Homosexual Activity Among Animals Stirs Debate

Originally posted by Istvan
Simply, gays just cannot have kids, no matter how hard they try, they just have to become hetero to have kids.

As the old saw goes: "Homosexuality is not hereditary."

Certainly, nature seems to have a pretty consistent set of demands for all life:

1) Survive and

2) Reproduce.

However universal these "natural dicta" may be, compliance is decidedly not universal.

Not every creature capable of reproducing does reproduce, and many otherwise healthy creatures are unable to reproduce for any number of reasons.

In many species, notably mammals, most males don�t reproduce at all unless they successfully compete against other males for the �privilege� of ruling a harem -- a privilege that can be revoked at any time by a stronger male. This behavior is common in the superfamily of primates (Hominoidea), which includes humans.

While I don�t presume to know the �reasoning� of nature, nor do I presume to speak on its behalf, my observation is that although reproduction is a fundamental requirement for the continuation of life, nonselective and unrestricted reproduction is actually �designed out� (if you will) from the �system�. �Natural selection� is a term encompassing many things.

Without launching into a detailed exposition of such things as fertility, mating rituals, mutations, birth defects, diseases, etc. etc., perhaps we can accept as understood that there are a great many things that can stand in the way of the production of healthy offspring.

It can be argued -- with some support from observation -- that homosexuality can also be a barrier to reproduction, although it is not uncommon at all for �homosexuals� to produce children by entirely natural means. Indeed, the �gay man with a family� is a cultural stereotype.

But again, without straying too far afield, my response to your point is that it is not necessarily true that every animal is expected to reproduce, and that, in fact, were that to occur, life would probably cease to exist in short order.

Checks and balances exist in nature for a reason, although the precise nature of that reason may not be known to us. Nonetheless, to presume to second-guess nature is, if history is any guide, a dangerous business.

Let anyone who knows all, tell all.


[edit on 7/29/2004 by Majic]

Originally posted by WeBDeviL
HD: It is your opinion, but it is quite rude to put it as suffering. Just be polite to others "stances" i believe is what Zed is saying.


Anyways, thats an interesting development. Might prove that being gay is scientific and not a "life-style" or "choice"

I dont try to fluff up words to make them looks more appealing to the masses, IVE READ STRIAIGHT FROM A SUICIDE NOTE THAT A BEST FRIEND OF MINE WROTE, HE WAS "SUFFERING" WHILE HE WAS HERE BECAUSE HE FELT LIKE HE WAS "TRAPPED" AS IVE PUT IT, IN A MALE BODY. He killed himself because, as he explained, he didnt think he was born right, he thought that he was mixed up and always felt this way, at one pont in his young teens he relised that he liked boys, never told anyone, never acted opon it, but knew he didnt feel like a guy. He then got to the point where he couldnt handle it any more, but till that day he died he said he acted Male cause thats what he was born. I found this out after he killed himself by jumping off of moutain cliff...trying to free himself, trying to fly away free like a bird as he put it.

Then I read this new information about a possiblity of hormonal imbalances and such...well now you can see why Iam looking for a solution/reason/anything to at least my late friends problem... so I can understand a little better for myself the one thing that my best friend didnt talk to me about till I read his last letter. I quess my veiw of this is a little differnet than most.

[edit on 7/29/04 by HumptyDumpty]

Originally posted by ZeddicusZulZorander
My whole point is why not just forget the labels and forget trying to solve their "problem or disorder" for them?

I know at least 4 gay people (and I don't know a whole lot more) who would do about everything to become straight.
It's a huge problem for them.

Telling them to stop being ashamed/be proud/live with it, is like telling someone who stutters to stop being ashamed/be proud/live with it.
Of course a lot of gay people -after realizing they can't change how they are born- decide to no longer see their "disorder" as a problem.
Some even become proud of their disorder.
This is not wrong, and probably one of the easyer ways to learn how to live with being gay.

I have a couple of lesbian cats. They cannot decide which one gets on top.

Originally posted by Jakko
Telling them to stop being ashamed/be proud/live with it, is like telling someone who stutters to stop being ashamed/be proud/live with it.

Telling someone there's something wrong with them is like telling them they should change.

That's the whole problem with labeling homosexuality as a disorder. Plus it's a label that is, and can be used as an incentive for gay-bashing - hence the label becomes the problem.

[edit on 30-7-2004 by Durden]

The only problem I had with my gayness so to speak was what other people would make about it, that is until I accepted you can't please all the people all the time and decided to stop worrying about it, accepting my sexuality wasn't the problem it didn't feel wrong, dirty, sick it just felt great for me. You can litter this thread with hundreds of examples of gay people who don't feel right, deppressed, suicidal etc and by implication make oblique points about abberations/disorders, I'm sorry it proves nothing other than how similar straight/gay people are in that there are a lot of screwed up people. I'm just waiting for some pedant to speak up with his cast iron dictionary defination and how words like disorder, perversion etc are all perfectly acceptable words to use in this context but we all know the reasoning and the intention behind such words.

Just to get this stupid notion out of the way. I do NOT want to be a woman, I like being a bloke. People who feel that way are transgendered and guess what they can be straight ie, a lesbian tapped in a mans body.

OK!

I think that all forms of being attracted to anything else but the opposite gender are in a way disorders. This is not in any way ment to be an excuse to bash gay people. Just like we don't go around bashing people who stutter because they are born with this unusual speech reflex.

uber, of course in the end all that someone like you can do, is accept reality. It's great that you've found a way to no longer care what everyone thinks, and live your life the way you want. Not everyone is able to be like that, and gay people who are not, often become suicidal/depressed.

This discussion reaches way further than only gay people, for what about people who are unlucky enough to be born pedophile/necrophile?
It's not someones fault he's attracted to small children, it's just a disorder in their brains. If they give in to their desire, they will (unlike straight and gay people) damage people around them, so it's only logical to prevent these people from ever having sex. This does not change the fact that it's not their fault they are born like that, and that denying them to ever have sex, is -even in our eyes the only option- from a totally objective point of view pretty harsh.

If just everything woul be right with being a gay, people would not need to be talking about it. But in fact, there is two ways of having sex. �Hetero (normal) sex, �Other (not normal) sex. So if being a gay is categorized the same way as pedophilia or killer sex, then it is understood, why ppl don't like gays.

I dont try to fluff up words to make them looks more appealing to the masses, IVE READ STRIAIGHT FROM A SUICIDE NOTE THAT A BEST FRIEND OF MINE WROTE, HE WAS "SUFFERING" WHILE HE WAS HERE BECAUSE HE FELT LIKE HE WAS "TRAPPED" AS IVE PUT IT, IN A MALE BODY. He killed himself because, as he explained, he didnt think he was born right, he thought that he was mixed up and always felt this way, at one pont in his young teens he relised that he liked boys, never told anyone, never acted opon it, but knew he didnt feel like a guy. He then got to the point where he couldnt handle it any more, but till that day he died he said he acted Male cause thats what he was born. I found this out after he killed himself by jumping off of moutain cliff...trying to free himself, trying to fly away free like a bird as he put it.

Then I read this new information about a possiblity of hormonal imbalances and such...well now you can see why Iam looking for a solution/reason/anything to at least my late friends problem... so I can understand a little better for myself the one thing that my best friend didnt talk to me about till I read his last letter. I quess my veiw of this is a little differnet than most.

[edit on 7/29/04 by HumptyDumpty]

That's a really sad situation, and I offer my condolences for the loss of your friend.

If he felt he should have been born female, and liked guys, and killed himself because of an inability to cope with it, I really wish he had contacted suicide counselors. They could have put him in touch with people who can offer a different perspective on things to help him deal with the situation.

It sounds like he was suffering from gender dysphoria.

"A person with gender dysphoria experiences anxiety, uncertainty or persistently uncomfortable feelings about their birth gender.

They feel that they have a gender identity that is different from their anatomical sex.This may lead to a fear of expressing their feelings and a fear of rejection, which may lead to deep anxiety, leading to chronic depression and possibly attempted suicide."
www.nhsdirect.nhs.uk...

Millions of people around the world are afflicted with this and it can lead to immense stress and depression. He could have recieved counseling and education about his situation. Our culture puts such massive stress on the proper roles for men and women that those who suffer gender dysphoria in the US may never hear about it.

Anyway, I'm sorry about your friend.

Thank you for the respects.

I agree it would have been benificial for him to see someone about his feelings, sadly he didnt tell anyone till he left.

Can we just cut this debate to the quick and ask Istvan what, if he had any say, we should actually do with gay people, how they should be dealt with.

There is no need to "deal" with gay people. If they have any problem in life, they have to solve, not us...

Originally posted by Istvan
There is no need to "deal" with gay people. If they have any problem in life, they have to solve, not us...

OK great someone, phone security and have Istavan escorted back to the asylum please.

There problem solved!

I got up in the middle of the night once too go P, and on the way to the loo I heard this funny hand-farty like sound, so I followed the source into the lounge....and......my flatmates miniture dachsund(M) was giving their ginger cat(M) a right royal rogering up Ginghas chocolate starfish..
Not just homosexual, but an interspecies Marde Gra. Of course I was not believed...UFO's sure, Ghosts you bet, The Yeti hell who hasn't seen it?, but the dog giving the cat one? you've got to be out of your freaking mind. But they soon changed their tune when one day when the flatmate was shooting the s%*t with the neighbour over the fence and the neighbour burst out laughing..pointed...the flatmate turns around, and theres Gingha performing Oral sex on the dog.

[edit on 2-8-2004 by Zero Point]

I dont think we should be looking at animal sex for guidelines regarding human sexuality. Many animals in the animal kingdom...especially those bonobo monkeys participate heavily in sex with their young. They do it because they find it pleasurable sexually. So if we are looking for insight into what is acceptable in terms of sex from the animal kingdom...then sex with minors is a go. Just because it may be sexually gratifying doesent mean it should be done. What separates us from other animals is our ability to assign morals to situations which I think is a good thing.

I think the whole gay animal concept is brought up not to justify the "morality" of homosexuality but to debunk the claims that homosexuality is "unnatural" and therefore against the will of god.

I think the whole gay animal concept is brought up not to justify the "morality" of homosexuality but to debunk the claims that homosexuality is "unnatural" and therefore against the will of god.

Getting back to the original post...just because one male animal "humps" another male animal, does NOT necessarily mean either of the male animals is "gay". My male Doberman Pinscher "humps" any other dog that comes his way. He has no testicles, and hasn't for years, so he has no male hormones. He also has no erection. This is no "sex" that he is having, it is purely an act of domination. When a small dog, male or female, humps someone's leg, they are not doing anything sexual.

Dogs have erections just like humans (and presumably most other primates), and they have an erection when they are having sex. If these supposed homosexual acts by these animals do not involve any sexual stimulation resulting in an erection, I fail to see any correlation between animals humping other animals or my leg and human males having oral or anal sex.

Anything else is just seeing what you want to see and drawing some contrived conclusion. The original post never mentioned whether those male orangutans actually completed their "homosexual sex act" to the point of an ejaculation or just flopped around on each other like my dog does with no sexual intent whatsoever. Rather than ignoring this "evidence" out of fear of ridicule, perhaps it was ignored because it was not true. Now that people want to say that homosexuality is something that exists in all nature, they see these acts by animals and draw, what I consider, a false conclusion that it is actually homosexual sex they are doing.

Saying that certain species are involved in homosexual activities until they mature just means they don't know what to do with those hormones when they come bursting on the scene. Once they mature, they figure it out and go find themselve a wife/girlfriend.

I think these "new" findings are just old obvious facts being run through the mill again with an added twist to the truth in an attempt to rebuff people who say that only humans are homosexual.

Edit





[edit on 8-1-2004 by Jenkins]

I dont think we should be looking at animal sex for guidelines regarding human sexuality. Many animals in the animal kingdom...especially those bonobo monkeys participate heavily in sex with their young.

But we are part of the animal kingdom. One of the greatest driving forces behind our species is the attainment of pleasure....just like the Bonobo. Heres one for the God freaks though. If there was indeed a dude called God who made everything, then surely this dude God created Homosexuality as well.
If my understanding of the big book of fairy tales is correct, I remember something about this dude God giving people free will. So not even your God plays God with peoples lives. So should you be? But then again, maybe when your not condemning people for their life-style choices you to can be found cruising.....
How say you savage?


[edit on 2-8-2004 by Zero Point]

[edit on 2-8-2004 by Zero Point]