. From God's perspective (and hopefully from ours, who are directly affected from his misrule) this known god is an usurper, stealing glory not due him. But to the other inhabitants of the universe he seems OK enough and don't readily appreciate how devious and evil he is and would not react in a good way if they witnessed what would seem to them to be an arbitrary execution of what a lot of them think of as the only god they know.
This is why you have things like the Son of God coming in person to deal with this situation and to help bring it to a head to reveal the true nature of the one we would think of as Satan. Then Satan can be killed before the thrones of the judges of the universe and with their approval.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
Well, in my opinion, it points to what the person in the burning bush is called in the Hebrew, who spoke to Moses, the Elohiym, which in the English translation, is called an angel.
Paul points out in the New Testament that it was an angel and never raises him to the same status as the God, who is the Father of Jesus. He was a local god of Sinai. One way of understanding this concept is to look at who his direct competition was, Baal, who had his home on a mountain top in Lebanon. Yahweh had his home in the South, on Mt. Sinai, and Baal had his home in the North, as seen from the perspective of Israel sitting in the middle..

So what are these gods? Are they advanced beings, maybe E.T.s, just labled "gods" and "angels" because they didn't understand who or what they were? Or are they really gods and angels? Where are they now?

Originally posted by jmdewey60
Then Satan can be killed before the thrones of the judges of the universe and with their approval.

So in your opinion, this Satan character isn't a spirit being? How can he be killed if he is already a spirit? If he isn't a spirit, what is he? If spirits can be killed, then wtf? That would mean that if humans have spirits and they die, they become a spirit, but then, that spirit could die too, so then what would they become?

reply to post by Hydroman


That's a lot of terminology which has different connotations for different people so I can't really take your question apart and answer it bit by bit.
Not aliens, because there are no aliens, we are all citizens of the universe.
The god we think of as Satan would be the most powerful being in the universe.
Now God, Himself, is not by the definition, a being, and is not necessarily in the universe since nothing can contain Him.
The god inside the universe and tasked with its care, saw an opportunity to call himself God, seeing as He was not making any appearance to say otherwise. So evil crept into his heart slowly until he eventually went beyond the point where he could ever bring himself to repentance. He decided that since he was beyond forgiveness, that he would just go all-out and create a rebellion and gather as many compatriots from among the angels to join him in his rebellion.
Now from an ordinary person's viewpoint, they would not have any way to be aware that there was a problem or anything could possibly be amiss.
In view of this, it is not such a cut-and-dried proposition on the part of God to end the situation by just grabbing Satan, (or the most high god, to many) and killing him outright.
To answer your question, only God can kill a god.
We are not gods and so can be easily killed, since we do not have access to the special healing properties of the original, pre-fall Earth.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Where do you get this info, and how do you know it is true?

reply to post by Hydroman
Earlier, when I got into this subject, I said

To me it is a clash between a. . .

So this is my opinion and based on a life of picking these things up from church and thinking about them and asking God to help me understand it.
I am not saying if someone does not want to believe it, you are damned, or something.
Mainly I say these things because no one else seems to have any sort of decent answer for why things are the way they are. It is not so difficult, of course this is after over fifty years of study, to understand but it seems most people just want have a glib sort of excuse for not understanding.
I went to visit a church that was doing a drive to bring in new people and I sat down with one of the volunteers after the service and asked her if she had any idea why there is a Satan, and does that seem normal to you? She acted like the thought had never crossed her mind. She said, "We have a choice." I asked her, "What choice?" and she squirmed around in her chair and looked at her leader and said she had to do something.
That is not acceptable to me and I can understand your frustration from people who not only have no answers, but think something is wrong with you for having questions. So, I am offering my answers, according to the way I believe things are. I can't say, "Just pick up this book and turn to page 105 and it is right there." Like I said, I had to fit it all together. I can't say it is absolutely true because these things are not explainable in simple terms, though I do it as if it was.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Thank you for being honest, and I truly appreciate your answers though they may not be and probably aren't true. I like to see what people believe and why they believe it. What I usually find is that these beliefs come down to having faith, which I don't seem to have. I wonder if I'll have to burn for eternity because I can't muster the faith to believe for no good reason?

reply to post by Hydroman


I believe that I was fortunate to have grown up among some people who were deadly serious about their beliefs and were very expert about revelation and what God has revealed to us about the plan of salvation.
I complain quite a bit that those days are gone along with those old timers and what passes for religion today is so synthetic and is the product of think-tanks to create a compliant population who will not question anything and will do whatever they are told by any authority figure. Sickening, and I can not blame you when you are filled with disgust from the hypocrisy. I try to resurrect some of the old-time real organic religion but I get opposition from people who will stand by and make sure you drink the Kool-Aid.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
I believe that I was fortunate to have grown up among some people who were deadly serious about their beliefs and were very expert about revelation and what God has revealed to us about the plan of salvation.

What about those who are not raised that way? Is it too bad for them, that they will be punished forever?