Dear "Atheists": You're Agnostics, get over it.

Actually this is closer to the truth than the Madness thread, most Atheists have repressed the agnostic feelings they started out with. Actually is still inside them but they have repressed it emotionally and mentally to the point that they can proclaim with confidence that they are now an atheist. Some have even said on ATS that they have gone back and forth between the categories. Actually the only true atheist I know on ATS is Madness, he is a purist, otherwise he would never spend this much effort advocating it, and defending it.

They're not so much agnostics as they are willfully suppressing the truth. Most do not really want to know.
And they do not want to provide evidence for their own view. It takes far more faith to be an atheist.

Proof That God Exists

reply to post by mbartelsm


Its really simple...the proof that god (not worthy of capital g) isnt really is the fact that there is no proof that
he ever existed...thats not all i could really gone on all of this year and most of next year giving proofs that god isnt real but i dont feel like it now!

Originally posted by forall2see
I think the world has a plethora of pressing issues much more important than someones personal belief system when it comes to spirituality.

Completely agree with you there, but some times, for the sake of our mental stability, we gotta think like everything is just ok, if you know what I mean.

I'm a Christian...we are all in the dark if faith is shunned. FAITH is not a cop-out....it's a deep down belief not based on evidence that we can be saved.

I have received 'some' evidence though faith but it all begins with faith....

You are right, if there is a god, there is simply no way that we can prove it, it all comes to faith. That's why I keep my mind open, I do good, I help people, but I never forget that there is a higher power.

If a proposed "thing" has absolutely no empirical or measurable effect on reality whatsoever, then it is the exact same thing as saying that it doesn't exist. In fact, the question of "does it exist?" then becomes completely irrelevant.

However the God out there (because there is A god) is responsible of pretty much everything we see and feel, thus the question "does it exist?" is not irrelevant, now add the fact that there is no proof against A god nor in favour of it and you got a completely understandable reasonable doubt.

Can you see God? Feel God? Taste, smell, or hear God? Can you observe any effect that God has on anything else in reality? No. Thus, it is completely pointless and intellectually dishonest to argue that he might exist when he completely fails to meet any of the criteria of "existence" as a concept.

Can you see neutrinos, fell them, taste, smell or hear them? the answer is no, that doesn't mean there are no neutrinos.
And cannot you observe any effect that God has on anything else in reality? everything, EVERY SINGLE THING had to come from somewhere, may be everything we see was created by the big bang, but what created the big bang? after all the "original particle" did contained the mass of the entire universe.

If you and I are on top of a skyscraper on the edge of the roof and I tell you that there is an invisible platform right over the edge that will support you and you won't fall to your death, are you REALLY going to argue with me that there's a 50% chance that it exists and that we can't know?

No, I won't, because I'm a reasonable guy, I see an entire universe and no leads to where it came from, are you really going to argue with me that there is NOT a 50% chance that god exists and we can't know?
It's like the dog metaphor. Lest assume that dogs can communicate with each other, and one dog tells to the others that on the sky there is a beautiful and colorful thing called a rainbow but it can't be seen, of course none of the dogs actually believes it, because none of them can actually see it, nor prove that it exists, but just like us, they cannot prove that there is no rainbow, and as we know, rainbow actually exist.
As an agnostic, I have nothing to loose by believing that there is a great chance that god actually exist, but I have a whole lot to win if god does, indeed, exist. The way I see it, you are the person on the skyscraper willing to jump.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by mbartelsm

 

So...you're going to be childish and drag the discussion away from where you're merely saying "look at the dictionary!' instead of actually bothering to reply to my points...oh, and you're posting this thread because my thread actually bothers to provide the arguments that dismantle your case.

Useless thread.

I'm sorry, I you are talking about that other thread, this one is about a whole different discussion. I will reply to your points in the other thread as soon as I read them.

EDIT: it seems that I replied to your post, you are the one who hasn't replied to me.

Originally posted by 15FORreal
reply to post by mbartelsm

 

Its really simple...the proof that god (not worthy of capital g) isnt really is the fact that there is no proof that
he ever existed...thats not all i could really gone on all of this year and most of next year giving proofs that god isnt real but i dont feel like it now!

Carl Sagan (a famous scientist, director of the SETI institute of the NASA) said: Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

reply to post by mbartelsm


yeah..but i dont care what he says..what I said makes sense..therefore im right and therefore god sint real

Originally posted by 15FORreal
reply to post by mbartelsm

 

yeah..but i dont care what he says..what I said makes sense..therefore im right and therefore god sint real

You are kidding, right? "what I said makes sense..therefore im right"? don't reply to me anymore, I don't want to waste my time.

reply to post by 15FORreal


Well, you can claim that a deity isn't real, but you can't really support that. I'm pretty sure that there aren't any deities...but I can't be absolutely sure. Why? Well, what if there's an omnipotent, omniscient deity that's trying to trick you into thinking it doesn't exist? You couldn't really prove that thing isn't real, but there's no point in believing it exists either.

reply to post by mbartelsm


Um...so? Carl Sagan was a cool guy, but he was a bit too soft. He didn't like to use the proper terms because he put too much emphasis on stigma. He was a greater educator than most can ever dream of being, but he was also someone who was too soft of religious issues in my opinion.

Arguments from authority are always fallacious anyway.

this thread is unnecessary

some one can be agnostic and atheist at the same time.

in a sense we are all agnostic because no one knows if there is a god. you can have faith or you can believe, but you can't know.

then someone can be atheist, reject the belief in gods. this is a person that is convinced that the evidence is insufficient to prove a god.

the label "agnostic" is imo useless

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by mbartelsm

 

Um...so? Carl Sagan was a cool guy, but he was a bit too soft. He didn't like to use the proper terms because he put too much emphasis on stigma. He was a greater educator than most can ever dream of being, but he was also someone who was too soft of religious issues in my opinion.

Arguments from authority are always fallacious anyway.

Well, I have to agree with you there, he was a genius, but he had his faults. But I still use his quote as a guide for my beliefs, science isn't the enemy of religion, science is the mean to discover the truth and what science cannot explain, religion can. Until someone proves God doesn't exist (though almost impossible), I will be open to his existence.

reply to post by mbartelsm


It is not up to the skeptic to disprove the claim. Ideas which are asserted without evidence are tossed into the bin until someone provides something to back it up. All of the worlds religions should have definitive evidence if their claims were true.

Now, not all deity claims are equally unprovable. I can disprove the existence of a meter tall deity that lives in the corner of my room and is perfectly visible and tangible by just looking there and walking into the corner of my room to make sure my eyes aren't trick me. Of course, I can't disprove that there isn't an omnipotent, omniscient, flawless deity that is trying to hide from everything and everybody because it would be perfect at that. Yes, the rare triple negative in that sentence. Now, a reality in which that being exists is fundamentally indistinguishable from a reality in which that being does exist...so that doesn't really matter and in a sense it would be best for that deity if you don't believe in it anyway.

Still, this leaves us with one point...neither of us claim to be able to assert that no god or gods exist. Of course, I do not believe in any deity.

Do you believe in any of them?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by mbartelsm

 

It is not up to the skeptic to disprove the claim. Ideas which are asserted without evidence are tossed into the bin until someone provides something to back it up. All of the worlds religions should have definitive evidence if their claims were true.

If the claims where true, would they be called religions? or faith? thats the whole point, to have hope in something we are not sure about.

Now, not all deity claims are equally unprovable. I can disprove the existence of a meter tall deity that lives in the corner of my room and is perfectly visible and tangible by just looking there and walking into the corner of my room to make sure my eyes aren't trick me. Of course, I can't disprove that there isn't an omnipotent, omniscient, flawless deity that is trying to hide from everything and everybody because it would be perfect at that. Yes, the rare triple negative in that sentence. Now, a reality in which that being exists is fundamentally indistinguishable from a reality in which that being does exist...so that doesn't really matter and in a sense it would be best for that deity if you don't believe in it anyway.

Still, this leaves us with one point...neither of us claim to be able to assert that no god or gods exist. Of course, I do not believe in any deity.

Do you believe in any of them?

I don't know, that is the whole point, if there is such deity, its way beyond our understanding, and even if we all wanted to prove it exist, we would not be able, so I reject the idea that any religion actually tells the truth, because they can't know, so I've decided to live the best way I can as if there is no afterlife, but I still hope there is one.

reply to post by mbartelsm


You don't seem to be getting at where I'm coming from. Maybe I'm being unclear.

Now, I've had a lot of situations where I don't get a scientific concept but I'll reject it on initial intuition or simply because it hasn't been explained well.

If the idea of a deity is unknowable (which I disagree, though I do agree that there are deity claims that are unfalsifiable the vast majority of them would be within the realm of being positively proven) then it's a matter of whether or not you believe. It's not necessarily a choice. As of right now, I could not choose to believe in any deity. No matter how hard I tried. I simply do not believe with the set of evidence and arguments that I am privy to. I could change my mind if the appropriate evidence or arguments are presented.

But do you believe? Do you happen to have a belief in some deity? Not in your whole life, but at this moment. If you believe now, you are not an atheist, you just happen to be a theist (or deist).. You could fluctuate. You could fluctuate between belief and disbelief within the same day, even the same hour. I know I was in this position when I was struggling with the traditions I grew up with and that which I had held without question for so many years. I would lie in bed and feel terrified when I would think that I didn't believe in any deity...but then I would feel reassured that I started believing again. It's not always a straight transition...but within that transition you are not a certain thing, you are merely fluctuating between two positions...like a kid annoyingly flipping a light switch on and off.

I do not believe, do you?

Oh, and the afterlife thing is entirely separate from this discussion. Theism doesn't necessarily imply an afterlife and an afterlife doesn't necessarily imply a deity. Buddhism has an 'afterlife' of sorts. Some forms of Judaism don't really have an idea of an afterlife either (it's complicated).

reply to post by madnessinmysoul

As of right now, I could not choose to believe in any deity. No matter how hard I tried. I simply do not believe with the set of evidence and arguments that I am privy to. I could change my mind if the appropriate evidence or arguments are presented.

This was my exact position a couple of months ago, no matter how much I tried, it was impossible for me to believe.

But do you believe? Do you happen to have a belief in some deity? Not in your whole life, but at this moment. If you believe now, you are not an atheist, you just happen to be a theist (or deist).. You could fluctuate. You could fluctuate between belief and disbelief within the same day, even the same hour.

I think I do believe, not in any god that I have been presented to, but I do believe in A god.

I know I was in this position when I was struggling with the traditions I grew up with and that which I had held without question for so many years. I would lie in bed and feel terrified when I would think that I didn't believe in any deity...but then I would feel reassured that I started believing again. It's not always a straight transition...but within that transition you are not a certain thing, you are merely fluctuating between two positions...like a kid annoyingly flipping a light switch on and off.

Oh no! I'm way past that stage, I realized catholicism was wrong when I was like 12.

I still disagree with you about the whole idea of Agnosticism being a form of Atheism, but I have to thank you, because you have open my eyes, not in the way I think you expected, but you did.

Click here for more information.

Actually, as part of "being an athiest," I could not care less about labels one way or another. Want to call me agnostic? Fine. Pagan? If you want. Christian? Go ahead. Jewish? HELL N... kidding, kidding.

Just feel what you want and don't worry about the labels.

Note: I'm not saying it isn't an interesting thing to debate and discuss. People just seem to get way too worked up over it.

reply to post by mbartelsm


Well, you seem to be more of a...well, somewhere off in the deist/pantheist/etc corner. But I'm happy that we had a productive discourse. I want people to think, even if they don't end up agreeing with me. I don't mind if people disagree with me as long as they do so for thought out reasons. I mean, I disagree, but I feel no offense at people having thought out opinions. Now, thoughtless opinions annoy the crap out of me.