"Emergency Manager" Replaces Elected Officials in Michigan

You don't live here you don't get it. They live without worrying about paying the bills things have shut down it's a ghost town but those that remain demand the best. Unemployment is about 60% so they get what they want because they are poor. No concept of taking care of business. People who do business with BH get money up front and were talking CASH.

reply to post by Skerrako


SO instead of answering my question, your going to obfuscate... whatever works for you.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


How about the nfact thist power is nothing new. How about the former Mayor of Detroit almot being removed by Gov. Granholm for the jmess he created. How about the fact benton Harbor has been a mees for years. How about the state of Michigan having its money tenticles in just about every county and city in the state because of the way educational, as well as non educational, funding is done in Michigan.

To the people who use the trm Martial Law, would you look the term up and understand it please before using it? The use of that term in this case is about as naive as the use of coup.

For those who want more background, check state as well as federal case law in terms of entities who could not manage their finances who had a state or federal court ordered takeover.

But by all means, instead of looking at the facts andunderstanding history, people want to push martial law / coup fearmongering talk...

Maybe if people spent a little more time understandning their State Constitution, items like the OP wouldnt be such a complete shock and surprise.

but hey... why argue based on knowledge, when the fearmongering works just the same.

The truth is important.. if for no other reason that it would correctly place the title of this thread as Emergency Manager appointed, while leaving out the replaces elected officals.

The elected officals are still there, making that part of the title a lie.

reply to post by Xcathdra

But by all means, instead of looking at the facts andunderstanding history, people want to push martial law / coup fearmongering talk...

Oh I understand history all right, and I know a place were this happened in the late 1930's

I like how you direct us to "state laws" which I'm sure do say this type of thing is legal! But once upon a time in Germany is was perfectly legal to turn in anyone you THOUGHT was a Jew. Same type of thing during the Reign of Terror period of the French revolution. Legal is like a belt that gets tightened more and more.

I will ask you again: If President Obama said "congress has not gotten it's house in order" and appoints a new committee to handle all legislative duties would you support that? I don't understand how you could answer any differently. How bad a shape the town is in is irrelevant, which is why I did not respond to any of those responses.

EITHER YOU HAVE A DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED GOVERNMENT OR YOU DON'T.

Being inbetween would be like saying you are a little bit pregnant.

You would make a great PTB spokesman though. Im sure you think there are WMDs in Iraq, Bin Laden has is still hiding in a cave and the 08 financial crisis couldn't of been avoided right?

I would expect someone like you that has been on ATS for a while to have a little bit more of a mature worldview, but I also know when something hits close to home like this it tends to blind many. I don't need to prove any of this to you though, in the coming months it will become apparent to you, and I will direct you back to this thread.

We can agree to disagree for now.

Originally posted by Xcathdra
To the people who use the trm Martial Law, would you look the term up and understand it please before using it? The use of that term in this case is about as naive as the use of coup.

Actually using the term Financial Martial Law is pretty accurate. snyder is illegally installing viceroys that have zero oversight and have ultimate authority over their newly invaded and conquered territories.

For those who want more background, check state as well as federal case law in terms of entities who could not manage their finances who had a state or federal court ordered takeover.

Sorry but not like this. It goes far beyond smple financial management and overview.

But by all means, instead of looking at the facts andunderstanding history, people want to push martial law / coup fearmongering talk...

Sorry we're going to continue throwing reality around whether you choose to accept it or not.

Maybe if people spent a little more time understandning their State Constitution, items like the OP wouldnt be such a complete shock and surprise.

Such as yourself?
You see we understand how our state is supposed to work and we're using it's laws to remove snyder because he has failed in his job. His job is to fulfill the will of the people and govern in the best interests of the people. He's not doing that but instead only trying to fulfill his promises to his corporate masters.

All the while people ignore the fact that managers, including City Managers, are not elected by the people. They are appointed by City Council, Court Order, or in this case the Govenor of Michigan.

I find it intresting though the the momet a Republican does this, its MArtial Law and a Coup, while Govnor Granholms actions go ignored. I also find it intresting that the issue with Benton Harbor is being treated as new, especailly in light of the fact Gov. Granholm already assigned a Finance Manager to Benton Harbo....

In April of 2010.......

Gov. Granholms appoints Finance Manager to Benton Harbor.

Gov. Granholm appoints Manager to oversee Detroit Schools

Gov. Granholm appoints Finance team to review the City Ecourse's finances

LANSING — Gov. Jennifer Granholm announced this morning she has appointed a financial review team to scour the finance records of the troubled city of Ecorse, one of Detroit’s Downriver suburbs. The step could lead to the appointment of a financial manager for the city, in short a state take over of the city’s finances and operations.

Finance Manager appointed - Highland Park - Lawsuit

Gov. Granholm assigns Finance review team for the City of River Rouge

Gov. Granholms appoints Finance Manager for the City of Pontiac

and there are more where these come from...

So again, can we stop with the fear mongering and the blowing this out of proportion in addition to stopping the obvious partisan BS?

Originally posted by Xcathdra

I find it intresting though the the momet a Republican does this, its MArtial Law and a Coup, while Govnor Granholms actions go ignored.

Obviously you don't live in michigan or you'd know you statement is simply FALSE.

I also find it intresting that the issue with Benton Harbor is being treated as new, especailly in light of the fact Gov. Granholm already assigned a Finance Manager to Benton Harbo....

There is a difference between a general finance manager and what snyder is doing. Again, if you knew anything about snyder's agenda, you wouldn't be making these silly statements.

So again, can we stop with the fear mongering and the blowing this out of proportion in addition to stopping the obvious partisan BS?

This is not fear mongering, this is about the theft of local governments rights to govern as afforded them by both the state and federal CONSTITUTION.
Make no mistake, snyder's politics are both illegal and dangerous to our state.
My suggestion is that until you've actually lived in michigan and are familiar with snyder's track record, you should refrain from making uneducated statements.

reply to post by Xcathdra

So again, can we stop with the fear mongering and the blowing this out of proportion in addition to stopping the obvious partisan BS?

Number one, I didn't know if they were black, white, democrat or republican so no partisanship there. I also am a registered Libertarian as well.

Number two: Let's try to get this through your head one more time

On Saturday, news broke that Harris had issued an order on Thursday stating that the elected leadership of the city may no longer hold votes on any matter, other than to start a meeting, adjourn a meeting, and approve a meeting's minutes. Issuing such an order is allowed under Michigan's recently updated emergency financial manager law, and this is the first time an EM has actually used that authority. Harris could also suspend the city commission altogether, but he told us previously that he wasn't planning to take that step.

LINK

An emergency manager that can dissolve both ELECTED official's positions and anyone they have appointed

The President of Michigan AFL-CIO clarifies that as well:

Mark Gaffney, president of the Michigan AFL-CIO. "With the stripping of all power of duly elected officials in Benton Harbor … we can now see the true nature of the emergency manager system."

LINK
Fear-mongering? I think you may be the one who is scared because it seems like you honestly cannot come to grips with the gravity of this situation. Take a look at our country and honestly think "Is this really about a mismanaged budget and some number crunching, or is it possible this is the start of something never seen in this country before?" Just as the guise in Iraq was to "save the citizens from an evil dictator" this financial take over looks like a sheep but will undoubtedly turn into a lion.

Can you honestly not see that? I really feel awful that you (like many others) won't see this until it's too late. Believe what you will for now, and give the government the benefit of the doubt if you would like, but I have seen far too much to want to do that as well

Heres the endgame:

First take over the city because of a “crisis”. Break the contracts. Bring in outside for-profit organizations to run charter schools. Then call yourself an “innovator”.

LINK

The only thing to fear is fear itself Xcathdra

edit on 17-4-2011 by Skerrako because: (no reason given)

reply to post by jfj123


I have lived in Michigan, and I do know what I am talking about. Gov Granholm has appointed Finance Managers, and now the current Govenor is doing the same.

There is NO difference between what Granholm did and what the current Govenor is doing. They are usiung the exact same authority in the exact same manner.

Again, the attempt to make the decision by the current Govenor into something its not speaks volumes.

reply to post by Skerrako


Your own information supports my argument. Invoking the AFL-CIO is also clear, being they have no issues calling out the REpublican Govenor, who has issues with some organized labor perks (likie Wisonsin), while at the same time remaning silent when Gov. Granholm did the exact same thing, to the EXACT same city - Benton Harbor.

The law was in place prior to the current Govenor taking office.

The use of the words dissolved, again, is incorrect. The city council is still there as the representatives of the people of the city. If the city counciul does not agree with the law, or better yet the citizens of the State of Michigan dont like the law, then might I suggest they get up off their asses and have it repealed. The portion of the law you are referring to is still being discussed in the legislature, and to date has not passed.

Absent any action on that note, this is nothing but a political argument where people are going out of their ways to attribute actions to the REpublican Goovenor while attempting to change the story for the last Democratic Govenor.

Why did Gov. Granholm take her action against Benton Harbor?

Source

Years of financial mismanagement and the fact that the city needed emergency assistance to make payroll last week convinced the governor to appoint an emergency manager to take over control of the finances of Benton Harbor, the Herald-Palladium reports.

Granholm’s move comes despite an appeal by the Benton Harbor City Commission which hoped to develop a financial recovery plan without state intervention. A financial manager is expected to be in place by mid April.

According to the Herald-Palladium Benton Harbor commissioners have many explanations for the city’s poor financial situation.


The deindustrialization of America, greedy nonprofit groups, negative coverage by The Herald-Palladium and ousted former City Manager Richard Marsh Jr. — who invited in the fiscal review team that found the city’s money management incompetent — were all blamed for the city’s financial problems. But decades of corrosive poverty and sky-high unemployment were blamed the most for diminishing tax revenue.

In a letter to Benton Harbor Mayor Wilce Cook Granholm outlined the reasons for her decision as:


– A 13.1 percent increase in the city’s general fund deficit for the 2008-2009 fiscal year.

– Eight years of tardy audit reports to the state Department of Treasury.

– A steep decline in the city’s money on hand from $1.7 million in 2006 to $315,000 last year.

– An inability to make minimum contributions to city worker pension funds.

– Annual bank overdraft charges of $80,000 to $100,000.

If the update law passes the elgislature and is signed, then you will have my support to repeal it, and remove any member who voted for it. Until that time, the singleing out of one governor's action, while ignoring the many of the preceding governor who used it extensively, smacks of politics, and gthe attempt to downplay Granholms actions verse the current Govenor is further proof of that.

I live in hastings small town not herting at all lots of jobs but rick snyder was here yesterday at the movie theater hope its not to take over my town,

Its been brought to my attention that my argument is confusing so I want to clarify.

I dont agree with the Finance Managers or the law that allows it. I dont agree with the legislature trying to make it allowable to remove city council / elected officals.

What I take exception to is the fact its been on the books for a few Govenors.
I take exception to the fact not one person objected when Granholm was doing these things.
I take exception to the fact that its now an issue and the Govenor happens to be Republican.

You are either opposed to the law in its entirety, from inception to revocation, or you arent.

You dont get it both ways.

Originally posted by Xcathdra
reply to post by jfj123

 

I have lived in Michigan, and I do know what I am talking about. Gov Granholm has appointed Finance Managers, and now the current Govenor is doing the same.

It's not the same and you're assuming I'm a democrat which I'm not.
These are not financial managers. They are dissolving local government and putting viceroys in charge with no oversite.

The most scary part about this is that the governer does not have the power to do this.
If I were in local government, I would refuse to comply and I hope that's what they decide to do.

There is NO difference between what Granholm did and what the current Govenor is doing. They are usiung the exact same authority in the exact same manner.

No they're not and in addition, I did not support granholm either. She over reached her power as well during her terms in office. Again, you're assuming I liked her which I didn't.

Again, the attempt to make the decision by the current Govenor into something its not speaks volumes.

That he is massively incompetent ? Yes I know !
The reality is that snyder should never have been elected.
-He's trying to reduce corporate taxes while increasing everyone elses.
-He's cutting education. I've seen this up close and personal. They have to shut schools down in one of the richest counties in the US (Oakland County).
-he wants to cut $470 per pupil funding.
-union busting.
-attacking the pensions of the elderly.
-his one political party won't back him on many issues. Why is that?
-In Benton Harbor, local government can't do anything unless the EFM signs off on it first. ANYTHING !
-Removed the law requiring all merchandise be tagged with a price. The majority of michigan residents wanted to keep the law. He wasn't concerned about that of course. He was only concerned about increasing companies profit margins.
-he wants to get rid of movie tax credits.
I can go on and on.

Now here's the thing. WE THE PEOPLE hire the governor to work in our best interest AND his job is to fulfill the will of the people within the confines of the state and federal CONSTITUTION. He is not doing this.
That's why WE THE PEOPLE are intent on FIRING him.

This is not fear mongering, this is fact.

Originally posted by Xcathdra
What I take exception to is the fact its been on the books for a few Govenors.
I take exception to the fact not one person objected when Granholm was doing these things.
I take exception to the fact that its now an issue and the Govenor happens to be Republican.

This is not true.
Many michiganders have had a problem with the last governor including myself.
Keep in mind that snyders version of a EMF is much more draconian that granholms.
But I don't and have never supported allowing the violation to our state and federal CONSTITUTION even a little bit.

I don't support the TSA screenings whether you consider they were initiated by bush or continued by obama. Both are wrong and obama shouldn't be re-elected for that reason alone. You can't violate the CONSTITUTION a little bit. It's like being a little bit pregnant.

On top of everything else, we in Michigan have not had a quality crop of gubenatorial candidates in quite some time. The previous election included granholm and a guy who runs a pyramid scheme.....REALLY?!?!? that's the best we have? Are you kidding me? I saw a monkey at the detroit zoo that could run the state better than those to clowns !

reply to post by Xcathdra


It's clear your not going to understand the implications of this, I guess you're with the sheeple on this one.

There is also a law saying in times of an emergency the president can control the country through 10 regional FEMA governors. Are protesting this now? Will you when it is implemented? Or will you say: well I guess it's legal so it's ok

I've been less frustrated trying to wake up normal people.

I have shown you irrefutable evidence that elected officials have been stripped of there power and duties and you respond: "They're just blaming a Republican governor" and "It's ok because the town is very mismanaged"

Both of those excuses have absolutely no bearing on the fact that a person who was not elected or appointed by an electee and does not ever have to worry about voters or re-election has taken control.

You can't troll, hack or resort to partisanship around that very simple fact.

I win.

reply to post by Xcathdra


Grandhole appointed Harris in Benton Harbor too. He's been here about over a year he is supposed to work with them they refused he took over. Their own fault for acting like nothings wrong and further acting like little kids

reply to post by jfj123


Ummm Snydar didn't appoint the guy Grandhole

reply to post by jfj123


The law that the current Govenor is using is the same law Granholm used. They both appointed finance managers. The only difference is if the current legislature passes the modifications, then the finance managers can remove city council members among other things.

I fail to see where you think the laws are different - they arent.

reply to post by Skerrako


Oh please... I understand exactly what people are talking about.. I used to kive in michigan and saw Granholm do this as well.

As far as your FEMA comment goes, please do some more homework.

A Govenor MUST declare a disaster and then request the President declare a federal disaster. The state must then request FEMA assistance, and even then FEMA is subservient to SEMA (State Emergency Management).

The notion of FEMA camps with the suiggestion by others that they are internment / concentration camps is crap. The use of military bases / facilities during times of mass disastere make sense since they have the ability to continue running when water and power systems fail. They are also reinforced where as civilian facilities generally are not.

In this case, The Govenor of Michigan has the abilkty, and has for a while now, the ability to appoint Finance Managers to Cities as well as school boards (Detroit). The law is the same for Synder as it was for Granholm. Granholm appointed a finance manager to Benton Harbor, as did Synder.

The argument people are making that there is a difference between the 2 Govenors actions is funny. They both did the same thing. The actions the finance manager took under the new Govenor had that same ability when Granholm was Govenor.

reply to post by Xcathdra


First: I know you're not reading carefully because I never mentioned FEMA camps. Continuing on

As far as your FEMA comment goes, please do some more homework.

www.fema.gov...

FEMA Region I (1) – Gov. James H. Douglas of Vermont, a Republican who is chairman of the National Governors Association. He established his state's Homeland Security Advisory Council to review its security policies

FEMA Region II (2) – Gov. Luis Fortuna of Puerto Rico, a Republican who is on the National Governors Association Economic Development and Commerce Committee

FEMA Region III (3) – Gov. Robert McDonnell of Virginia, a Republican elected last year. He is on the governors' Health and Human Services committee

FEMA Region IV (4) – Gov. Beverly Eaves Perdue of North Carolina, a Democrat who is a lead governor for the National Guard. She's on the governors' Economic Development and Commerce committee as well as the committee on Homeland Security and Public Safety

FEMA Region VI (6) – Gov. Brad Henry of Oklahoma, a Democrat on the Education, Early Childhood and Workforce committee for the governors association

FEMA Region VII (7) – Gov. Jeremiah Nixon of Missouri, a Democrat on the governors' Health and Human Services Committee who operates his state's fusion center, the Missouri Information Analysis Center

FEMA Region VIII (8) – Gov. Michael Rounds of South Dakota, a Republican who previously headed the Western Governors Association

FEMA Region IX (9) – Gov. Janice Brewer of Arizona, a Republican who took office when Napolitano was named Homeland Security secretary. She served on the governor's Military Task Force dealing with base closures

FEMA Region X (10) – Gov. Chris Gregoire of Washington, a Democrat who is on the National Governors Association executive committee as well as its special committee on Homeland Security

And what happened to FEMA Region V (5)? Instead of selecting a governor from his home region, Obama selected Gov. Martin O'Malley of Maryland, a Democrat who serves on the governors' committee on Education, Early Childhood and Workforce as well as its committee on Homeland Security. Maryland borders the presidential command posts of Washington D.C. and Langley VA/CIA HQ

Presidential emergency powers

the president “may seize property, organize and control the means of production, seize commodities, assign military forces abroad, institute martial law, seize and control all transportation and communication, regulate the operation of private enterprise, restrict travel, and, in a variety of ways, control the lives of United States citizens.”

SOURCE

Let's see if you can put two and two together.........

I bet you see this emergency act as "a nice way the government will help us if something bad happens" right?

Must be nice to still live in a dream Xcathdra