"Chemtrail Deniers", please explain this one.

Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul
reply to post by kalamatas

 

My experience is that I grew up and saw persistent contrails in the late 60's & early 70's - then I became an aircraft mechanic working on those same aircraft (because here were only 10 or so in this country!!) and I know for an absolute fact that they had nothing untoward fitted, and the fuel was kerosene.

As for the comment about "atmospheric conditions is a standard answer" - that is because the science of atmospheric conditions does not change - atmospheric conditions combined with internal combustion made persistent contrails in the 1940's, and atmospheric conditions combined with jet turbine combustion makes persistent contrails in the 1990 and 2000' and 2010's (and before and beyond)

That's the thing about the real world - if the physics makes something happen, then the physics makes it happen and it doesn't care whether you think it is true or not.

Chemtrail believers complain about the "same old explanations" - but the explanations aren't changing because the observations of contrails aren't changing - and that's not going to change!

And there's what I'm talking about right there....the laughing face The funny thing is, you're not talking to me, you're talking to those who don't know the difference. You can say they've been around since the 1940's. I have yet to see any film, pictures, etc. that show criss crossing billowing lines in the sky from any time prior to 10-15 years ago. I'm sure someone has to have them in their photo box of world travels if they so existed back then. But I've never seen them, and apparently all the other "believers" haven't seen them either, so the words don't make it true.

Since you saw them frequently, might you have some family photos that have persisting trails in the sky from back then?

Originally posted by kalamatas
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/4e05fa753bed.png[/atsimg]

So four came out. Two merged and persisted, billowed and stayed, except for a temporary break, The other two didn't merge, continued the entire length without a break but dissipated/ disappeared. The two that disappeared did not necessarily come from one side of the plane. I just drew it that way so that the pictured wouldn't be a jumbled mess, but the trails afterward were how i saw it in the sky. The bottoms ones disappearing. Please excuse my paint job.

That diagram most resembles a combination of aerodynamic contrails (the wide contrails, that go on-off), and exhaust contrails (the narrow contrails, no breaks).

Aerodynamic contrails come off the wings, and are much more dependent on atmospheric conditions, so more prone to on/off behavior. See this video for a great example:


Imagine that, but combine with some regular contrails.

Originally posted by kalamatas
You can say they've been around since the 1940's. I have yet to see any film, pictures, etc. that show criss crossing billowing lines in the sky from any time prior to 10-15 years ago. I'm sure someone has to have them in their photo box of world travels if they so existed back then. But I've never seen them, and apparently all the other "believers" haven't seen them either, so the words don't make it true.

So how do you explain all the science books that describe persisting spreading contrails, back to the 1940s? How do you explain this, from 1969:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/c8743b016717.jpg[/atsimg]
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/fa154f034865.jpg[/atsimg]

contrailscience.com...

The spreading of jet contrails into extensive cirrus sheets is a familiar sight. Often, when persistent contrails exist from 25,000 to 40,000 ft, several long contrails increase in number and gradually merge into an almost solid interlaced sheet.
[....]
Contrail development and spreading begins in the morning hours with the start of heavy jet traffic and may extend from horizon to horizon as the air traffic peaks. Fig. 1 is a typical example of midmorning contrails that occured on 17 December 1969 northwest of Boulder. By midafternoon, sky conditions had developed into those shown in Fig. 2 an almost solid contrail sheet reported to average 500 m in depth.

reply to post by kalamatas

And there's what I'm talking about right there....the laughing face The funny thing is, you're not talking to me, you're talking to those who don't know the difference. You can say they've been around since the 1940's. I have yet to see any film, pictures, etc. that show criss crossing billowing lines in the sky from any time prior to 10-15 years ago. I'm sure someone has to have them in their photo box of world travels if they so existed back then. But I've never seen them, and apparently all the other "believers" haven't seen them either, so the words don't make it true. Since you saw them frequently, might you have some family photos that have persisting trails in the sky from back then?

Please don't take this this the wrong way as it is not aimed at being somewhat snarky towards you in any way. If those that want to ask about photos of contrails from the earlier days would look at previous threads there are so many pics shown it would help out that these same arguments(not in the literal way of arguments) not come up everytime a chemtrail thread is started.I applaude you for asking in a very sincere way for the photos(which doesn't happen often with this subject) but it helps to check out previous threads for some answers. Thanks for the civility of your questions and treatment of the answers you recieved.

I’ve been in electronics repair for decades. It still amazes me how customers cannot identify their own TV. It’s only a week since they last saw it but they can’t even get the color of the cabinet right. I can halfway understand it now since most LCDs look very similar but not 20 years ago. So this argument ‘I never saw persistent trails years ago.’ doesn’t hold water. If you are older than 30 I’m sure you have come up with something else you remember differently than it actually was. It’s a part of life, as you get older. The most common one would be the size of your childhood bedroom.

Secondly just because you or the people you hang with cannot explain something (intermittent contrails) doesn’t mean something nefarious is going on.

There is a posting on airlines.net where the OP asks why the throttle settings in flight would be so different. The common answer was that the plane likely had one older engine. The fuel burn (or waste) would be different between the engines.

reply to post by kalamatas

Strontinum, Barium, Aluminum oxide, viruses, polymers, goo, funky jet fuel? I don't know. But I don know what I've experienced.

There is an explanation for most of these things in the air, and it's not in the jet fuel. Think about the heat......I've seen someone say 3000 degrees recently (I think that is the stated temp, not certain, please correct me if I am wrong). Most of the things you mention could not survive anywhere around a jet engine, but would be burned. But there are all kinds of nasties, including viruses, with a logical reasonable explanation. China has little or no emission control. They spew this into the air every day, where it is picked up, circulated, and deposited half the world away onto the US. It is thought that 1/2 of all the mercury found as "pollution" is from China. And viruses. Here's the source:
Made in China
As for the pictures, movies, TV, etc. showing contrails persisting and spreading out pre-1990? There was a thread asking for those that started just this week. There are tons of stuff about contrails, how and why they form, persist, spread......any question you have about a contrail is available on the web. Look for "contrail studies -chemtrails". Using the "-(minus)chemtrails" takes out most of the distraction caused by "chemtrail". I say 'distraction' because that will take you away from the "popular" sites and stays within the scholarly stuff.
The oldest published science I've found on the web was from the end of the 1920's, about the concern with planes leaving contrails behind bombers. They kind of point the enemy to the planes. That's not good in battle.

Originally posted by kalamatas

You can say they've been around since the 1940's. I have yet to see any film, pictures, etc. that show criss crossing billowing lines in the sky from any time prior to 10-15 years ago. I'm sure someone has to have them in their photo box of world travels if they so existed back then. But I've never seen them, and apparently all the other "believers" haven't seen them either, so the words don't make it true.

no problem - there a whole thread on just that topic that you might not have seen - www.abovetopsecret.com...

there's some links embedded in the thread, and ther's several pages at contrail science that deal with early contrails - such as this one: contrailscience.com... (but check out the links on the left of the page for more)

reply to post by tsurfer2000h


See, the problem I have, which I think others may have experienced to is not remembering back 15 years and thinking I don't remember seeing those, it was being in my late teens in the '90's and noting that one year was different from the previous year, a stark contrast, a plethora of x's and grids in the sky. Something that was now frequently obstructing the clear sunny sky that I sunbathed in frequently the year before and the year before. All of the sudden I avoided going outside to lay out because the sky would be gross and hazy after the messy aftermath of the day's airplanes. Something I never had an issue with before.

I get that we can remember things differently, but we're not talking about having never really paid attention to the sky, started to notice contrails and then have formed a different idea of what I thought I used to see. This is short term comparison and most importantly experience. So?

reply to post by Uncinus


Okay so with pictures and photos showing the existence of persistent trails in earlier years, why were they not as pervasive as when I and others began to notice them. Why did these earlier trails not create the a complete sky covering haze that is pervasive now? Also why if these are just "clouds", do they many times have a different tinge to them? Also why when days where these billow to cover the sky, is a greenhouse-like effect created of abnormal heat and difficult to breath air in places where regular overcast condition don't create the same phenomena?

Once again the problem I having is not just a visual noticing of something odd, but more so a sensory experience of something abnormal when these trails form. Odd humidity, burning nostrils, burning eyes not being able to go outside and lay in the sun, mucky colored sky, halos around the sun that I've never seen with regular clouds.

How can clouds make you feel like crap? and why do they look "dirty" most of the time? Like I said, I have no idea what these are, but everything I experience of them feels toxic, which reinforces the feeling these are not just regular clouds.

Originally posted by stars15k
reply to post by kalamatas

 

Strontinum, Barium, Aluminum oxide, viruses, polymers, goo, funky jet fuel? I don't know. But I don know what I've experienced.

There is an explanation for most of these things in the air, and it's not in the jet fuel. Think about the heat......I've seen someone say 3000 degrees recently (I think that is the stated temp, not certain, please correct me if I am wrong). Most of the things you mention could not survive anywhere around a jet engine, but would be burned. But there are all kinds of nasties, including viruses, with a logical reasonable explanation. China has little or no emission control. They spew this into the air every day, where it is picked up, circulated, and deposited half the world away onto the US. It is thought that 1/2 of all the mercury found as "pollution" is from China. And viruses. Here's the source:
Made in China
As for the pictures, movies, TV, etc. showing contrails persisting and spreading out pre-1990? There was a thread asking for those that started just this week. There are tons of stuff about contrails, how and why they form, persist, spread......any question you have about a contrail is available on the web. Look for "contrail studies -chemtrails". Using the "-(minus)chemtrails" takes out most of the distraction caused by "chemtrail". I say 'distraction' because that will take you away from the "popular" sites and stays within the scholarly stuff.
The oldest published science I've found on the web was from the end of the 1920's, about the concern with planes leaving contrails behind bombers. They kind of point the enemy to the planes. That's not good in battle.

Sure, they'd burn up in jet fuel, but if things are actually being sprayed out of tanks that's a little different right?

reply to post by Uncinus


I couldn't tell in the video, but do aerodynamic contrails come out in streams next to the other contrails? Because what i saw seemed to be four very clear symmetrical streams coming out from behind the planes, with the two joining and the other two dissipating.

Originally posted by kalamatas
reply to post by Uncinus

 

Okay so with pictures and photos showing the existence of persistent trails in earlier years, why were they not as pervasive as when I and others began to notice them. Why did these earlier trails not create the a complete sky covering haze that is pervasive now?

They did - but not as often - there simply were not as many a/c flying - particularly there were not as many high altitude a/c flying

This graphic is from Boeing, and shows the number of large (>60,000lb max takeoff weight) jets, how many hours and takeoffs they performed from 1965 - 2003 (It was published in 2004)



So in 1965 there were about 1500 jets, flying maybe 2 million hours on 1-1.5 million flights.

In 2003 there were almost 18,000 jets, they flew almost 34 million hours on almost 17 million flights.

So 12 times as many jets, 17 times as much flying time, and 12-15 times as many flights


[quot]Also why if these are just "clouds", do they many times have a different tinge to them? Also why when days where these billow to cover the sky, is a greenhouse-like effect created of abnormal heat and difficult to breath air in places where regular overcast condition don't create the same phenomena?

I'm afraid that you haven't really established that any of these things occur at all.

.... halos around the sun that I've never seen with regular clouds.

You've never seen them - but they've been around since people have been looking at he sun - en.wikipedia.org... and especially en.wikipedia.org...

How can clouds make you feel like crap? and why do they look "dirty" most of the time? Like I said, I have no idea what these are, but everything I experience of them feels toxic, which reinforces the feeling these are not just regular clouds.

High clouds don't make you feel like crap - that is you feeling like crap and blaming the clouds because someone has suggested it to you. Sorry. And they don't look like "crap" most of the time either - the vast majority of shots of "chemtrails" show white fluffy cirrus - if any at all!

At least I assume you're talking about induced clouds from contrails. Smog or something like that is entirely different....

So I'm afraid what you have here is probably a bad case of confirmation bias - en.wikipedia.org...

edit on 27-5-2011 by Aloysius the Gaul because: (no reason given)

Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul

Originally posted by kalamatas
reply to post by Uncinus

 

Okay so with pictures and photos showing the existence of persistent trails in earlier years, why were they not as pervasive as when I and others began to notice them. Why did these earlier trails not create the a complete sky covering haze that is pervasive now?

They did - but not as often - there simply were not as many a/c flying - particularly there were not as many high altitude a/c flying

This graphic is from Boeing, and shows the number of large (>60,000lb max takeoff weight) jets, how many hours and takeoffs they performed from 1965 - 2003 (It was published in 2004)



So in 1965 there were about 1500 jets, flying maybe 2 million hours on 1-1.5 million flights.

In 2003 there were almost 18,000 jets, they flew almost 34 million hours on almost 17 million flights.

So 12 times as many jets, 17 times as much flying time, and 12-15 times as many flights


[quot]Also why if these are just "clouds", do they many times have a different tinge to them? Also why when days where these billow to cover the sky, is a greenhouse-like effect created of abnormal heat and difficult to breath air in places where regular overcast condition don't create the same phenomena?

I'm afraid that you haven't really established that any of these things occur at all.

.... halos around the sun that I've never seen with regular clouds.

You've never seen them - but they've been around since people have been looking at he sun - en.wikipedia.org... and especially en.wikipedia.org...

How can clouds make you feel like crap? and why do they look "dirty" most of the time? Like I said, I have no idea what these are, but everything I experience of them feels toxic, which reinforces the feeling these are not just regular clouds.

High clouds don't make you feel like crap - that is you feeling like crap and blaming the clouds because someone has suggested it to you. Sorry. And they don't look like "crap" most of the time either - the vast majority of shots of "chemtrails" show white fluffy cirrus - if any at all!

At least I assume you're talking about induced clouds from contrails. Smog or something like that is entirely different....

So I'm afraid what you have here is probably a bad case of confirmation bias - en.wikipedia.org...

edit on 27-5-2011 by Aloysius the Gaul because: (no reason given)

Slow down there. So are you saying I'm making this stuff up? The picture on wikipedia that shows the halo around the sun in Indonesia is what I've seen...thru the residue of the airplane trails. And given that picture is from 2009, well?

You can't tell me how I feel and assume I'm making the connection in my head because of someone's suggestion. Whose suggestion? I don't frequent chemtrails forums, nor do I engage in taking in other people's experience as my own. Hence I can't definitively say what the hell these things are, because I use my own experience as the basis for what I know. I do know that, I'll feel fine, and go out on a day that has heavy "billowing trailing" and my nose starts burning and I feel tired. I make the connection because of a pattern I experience. Not because of someone else's idea or belief. That's just plain stupid.

Maybe you could come where I live, because it ain't always white fluffy cirrus clouds formed by these planes. It's many times a smoggy looking haze that is formed, and ends up making the sky look filthy on what started as a clear crisp day, regardless of temperature.

I guess I'll be making it a point to take some pictures of what I see, cuz it's not pretty and fluffy.

edit on 27-5-2011 by kalamatas because: n/a

edit on 27-5-2011 by kalamatas because: formatting screwy

Originally posted by kalamatas
reply to post by Uncinus

 

Okay so with pictures and photos showing the existence of persistent trails in earlier years, why were they not as pervasive as when I and others began to notice them. Why did these earlier trails not create the a complete sky covering haze that is pervasive now? Also why if these are just "clouds", do they many times have a different tinge to them? Also why when days where these billow to cover the sky, is a greenhouse-like effect created of abnormal heat and difficult to breath air in places where regular overcast condition don't create the same phenomena?

Once again the problem I having is not just a visual noticing of something odd, but more so a sensory experience of something abnormal when these trails form. Odd humidity, burning nostrils, burning eyes not being able to go outside and lay in the sun, mucky colored sky, halos around the sun that I've never seen with regular clouds.

How can clouds make you feel like crap? and why do they look "dirty" most of the time? Like I said, I have no idea what these are, but everything I experience of them feels toxic, which reinforces the feeling these are not just regular clouds.

Clouds cant make you feel like crap. Its pretty obvious that you are seeing contrails, then you feel bad, and if you did not SEE them, you would not get upset.

Anything being released from an aircraft many miles away and that high, would take hours to come down, and it would come down hundreds of miles away.

Can you show us any instance of ground level air pollution, being traced back to jet aircraft in cruise flight up high? And what do you think makes up ground level pollution?

Originally posted by kalamatas
reply to post by Mactire

 

Gotcha, but since I saw it, I'd still like an explanation for it. I really don't need to prove to anyone what I saw...

Kalamatas:

Great point. You know what you saw. A I played golf, I watched all spring here in S. AZ. as they laid them out. I don't need to prove it, I saw it.

I watched them just float down from high altitude. "They" are so blatant about it.

Regards and Nameste,

-Chung