What would a conclusive disproof of the existence of God do to your moral stature?

Originally posted by bogomil

Originally posted by Wonders
reply to post by bogomil

 

You assume that I would kill you in order to prove that I am right, well, that is untrue. Your beliefs are your responsability, not mine.

I hope, you noticed I wrote: "....a very common outcome......etc", not an unavoidable outcome.

It would be hard to deny, that the major part of mankind's conflicts originate from ideological hotheads using violence, justifying the violence on ideological grounds.

There are e.g. still individuals who ascribe to OT standards or the 'supremacy' of hard-core communism or nazism/fascism.

I can not have any opinion on YOUR position on the extent or aim of invasive methods, so I don't assume anything concerning you.

I can only refer to 'doctrines' implied in various ideologies, and some of the christianities contain quite a deal of violence options. Some don't. It all depends on interpretation of your existential manual, and how to apply the various outcoming 'answers'.

In your initial post here you presented an absolute and a judgemental attitude towards 'christians' not using your standards.

My position is to deny any ultimate absolutes as valid for everybody. I present the view, that such 'absolutes' are personal and subjective and for good or bad society must be inclusive, but not so permissive that individuals actually have the option of enforcing their absolutes.

My opposition to you here is academic, I'm not suggesting, that your egalitarian rights should be cancelled.

On the point of 'moral' this means that utilitarian philosophy is the only functional moral norm in society as a whole. Not the specific varieties of sharia, christian morality or whatever other minority version presented.

So, now this is about violence huh? There are plenty of instances in history and in these days where violence is justified. Violence will thrive even if Christianity is wiped off the face of the earth. Like it or not, you will not change my beliefs. You say that your position is to deny any ultimate absolutes as valid for everybody, but...you just couldn't allow me to have an absolute of my own, I am not everybody but I do have my standards. So, by stating my belief that I know FOR A FACT that God is real, why jump on my back? You certainly have never experienced the things I have and I'm sure that if you had you wouln't be here opposing my views, just because I claim to know FOR A FACT that God is real, that certainly doesn't mean that I am FORCING you to believe anything. The common trend that I see these days is, "You can live any way you'd like, exept for the Christian way." I like how you went on to defend those 'Christians' who do not take Jesus' words seriously, I'll have you know that Jesus offended many people because he spoke the truth and they didn't like it, plenty wanted to kill him. God would never force people to obey him, he doesn't even force people to believe in him, but that doesn't change the fact that he is alive and knows you more personally than anyone else in the whole wide world.

Originally posted by AnteBellum
reply to post by Darkmask

 

I have to say I follow the way you stated also. But what happens if you die and suddenly are confronted with God, from some random religion, and you realize life on Earth was just the beginning?

edit on 4/4/2011 by AnteBellum because: (no reason given)

I have asked myself the same question before I decided that agnosticism was the way for me. Over and over I could not get the picture out of my head of dying, and having to answer to a higher source, one that I had decided in life to not ignore, but be on the fence about.

Until you can decide to take responsibility for yourself, worrying about your confrontation can consume your life. I decided that if I passed on, and was confronted by "god", I would say simply this. "I cannot and will not take the blame or consequence of those that were allowed and chosen to speak on your behalf". There was no intervention in order for me to have a concrete understanding, and I will not accept it is such.

Now at this time in my life, I fully understand and take responsibility for this decision. If others would see that there is a consequence for both believing and not believing, people would look into religion more seriously.

Peace, NRE.

reply to post by Wonders


You wrote:

["You certainly have never experienced the things I have and I'm sure that if you had you wouln't be here opposing my views, just because I claim to know FOR A FACT that God is real, that certainly doesn't mean that I am FORCING you to believe anything."]


Personal experiences are subjective and private, until they are made part of a public debate. Then they will be met with approval, criticism or disinterest.

Such a public reaction isn't 'forcing' anyone to anything, as there fortunately are no 'sanctions' implied outside a purely verbal level, where the language on occasion can get heated, but not more.

I hope, you're not suggesting, that debate forums should be reduced to pulpits or message-boards, where individuals come to preach with the certainty, that opposition is frowned on or even forbidden. There are special sites for the various kinds of ideological extremism, where unopposed preaching is expected, so maybe you would feel more at home at such a site, if you would want to avoid opposition.

So as to you 'forcing' me at an individual level, I have no worries. My concerns are about what happens, when an ideology goes from being an academic point to trying to make an extra-parliamentary impact on society.

My own little hobby-horse 'epistemology' ("how do we know, what we know?"...What are 'facts'?) is a quite extensive subject, so I wouldn't expect you to spend much time on it, if you haven't got a special interest, but at least you would surely benefit from using 5-10 minutes to take a look at what the word 'FACT' means semantically and when applied practically.

You know, some people 'know' for a FACT that the commies were right all along, or that the flying spaghetti monster exists.

Quote: ["The common trend that I see these days is, "You can live any way you'd like, exept for the Christian way."]

The common trend that I see happening the last app. 2000 years is for christians to say: "It's OUR way or nothing". Which either indicates ignorance of socio-political-economic models and their consequences or a very selective blindness.

Quote: ["God would never force people to obey him, he doesn't even force people to believe in him,"]

There's the schizoid sociopath from OT (known as Jahveh) and the whole elaborate set-up with an invented 'original sin'. No matter how many 'covenants' are postulated, the purpose of the Jesus from pauline christianity depends on OT, where a great deal of force is not only implied, but actually commanded by this 'god' of yours. Take away OT and the message of pauline NT will be meaningless.

There will never be conclusive disproof so it is pointless to even try and speculate. There will, however, be proof of his existance, and on THAT day, MANY will be shaken to the core, and they will fall into utter despair. What other religion stipulates that their diety is THE ONLY diety and there is but ONE WAY?



James 2:19 ESV / 10 helpful votes

You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!

1 Timothy 2:5

For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

Isaiah 43:11

I, I am the Lord, and besides me there is no savior.

Isaiah 43:10

“You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.

Revelation 1:8

“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Colossians 1:16

For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.

Ephesians 4:5

One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Isaiah 42:8

I am the Lord; that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols.

John 1:3

All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Isaiah 41:4

Who has performed and done this, calling the generations from the beginning? I, the Lord, the first, and with the last; I am he.

Colossians 1:15-18

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.

Psalm 83:18

That they may know that you alone, whose name is the Lord, are the Most High over all the earth.

reply to post by graphuto


You wrote:

["There will never be conclusive disproof so it is pointless to even try and speculate."]

Isn't it a speculation to say, that there will never be conclusive disproof?

Personally I don't mind speculations though, as long as they are CALLED speculations.

Quote: ["There will, however, be proof of his existance, and on THAT day, MANY will be shaken to the core,..."]

But apparantly the christianities can continue speculating. Probably by divine dispensation on the grounds of: "It's true, because it's true"..With the above outcome, which is not only a speculation, but also a postulate.

Only christian opposition has to stop speculations. But don't worry; a major part of the criticism of the christianities is not speculation, but based on logic, science and rational reasoning, which you ofcourse can ignore as being irrelevant to holy fantasies (such as the existence of the flying spaghetti monster).

Quote continued: ["....and they will fall into utter despair."]

Neither believing in circle-arguments or prophecies from holy manuals and similar, I'm not worried, and I will continue to live according to the increasingly sane moral rules of egalitarian, secular, liberal democracy.

Quote: [" What other religion stipulates that their diety is THE ONLY diety and there is but ONE WAY?"]

Try islam. But in any case such elitist dreams of 'truth'-monopoly only strengthen the impression of extremism with delusions of grandeur. And in a context of elitism, sociopathy is bound to grow, which would be a moral decline.