Jesus: The Greatest Human Sacrifice of All Time?

We all think we know what Jesus is, and perhaps we all recognise the above picture as Jesus......

But consider these realisations:-

FACT: We can't prove whether Jesus existed or not.

FACT: We can't prove the miracles were (and are) true. (That the temporary suspension of the natural order occured)

FACT: Even if we assume the miracles as true, we can't prove that Jesus was sent by a God, or that because of miracles his moral and ethical teaching was the "best".

FACT: We can't prove that one human sacrifice, less than 2000 years ago, in the less literate parts of the desert, absolves an entire species from "sin".

FACT: We can't prove God exists.

I'd like anyone to refute these points. And please be civil. This isn't an attack.

And a couple of questions to pose to anyone who may wish to answer:-

If you were in a situation where someone was trying to perform a human sacrifice, would you be bound to prevent it, to protest it?

If it was today, would you believe it was Jesus? if it was less than 2000 years ago, would you believe it was the savior sent by the entire creator of the universe and all that is?

edit on 21/5/11 by awake_and_aware because: (no reason given)

To all questions - No. I would just stand and watch the idiot sacrifice himself. It would probably be boring though because there wouldn't be any dramatic music and there would be less gore than what you see in movies.

Fact: you cant prove anything.
science 101. you can only support a theory or disprove it , as anyone can come along later and show you were wrong. so as a matter of point, a theory can never be proven.
i learnt that in grade school.

so to say you cant prove god is real is true, but there is plenty of anecdotal evidence that says he is..
its just that he wants us to provide a good story, and explore every aspect of life and death, so we play out all these diffrent stories to understand what it means to be or not to be..

a guy with the same background and ways probably wopuld nothing very different than Osama.
and he is already been killed! well, allegedly....

Another thing in common: Jesus was suposed to go to heaven in flesh and bood, so no proof of his body... should I continue? sea burial, anybody?

reply to post by awake_and_aware


you sound like a disappointed christian,who's had a realization moment,that this nonsense called the bible is just that.... nonsense

reply to post by awake_and_aware


That is what makes the faith so much greater. Blessed are those who believe without seeing. When we read his words we recognize his voice. I don't need proof because i know. Christ does not provide proof because he wants only his True followers, that were with him before we live our human lives. Because we Truly remember his presence, because our souls provide our memories, not in pictures, not in words, but in thought.

reply to post by mikesk8s247


Surely better to live in freedom for one life time than be a slave to a unforgiving god for eternity?

And blind faith,is wholly dangerous for mankind,as blind faith requires no answers and for man not to think or reason ?


Faith is refusing the truth

Originally posted by awake_and_aware

FACT: We can't prove whether Jesus existed or not.

FACT: He was a historical figure. Several historical sources attest to his existence and he left a movement that had a historical impact.

FACT: We can't prove the miracles were (and are) true. (That the temporary suspension of the natural order occured)

FACT: He was a historical figure partly because of the miracles that were attributed to him.

FACT: Even if we assume the miracles as true, we can't prove that Jesus was sent by a God, or that because of miracles his moral and ethical teaching was the "best".

FACT: Jesus said he was sent by God. Jesus said that God was perfect, sinless (morally & ethically the best) and loving. Jesus said that he was in existence only to say and do God's will, hence he was in existence purely to say and be morally & ethically the best).

FACT: We can't prove that one human sacrifice, less than 2000 years ago, in the less literate parts of the desert, absolves an entire species from "sin".

FACT: If Jesus was only human, his sacrifice would have been powerless and would be unable to absolve anyone but himself. If, however, he was "The Supreme Deity" (Jesus said "I and the Father are one"), his sacrifice was truly significant and powerful. The sacrifice of the creator can absolve the creation of its sin.

FACT: We can't prove God exists.

FACT: Many people claim that the existence of God is self evident in creation and that there is absolutely no data or even rigourous theory of how such a complex, beautiful and mathematical universe could have come into being without the application of superintelligence. I happen to be one of these people.

I'd like anyone to refute these points. And please be civil. This isn't an attack.

And a couple of questions to pose to anyone who may wish to answer:-

If you were in a situation where someone was trying to perform a human sacrifice, would you be bound to prevent it, to protest it?

I would absolutely do my utmost to prevent a human sacrifice.

If it was today, would you believe it was Jesus? if it was less than 2000 years ago, would you believe it was the savior sent by the entire creator of the universe and all that is?

I would find it hard to accept that I was sinful and that God would go so far to redeem me from what I obviously deserved. I would hope that I would evaluate the the facts truthfully and do the will of a loving creator God by changing my ways and my motivations to please God, no matter what date it is.

Originally posted by TheMaverick
reply to post by mikesk8s247

 

Surely better to live in freedom for one life time than be a slave to a unforgiving god for eternity?

And blind faith,is wholly dangerous for mankind,as blind faith requires no answers and for man not to think or reason ?


Faith is refusing the truth

No you are wrong. It is better to live a lifetime knowing where you came from and where your going. I do not belong to a God of your opinion which you see as unforgiving, but i see merciful and wonderful God. While i do not have proof that God exists, you have no proof he doesn't. Believing in God gives me the greatest reasoning. I think about everything and have an opinion of everything. God shows me the way of understanding the Truth. You get faith by being blind and being shown the way, once you can see, your Faith gives you the strongest reason, the strongest answers, and unfortunately every thought. There are different perspectives of viewing things and my perspective makes me understand yours, and that yours will not be changed. You don't think either or reason either. You go for answers as long as they are answers, whether they are True or not. They are not.

Faith is not refusing Truth, it's Understanding Truth, and having love and hope, toward people that do.

reply to post by chr0naut

FACT: If Jesus was only human, his sacrifice would have been powerless and would be unable to absolve anyone but himself. If, however, he was "The Supreme Deity" (Jesus said "I and the Father are one"), his sacrifice was truly significant and powerful. The sacrifice of the creator can absolve the creation of its sin.

I and the father are one does not mean i am God.

Fact: he never once claimed he was God. Others did, but he did not.

If he was God he wouldn't have refered to "the father or my father" in the terms he did. He always spoke of two seperate entities.

What makes his death significant is the fact that he proved the existance of life beyond the physical world.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by chr0naut

 

FACT: If Jesus was only human, his sacrifice would have been powerless and would be unable to absolve anyone but himself. If, however, he was "The Supreme Deity" (Jesus said "I and the Father are one"), his sacrifice was truly significant and powerful. The sacrifice of the creator can absolve the creation of its sin.

I and the father are one does not mean i am God.

Fact: he never once claimed he was God. Others did, but he did not.

If he was God he wouldn't have refered to "the father or my father" in the terms he did. He always spoke of two seperate entities.

What makes his death significant is the fact that he proved the existance of life beyond the physical world.

Agreed, he never overtly said "I am God". He did however not disagree when he was called "my Lord and my God". When he was before the Sanhedrin and was being charged with "making himself equal with God" Jesus replied "I am". "I am" is also the hebrew name of God that God used for himself at Mount Sinai when he spoke to Moses. The Sanhedrin were well aware of what Jesus was implying and this was made obvious by their response.

If he had been merely human, his death would have been less significant.

He stated that his death was to bring life to others, through the forgiveness of sins, not just to demonstrate the existence of "the other world". His entire ministry was based upon the assumption of the existence of an afterlife and he dealt with this issue in answering several issues and scenarios posed by religious scholars whe held to the Sadducee viewpoint (which held that there was no life after death).

reply to post by mikesk8s247

No you are wrong. It is better to live a lifetime knowing where you came from and where your going.

So tell me, where do we come from? If a simple belief reveals such wisdom then prey do tell - you could have a potential convertee on your hands if you were to reveal such wisdom.

reply to post by chr0naut


My facts still stand, despite your claims.

You didn't refute my facts, We can't prove any of the claims; i'd be interested to look at evidence if you have any to back up your claims. The burden of proof is not on me.

reply to post by awake_and_aware


I told you i could not prove anything you have said. Where i have come from may be different from where you came from. But thats not a question i can answer for you. Where is the proof of Isaac Newton's laws? where is the proof of evolution? All of a sudden some guy comes out with a book that has his ideas and all of a sudden it's scientifically correct. Nobody knows how we got here. They have guesses and assumptions but there is no time lapse of a monkey transforming into a humun.
Tell Me?
Can you see sound? You cant. Prove it exists.
All energy and matter comes from God.
Energy cannot be Created nor Destroyed
You learn this in school but have you ever thought about it? Have you ever related it to the way God "Was, Is, and always Will be"?

edit on 22-5-2011 by mikesk8s247 because: (no reason given)

]reply to post by mikesk8s247

I told you i could not prove anything you have said. Where i have come from may be different from where you came from. But thats not a question i can answer for you. Where is the proof of Isaac Newton's laws?

Isaac Newton's theory. It doesn't mean the proof was not there before he came up with the theory.

where is the proof of evolution?

Everywhere, there's DNA evidence to confirm it. It's both fact and a theory.

All of a sudden some guy comes out with a book that has his ideas and all of a sudden it's scientifically correct. Nobody knows how we got here. They have guesses and assumptions but there is no time lapse of a monkey transforming into a humun.

Fundamental misunderstanding to think that we evolved directly from the monkeys that we still see alive today - We are by definition - a primate - Like it or not.

Humans did not evolve from monkeys. Humans are more closely related to modern apes than to monkeys, but we didn't evolve from apes, either. Humans share a common ancestor with modern African apes, like gorillas and chimpanzees. Scientists believe this common ancestor existed
5 to 8 million years ago. Shortly thereafter, the species diverged into two separate lineages. One of these lineages ultimately evolved into gorillas and chimps, and the other evolved into early human ancestors called hominids.

Can you see sound? You cant. Prove it exists.

That's about as potent as the question: "if a tree falls in a wood, and there's no one there, does it make a sound?"

Of course sound is there, if we remove all consciouss beings from observation, sound will still exist as vibrational information, just there would be no ears to hear the signals.

All energy and matter comes from God.

So you claim. Where does God come from? He's special right? He doesn't need a creator?

Cool argument.

You learn this in school but have you ever thought about it? Have you ever related it to the way God "Was, Is, and always Will be"?

Sounds like a vague interpretation of infinity, and we still can't prove that reality is infinite or "eternal".

Define God? Is God the universe? (Pantheism)
is God just a divine being that created the universe (Deism)
Or is God a divine being, with sets of rules and regulations about how to live life (Theism)

Atheism is not a positive claim, it's the refjection of Theism's (or Deism's) claim. Atheism can be a positive claim, but i am not idiotic enough to claim something i could never claim.

reply to post by mikesk8s247


You should cut the BS now while you can. There's absolutely no credibility in your argument at all. You're just like the rest of them - delusional, confused, and ignorant of facts. If your god was real, it would be a major announcement to the world that could not be disputed. It would be a scientific fact if it was true, but it isn't.

Originally posted by awake_and_aware
And a couple of questions to pose to anyone who may wish to answer:-

If you were in a situation where someone was trying to perform a human sacrifice, would you be bound to prevent it, to protest it?

If it was today, would you believe it was Jesus? if it was less than 2000 years ago, would you believe it was the savior sent by the entire creator of the universe and all that is?

edit on 21/5/11 by awake_and_aware because: (no reason given)

From a young age we are bombarded with images of what jesus was like, his creed, his ideas his thoughts and yes alot have questioned his color (which i find silly considering were he was *born*) and i have nothing to dispute in any of your facts as they are all pretty true. As my mother always says though just because you cant see somethign it doesnt mean it is not there . im not really religous in the normal sence of the word but i wont hijack your thread, now to answer your questions.

QUESTION 1 - Common sense dictated to me that to stand by and watch another human suffer, be sacrificed (tortured) i would feel it would be my duty to do something. however.......reality is a different thing how many people would actually step aside and be counted when the time comes.. i can guarantee you pretty few would. out of fear or whatever reason, which is a sad state of affairs imo. But then to differ from this slightly if we were in a culture that performs such things as the norm i.e the mayans practiced it - the aztecs and even looking as more recent ones www.missingpersons-ireland.freepress-freespeech.com... people whether rightly or wrongly are so convicted by their beliefs that they interpret and follow there cultures to the letter. do i think its right? no, would i condone it? no. would me personally try to stop it if i saw one? in all honesty i dont know if i would be strong enough to do so.

Question 2- given what i know today, i can truly say that no i probably wouldn't believe it if some guy paraded around claiming to be Jesus , i like thousands probably millions would scoff it off and claim the guy was a nut job. after all we are bombarded by nut jobs everyday in life and the news, so many false prophets ie the various cults out there like the Branch Davidians. 2 thousand years ago mayb we would have believed more, that i cannot say for certain though.

Originally posted by TheMaverick
reply to post by mikesk8s247

 

Faith is refusing the truth

no faith is having belief, enough conviction. read my thread for what i think about having faith understanding faith

blind faith is all someone needs be it for confort or whatever reason, Remember one thing dont be clouded to much by your faith in things, because somtimes you have to look at the evidence and admit that your faith is flawed. I do it all the time, but this is called learning and adapting and evolving as a person.

And that is a very good thing

reply to post by ronishia


Faith is really as simple as making a conclusion before having evidence. Faith is not wanting to know what is true.

I don't have faith that there is a teapot orbitting the sun, because that's a positive theory that has no empirical or logical reason to warrant "faith".

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." - Benjamin Franklin

"The church says the earth is flat, but I know that it is round, for I have seen the shadow on the moon, and I have more faith in a shadow than in the church." --Ferdinand Magellan

"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." - George Bernard Shaw

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan

"And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence." - Bertrand Russell

"Creationists make it sound like a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night." - Isaac Asamov

reply to post by chr0naut

 

My facts still stand, despite your claims.

You didn't refute my facts, We can't prove any of the claims; i'd be interested to look at evidence if you have any to back up your claims. The burden of proof is not on me.

FACT: If you write the word "fact" in front of an opinion, it does not make it any more valid.

I addressed each of your assertions logically, with the best data that I can give and they do actually refute the specifics of what you said (i.e: if you hold my postulates as true, then you cannot logically hold yours as true).

You are right that there is no burden of proof on you. Neither is there a burden of proof on me.

Embrace ignorance!