I can understand the Skeptics Argument.

reply to post by TheLogicalist


In the end, it will be the skeptics that uncover the truth if it is to be had. You will find many of us skeptics have had experiences ourselves. We are honest enough to say we don't know what it was we saw or whether it was an experimental craft of earthly origin or not. Sadly, these days there are more dishonest than honest people involved with this topic.

I personally think that YouTube and the Internet have done more harm than good. The UFO topic has become a form of entertainment, more than a search for truth.

I think many now are drawn to this for the same reasons they seek out religion. They have a hole in their lives and they need to fill it. The UFO topic has become a religion of sorts for them and they treat it like a religion. That's why we see things like the GFL and the transparent madness that surrounds it; choosing myth over reality and living in a fantasy world rather than participating in the real world as it is.

in my most basic understanding of intelligent species and the universe, I can come to a reasonable conclusion that they exist simply because I do. Our planet is undenable proof it is possible.

it's also safe to assume that if they were highly advanced they would have mapped out our galaxy and began investigating, they could be in the process of searching out our star and it's planetary bodies.

Originally posted by gortex
As a believer in Extraterrestrial UFO's I think it is important to have a skeptical eye when it comes to video / photographic and even documented evidence .
Far too many people on this forum are willing to buy into youtube video's as evidence of visitation , and totally discount the more logical explanations given as they don't fit with their stated belief .

We all want evidence , just seems that some of us want it more than others

I am a believer also, and have developed a 'skeptical eye' after having being hammered down to size by a few peeps here at ATS. And I have been guilty of being sucked in by youtube videos ( and using them as evidence, probably still will) but I need to ask everyone a question.
If you filmed something you could not identify in the sky, and ruled out the usual culprits in your head..swamp gas/balloons/chinese lanterns/birds etc...what would you do with that evidence?
OK. Send it to MUFON maybe, show it to friends of course. But to get the biggest audience and opinions I would put it on youtube.
I think we all know that amongst the 1000's of dud UFO vids on youtube there is likely to be some gems. Its sorting the wheat from the chaff that is difficult!

Sweeping statements based purely in opinion help, do they? (i.e.) "Some of the biggest names in Ufology are hoaxers and liars..." You mean like, Jacques Vallee, Richard Haines, Dr. Mark Rodeghier, James Carrion, Rich Dolan, Dr. J. Allan Hynek etc............ ???
I used to side with the self annointed skeptics, only because I was good friends with the late Karl Pflock. Then one day, a gang of them (young turds) swarmed me, with intimidations and threats. I wasn't pushing anything, they were going on something I mistakenly hinted at. You have this recent phenomenon of, "Your evidence (including personal privacy records) or it didn't happen, and we will take you down and label you a liar!" It's a strong arm tactic, like, "If you torture someone, that is the only way you will get them to fess up the truth." When everyone in the --FBI-- knows this is a sheer (and vile) crock.
I WOULD NOT DISCLOSE ANYTHING ON A CHAT FORUM (like this one, otherwise, no offense) IF MY LIFE DEPENDED ON IT.

I believe UFO's biggest adversary is out of 1 of 100 UFO reports, pieces of evidence etc the other 99 are rubbish filled attempts for money and attention.

I've seen enough circumstantial evidence and video/photo proof to believe that the earth is being visited by some type of non-terrestrial beings whether they are extra-terrestrial, inter dimensional or other..

I'm starting to wonder with the invention of wikileaks and available avenues to provide disclosure the most simple of steps have been taken to keep the information quiet. That means no memo's, reports or hard data is kept on the subject to prevent a leakage much like a bilderberg convention.

reply to post by Blaine91555


While I am not a skeptic (not exactly) I agree with you. I think that people, while interested in the thread, found this as an entertainment more than a serious thread.

Originally posted by TheLogicalist
First off I'm a believer in the whole aliens are visiting. I've had a few extremely odd experiences myself, maybe they completely normal experiences and I'm just thinking too much about them, or maybe they were actually something paranormal, and truly strange. I like to take a more logical (see my user name makes sense!) look at things.
I will probably will post about my experience when I feel comfortable on this site. Mines isn't as dramatic as others on this site. I posted it on Mufon's old forums and they weren't exactly helpful, or supportive.

Anyway The point of this post is I just want to say I can understand the skeptics argument.
I think they have good reason to be skeptics.

Not one legit photo of a ET.
Not one legit photo of a alien spaceship.
Which right there is proof for a lot of people, that aliens may not be visiting.

Not only that but people are talking about the
*"Cat People"
*Star Gates
*Galactic Federation - I have done a google search for this term and 2 websites are infected with spyware. As I go through the pages of google results one sites"about the galactic federation" page seems to be nearly word for word from a comic book or cartoon. (Its extremely hard to believe)
*Reptillians
*I have also gotten a reference about Galactic Federation from a couple of cartoons and from a few video games.
*Not to mention people on this seem to be have a "internet orgasm" over this youtube Captured alien video which is obvious CGI.

All of the above has very few physical proof.

Alot of the arguments is 100% "hear say" or "I believe."
Also there are few legitimate faces of UFOLOGY

Greer is a guy apparently went into the woods took a photo of a moth or butterfly and called it a "light beings"
enough said.

Wilcocks (as I said in another topic) is a attention whore, when people start to forget about him he comes out with a new random date while not forgetting to remind people about updates to his website or a new book.
When his disclosure date comes closer he down plays it. I am personally surprised this guy still has an audience. How can so many people not see this pattern? When was the last time this guy was right about anything? Yet people follow this guy.

Sure you can reply and say well there are books from astronauts, and high level former officials, I have a very good collection of UFO books. But many of these books are speculative, lacking undebunkable material, full of he said/she said. Many full of unverifiable claims.

Another Skeptics Arguments
Many if not most personal stories (like mines) are unproveable. And those who gain enough publicity and fail Lie Detectors do not help.

If the government knew anything it would have come out by now. Rather they wanted it too or not.

I can agree with this to believe that a government can keep a secret for the past 60-70+ years and now into the age of wikileaks, hackers and no one has been able to find ANYTHING and prove it. That is probably the most disturbing thing for believers, and one of the most convincing arguments for skeptics.

Basically I just wanted to get that out of my brain lol.

I can understand a Skeptics argument, ufology has been/ and will continue to be really is a speculative science until someone comes across that Legitimate Alien Signal, Photo, Video, living organism on another world, Official Announcement, etc.

I personally doubt its a fear of aliens, I think they (the skeptics) "want to know" rather as with some people have in their avatars"want to believe".

I hope I didn't offend anyone, this is my first real seriously thought out thread. I just wanted to voice my opinion.

*************************************************************

edit on 8-5-2011 by TheLogicalist because: (no reason given)

edit on 8-5-2011 by TheLogicalist because: (no reason given)

edit on 8-5-2011 by TheLogicalist because: (no reason given)

Hi very interesting thread and I can relate to everything you are saying .. I'd like to mention that those who have had an Alien experience will always undergo critics saying that they are making up a story or suffering from some type of mental illness.

TheLogicalist--You mention this:
"Not one legit photo of a ET.
Not one legit photo of a alien spaceship.
Which right there is proof for a lot of people, that aliens may not be visiting."

My reply to this is :
if only people would understand that many ET experiences take place in the middle of the night ,, not all do but I would have to say most. As far as Photos go I don’t think they are photographable due to some type of Biological substance they are made of now this is my conclusion .. And it also depends on what type of Alien you are talking about .. for those who do believe they have taken the time to research categories of aliens such as the Grays, Reptilians, or Green Translucent. I have always said these creatures are not to be trusted not any of them. Reason why I say this is they are from outer space and contain hazardous material .. The Grays seem to be the most friendly of them all and IMO they are from the Moon who live in the Craters and have underground tunnels and factories where they build UFO's

************************************************************

TheLogicalist--You mention this:

"Not only that but people are talking about the
*"Cat People"
*Star Gates
*Galactic Federation - I have done a google search for this term and 2 websites are infected with spyware. As I go through the pages of google results one sites"about the galactic federation" page seems to be nearly word for word from a comic book or cartoon. (Its extremely hard to believe)
*Reptillians
*I have also gotten a reference about Galactic Federation from a couple of cartoons and from a few video games.
*Not to mention people on this seem to be have a "internet orgasm" over this youtube Captured alien video which is obvious CGI.

All of the above has very few physical proof.

Alot of the arguments is 100% "hear say" or "I believe."
Also there are few legitimate faces of UFOLOGY"

TheLogicalist---My reply:
to your thoughts in this section of your thread confuses me you state you are a believer
Why do you find it so difficult for the believer to believe in star gates, Humanoids, Galactic federations?
IMO we have our own universe and Galactic Federation,, which in fact protects all of our planets in our solar system... they protect us from invasion of these Reptilians .. We of course don't see it with our eyes, the fighting that goes on ..


*********************************************************************
TheLogicalist---
you also include this thought :
My reply is after these paragraphs.

Greer is a guy apparently went into the woods took a photo of a moth or butterfly and called it a "light beings"
enough said.

Wilcocks (as I said in another topic) is a attention whore, when people start to forget about him he comes out with a new random date while not forgetting to remind people about updates to his website or a new book.
When his disclosure date comes closer he down plays it. I am personally surprised this guy still has an audience. How can so many people not see this pattern? When was the last time this guy was right about anything? Yet people follow this guy.

Sure you can reply and say well there are books from astronauts, and high level former officials, I have a very good collection of UFO books. But many of these books are speculative, lacking undebunkable material, full of he said/she said. Many full of unverifiable claims.

Another Skeptics Arguments
Many if not most personal stories (like mines) are unproveable. And those who gain enough publicity and fail Lie Detectors do not help.

If the government knew anything it would have come out by now. Rather they wanted it too or not.

I can agree with this to believe that a government can keep a secret for the past 60-70+ years and now into the age of wikileaks, hackers and no one has been able to find ANYTHING and prove it. That is probably the most disturbing thing for believers, and one of the most convincing arguments for skeptics.

Basically I just wanted to get that out of my brain lol.

I can understand a Skeptics argument, ufology has been/ and will continue to be really is a speculative science until someone comes across that Legitimate Alien Signal, Photo, Video, living organism on another world, Official Announcement, etc.

I personally doubt its a fear of aliens, I think they (the skeptics) "want to know" rather as with some people have in their avatars"want to believe".

I hope I didn't offend anyone, this is my first real seriously thought out thread. I just wanted to voice my opinion.


Okay here’s my response to your middle section :

Now this is everything in-between in your thread you speak of Greer, Wilcocks, Books also personal peoples experiences
People who have a ET experience are in fear of not only what they have experienced but also if they discuss it with anyone this is what happens they are scrutinized for failing to prove it if it is something you cannot prove then what?? these beings are not doing this to us because they don’t want us to reveal them it seems to be more to it than that ,,IMO the reason we cannot prove it is they are a part of time that we cannot capture I know this doesn’t make sense ..but in order to be able to photo them the ETs I feel you would have to be living in their time an space as for the UFO's that are being seen and photographed well this is because they are above the ground in space I know that too many of you will not grasp what im trying to say but I’m trying to point out things that took me a very long time to try an figure out the possible answers to the skeptics.
I know the books out there and plenty are they .. every one wants to make a buck and what a easier way to do it so I don’t rely on books as much in fact I haven’t read one yet ..
As for the Government I hate to even get started on this subject,, only because I believe they have destroyed some of our aliens in fear of them ,, I do believe they got as far as birthing humanoids they came that far but something has happened up on the moon and now they are out to get info on Mars ,, Oh I absolutely believe they have hidden records and files and in fact I have discussed them with a member from ATS he has a great source of the files from Government.. Well "TheLogicalist---" I just wanted to point out some information that is not only of my thinking but I have had the chance to discuss these things with other members and out here in the real world I guess as it stands right now ... The skeptics have their good reasons not to believe or half believe .. and on the other hand there are those who will not deny ET's and UFO's exist

reply to post by TheLogicalist


I think you are right - the UFO evidence, such as it is, is voluminous but will not compel even the most honest skeptics to believe in alien visitation. Read Seth Shostak's "Confessions of an Alien Hunter" for a good summary of the skeptic's position. Why is the evidence not compelling? Partly that most of the evidence is of poor quality, depending largely on personal recall. I think however, that the main reason has yet to be well articulated - we have no idea what an alien visitation IS. WE don;t even know if we hae to conceptual equipment to ask the right questions about it. We therefore concoct contact scenarios (The Day The Earth Stood Still, for example), and say "nope, nothing like that."

This needs to be explored more deeply.

Originally posted by cleverhans
There are a lot of absurd theories out there with absolutely no evidence. Many people take this subject a whole lot further, and add their own theories such as hybrids, reptilians, etc. I prefer researchers, like Rich Dolan, who just present the evidence and let us decide for ourselves.

Richard Dolan to me, is the leading researcher on the whole subject. His first two of three books that he is writing, are excellent.

reply to post by TheLogicalist

I am a Sceptical Believer.

I’m incredibly lucky to have witnessed two UFO's. One at night, then another the following afternoon. Had I of not seen these i would not be here today.

Yes, there is a serious lack of physical evidence. However, there is no lack of personal accounts. Should we really disregard these? If we believe to of seen a UFO ourselves, who are we to not believe someone else's account?

One thing i can’t stop relating to all this is that the military are crafty buggers. They would without a doubt use the UFO Phenomenon to keep their latest aircraft a secret. Until all government agencies release previously classified documents stating the UFO Phenomenon was used to cover secret aircraft, i will believe... to an extent.

Anyway, rant over.

There's a lot more going for skeptics, I find, than there are 'believers'.
Note: 'skeptic' doesn't mean 'unbeliever'. Skeptic means just that... a skeptic, someone who is looking at the whole UFO/Ancient Alien theory through a lens of skepticism rather than blind belief. In fact, I find myself offended when anyone calls me a 'believer'. Why? Because it makes me seem like I believe anything said to me.

As for so called 'ancient cave paintings' which are quite often brought up.... quite frankly, there is no way to determine whether or not these are actual re-counted events or the imaginations of a species who just learned how to imagine. Of course, there are those who will talk about 'the missing link' and how the Annunaki (or other space beings) altered our DNA with theirs to make humans... there are those who will say we had a leap in technology over a 100 year span that is unbelievable... there are those who will say 'look at the pyramids of Giza, look at the Nazca lines, look at these advanced civilizations that are now underwater' and I say to you... Look at what MAINSTREAM science is saying about these things... now, I'm not saying it's impossible and stupid to believe that aliens had anything to do with these things, but isn't it equally stupid to simply assume as much? A skeptic often wants to believe... a skeptic usually doesn't let this want to believe interfere with their actual belief system.

Now, it's clear to me that a great many of these "Ancient Astronaut Theorists" are really using this whole UFO 'trend' (if you'll excuse me, it does seem to be a trend) as a tool of propaganda to get people interested in and believing in the Bible and Ancient texts which are religious. They will often say "The Bible LITERALLY happened and this is why: ..." Well, doesn't that sound a little bit sketchy? That they will bring in Priests and reverends and people who are Master Divinators to show 'proof' of alien life forms visiting earth?

Seems like a load of BS to me. But that doesn't mean theres nothing to it. It means that we should look more closely into it but do not, for crying out loud, believe it for no reason.

This thread makes a good companion thread for this one Worth Saying One More Time

The nonsense that has been allowed to go on in this subject has made us all look like fools, to the point that this subject can't be taken seriously enough to even bother trying to get to the truth. I understand some who have had "experiences" and can't prove jack squat, it happens. But those people should be the most pissed at all at the fact that they say anything and are looked at like tin foil hat wearing idiots thanks to the signal to noise ratio we are all willing to allow to exist.

It has moved to the point now where the damage is almost irreversible, and our own ignorance and idiocy is so ingrained into the societal lexicon that no matter how well we clean our house we will still be laughed at for DECADES. Think about it.

Originally posted by MainLineThis
The nonsense that has been allowed to go on in this subject has made us all look like fools, to the point that this subject can't be taken seriously enough to even bother trying to get to the truth.

Hammer. Nail. Head.

I understand that people like to come to their own conclusions and create their own theories in the UFO community, though this is indeed damaging as once a theory is developed, if logical enough, it will create a following. E.g. The Bob Lazar Story...

There is some truth on these boards. There are some VERIFIABLE facts with names and all on these boards. But to point them out at this time would be a waste. The overall community has made sure that we are all viewed as tin foil hat wearing idiots. So to focus on what may be the truth without the back-up of the public is a waist og time...and ruins the very evidence that we want to use when that environment is conducive to such public conversation.

So, where do we go from here? Keep ignoring reality, or deal with this like we half to and take this subject to the next level?

Not one legit photo of a ET.
Not one legit photo of a alien spaceship.

How do you know?

With all of the thousands of UFO and ET photos and videos, how do you know that any given percentage of them is real or fake?

Undoubtedly, a HUGE percentage is, but if even ONE example is legit, well, there you go.
There have been some videos and photos that even defied the paid debunkers' attempts at doing so (i.e. Condon Committee, etc.).

I think I get the gist of your post, there are a lot of hoaxes out there, far more than real things, which begs the question is the hoaxing intentional to hide the real evidence? And it also gives a nice place to hide the real evidence by saying it is a hoax. I think the most plausible explanation is that during the millions of years of life on earth, it was very possible for aliens to visit from other planets as we supposedly did ourselves. Anyways, it's technically possible so there is no doubt about that. However, as for aliens literally controlling the government NOW well that's a long shot, but perhaps alien technology could be in our very homes as we speak and we may not realize it. Or it could just all be human intervention. What built the pyramids? Human effort or alien technology? How about microwaves? Human effort or alien technology? It's probably just human technology but that doesn't mean aliens can't exist. And while we're on the subject, how did humans get to be where they are to begin with? This then branches off into the origin of man, either from God, evolution, or aliens. Maybe it's all three, a principle (God), physical alterations (evolution) and a separate psyche or mind (alien, as in alien to the body).

Originally posted by Blaine91555
reply to post by TheLogicalist

 

In the end, it will be the skeptics that uncover the truth if it is to be had. You will find many of us skeptics have had experiences ourselves. We are honest enough to say we don't know what it was we saw or whether it was an experimental craft of earthly origin or not. Sadly, these days there are more dishonest than honest people involved with this topic.

I personally think that YouTube and the Internet have done more harm than good. The UFO topic has become a form of entertainment, more than a search for truth.

I think many now are drawn to this for the same reasons they seek out religion. They have a hole in their lives and they need to fill it. The UFO topic has become a religion of sorts for them and they treat it like a religion. That's why we see things like the GFL and the transparent madness that surrounds it; choosing myth over reality and living in a fantasy world rather than participating in the real world as it is.

I agree regarding YouTube, etc. Many people, perhaps most people will "believe" almost anything (there's that word again!). There is no filter on YouTube to segregate the utter bilge from something worth seeing. Which, of course makes YouTube totally useless unless you have several hours a day to examine each video. Sounds like a good deal if you are retired. I stay away from the so-called "UFO experts" who build complete fantasy worlds from conjecture and wishful-thinking. That takes away about 50%+ of the "experts".

I hope ya'll don't think I'm trying to pull out the race card?

But I think that a small but significant percentage of "UFO skeptic's," refuse to believe that any race is superior than there own race.

Also, I believe that the Obama adninistration hasn't come clean on full ET disclosure, because if they did, it would turn the major religions of the world into a "rolling cannon's on a cannon deck" type of scenario.

So President Obama, turns his head in prejudice against the major minority religion [religion or not,] of this world; which is the theme of space alien visitation on present day Earth by preventing full ET disclosure.

Obama, wants to get re-elected as president again. So he figures, that he doesn't want to step on any toes, of the major religions buy releasing full ET disclosure.

So President Obama, steps on the toes of people who believe in alien visitation here on Earth- religion or not, and subjects those people to be: The people who can't prove a darn thing about other-worldly craft and there occupants visit's here to Earth; because the Obama administration refuses to release the "above top secret" data on ET disclosure.


Thank's President Obama, thank's for nothing.



Foofighter's forever,

Erno86

Originally posted by TheLogicalist
First off I'm a believer in the whole aliens are visiting. I've had a few extremely odd experiences myself, maybe they completely normal experiences and I'm just thinking too much about them, or maybe they were actually something paranormal, and truly strange. I like to take a more logical (see my user name makes sense!) look at things.
(snip)

I used to frequent this forum but because the percentage of critical thinkers was almost close to zero I found it useless to continue debating with the believers which make up the majority, close to 99.9%. But once in a while I look at the thread titles to see if there's anything of interest and I check out thread titles that include "skeptic". Usually, the authors of such threads are either chiding or challenging skeptics. Sometimes the thread authors claim that they are or were skeptics.

The author of this thread claims to be a logical thinker and has given himself a handle to reflect such. Yet, right off the bat on the opening sentence he admits that he is "...a believer in the whole aliens are visiting." Without any evidence! That kind of thinking is far from logical. It is logical to accept a premise if the evidence supports it. It is illogical to claim to be logical without any evidence.

Therefore, since the author is not being logical and is not a skeptic, he cannot understand the skeptic's argument which is simply: no evidence, no acceptance.