A Question For The Liberals Here

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776
To me those are just entitlement programs like SS, medicaid, et al. All subsidies, bailouts, entitlements and any other non-Constitutional spending needs to be ended.

You may want to re-think Social Security. That takes in more than it pays out, though in recent years the gov has been paying it out to themselves. For that reason a shortfall may be in the works.

I realize it grates against the conservative grain that people who paid into it expect to be paid back but that is how it was designed. Relax though, most people will never see a return in value for SS that they paid for it. That should soothe the sting a bit, eh?

reply to post by sonofliberty1776

To me those are just entitlement programs like SS, medicaid, et al. All subsidies, bailouts, entitlements and any other non-Constitutional spending needs to be ended.

Why is this the mindset of conservatives?

Do you go into a store, pay for things, and then leave them in the store because you believe it's wrong to take something you paid for?

I just don't understand.

Each and every week I pay into both SS and Medicare. Someday when I retire, I would like to think that because I paid into both of these programs, that I will be able to have a return on my investment.

But no, Conservatives want to make people think it won't be there. They do this without any backup links to prove that it won't.

But what they don't understand is, each and every year, I request from the Social Security Administration my statement. Which shows me exactly what I have paid in, and what I will get when I retire as of this point.

So, again, why is it wrong to want something that I have paid for? To me, it's not an entitlement if you paid for it.

I ran across an article yesterday, and well, I am looking for it....
but, the pentagon is actually considering not paying the troops if the gov't shuts down according to it.......
they have started a new war, spending millions a day on it, with this shutdown looming overhead, and well.....
they have the nerve not to pay the people who they have entrusted with our guns, bombs, and nukes???
wonder if the conservatives here have the nerve to knock the servicemen and women for wanting their paycheck???

Social Security currently has a $2.6 trillion surplus which has been building up since the 1983 amendments and is intended to help absorb the retirement of the baby boomers. This surplus is invested in US Treasury securities that are backed by the full faith and credit of the US government. According to the Social Security Trustees 2010 report, Social Security can pay full benefits until 2037, at which time, if nothing were done to strengthen its financing, Social Security would still be able to pay about 78 percent of benefits. This quarter of a century means there is time to strengthen its financing without cutting benefits for future beneficiaries. The American people will insist that Congress do what is needed for the program to pay full benefits and protect these benefits they were promised and have earned.

www.huffingtonpost.com...

and more:

Opponents of Social Security have been working for many years to tell a much different story about Social Security in order to influence how the media and Washington decision makers view it. One example of this is Wall Street insider Pete Peterson who has dedicated $1 billion of his Wall Street fortune to the destruction of Social Security as we know it. Peterson is joined in his efforts by other wealthy special interests that have much to gain if Social Security is cut or eliminated. Despite the overwhelming public support for Social Security and the critical retirement, survivors and disability insurance it provides to millions of Americans, Peterson and his Wall Street friends want to reduce Social Security's protections and force average working Americans to put their future retirement, life and disability security in the hands of Wall Street -- the same crowd that nearly caused a collapse of our economy and pushed the country into the Great Recession.

www.huffingtonpost.com...

the goal is the same as it was when bush tried to overhaul it.....
get our money into the wall street casinos, under the control of the rich wall street gamblers!!!

and well, I might as well post the rest of the article.......and risk chastisement...
what can I say, the other side of the story should be told and considered also!!!

It would be very unpopular for the opponents to simply state that their goal is to reduce or eliminate Social Security, requiring politicians to eat from a poison apple. Instead, the opponents try to create false fear about the future of Social Security by making it seem as if the program contributes to the nation's budget deficit and debt. The same Wall Street firms that needed the taxpayers to bail them out -- and individuals like Peterson who took advantage of a tax loophole that enabled him to pay taxes on his Wall Street profits at the same rate as a janitor cleaning his office -- are conducting a massive lobbying campaign to reduce Social Security protections for working Americans and their families by claiming it is a way to lower the federal budget deficit. The opponents' tactic of setting up Social Security as a false culprit in the deficit problem diverts attention away from the real causes of the deficit -- two wars not paid for, the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy, and the costs associated with the economic crisis, such as the Wall Street bailout. If the opponents of Social Security are able to cut Social Security's benefits, they will accomplish two objectives: (1) reducing Social Security protections while driving retirees into the hands of Wall Street; and (2) hiding the real causes of the deficit and the debt from honest budgetary scrutiny. A look at their claims about Social Security and the budget reveals the falsehoods they continue to promote.

www.huffingtonpost.com...

the securitites in the fund are backed by the "Full Faith and Credit" of the U.S. Gov't.....
just as the dollars in your pocket are!!!
so, well, if social security is broke, then I guess you are also?? even if you have a million dollars in your bank account....YOU ARE BROKE!! BECAUSE THE "FULL FAITH AND CREDIT" OF THE U.S. GOV'T ISN'T WORTH THE AMOUNT OF TIME IT TOOK ME TO MAKE THIS POST!!!

and let's venture into foreclosureland, shall we......
can't find this article either, will come back and post them when I find them....
but, it turns out, according to one article.....

they were appointing high schools students (minors???) as vice presidents of banks, and well, they were forging the names of high school student (minors???) onto legal papers!!!
now if you and me were to lead a minor astray in any way, shape or form, our tail ends would be in jail!!!
where's the prosecutions???

I said when this mess erupted...
I am not paying for it!!!

and I am not gonna pay for it!!!

if the powers that be want my contribution to societiy, not to mention to the gov't revenues....
well, they need to find a way where I am not paying for it!!!

heck, if I can find a way, I'll arrange so my kids ain't paying for it either!!!

reply to post by dawnstar

the securitites in the fund are backed by the "Full Faith and Credit" of the U.S. Gov't.....
just as the dollars in your pocket are!!!
so, well, if social security is broke, then I guess you are also?? even if you have a million dollars in your bank account....YOU ARE BROKE!! BECAUSE THE "FULL FAITH AND CREDIT" OF THE U.S. GOV'T ISN'T WORTH THE AMOUNT OF TIME IT TOOK ME TO MAKE THIS POST!!!

.....and that does not scare you? Do you not understand that there is no social security trust fund? The so called trust fund is flooded with valueless T-Bonds. How can you not get that this is a huge problem???????? The money is worthless, just as soon as people realize it is. It's current "worth" is based solely upon your belief that it has value. Please stop deluding yourself and understand that the US government is broke; thus yes, like it or not, we are all broke. It is only a matter of time. Why do you think gold and silver are at all time highs? Why are people minting their own currencies? Why are states issuing their own currencies? We are in the shadow of a great big shoe and we are just waiting for it to drop. The only thing holding that "shoe" up and stopping from dropping right now is the shared belief that "full faith and credit" actually means something. Please take off your rose colored glasses and look at our current government. Look at who we have in government. Recall all of their lies and obfuscations. How much faith can you actually have in them? Believing in God and Jesus is a cinch compared to believing in obama, reid, pelosi, etc.... As for credit, have you checked our national debt?

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776
Recall all of their lies and obfuscations. How much faith can you actually have in them? Believing in God and Jesus is a cinch compared to believing in obama, reid, pelosi, etc.... As for credit, have you checked our national debt?

Those shameful, shameful Democrats, how they have ruined our nation. A Republican would never do such a thing. We can put our full faith and trust in the Republicans to never lead us astray nor take us down the primrose path. All hail the Republican Party! the only honest people on the face of the Earth. Right.

What a piece of work.

Originally posted by Erongaricuaro

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776
Recall all of their lies and obfuscations. How much faith can you actually have in them? Believing in God and Jesus is a cinch compared to believing in obama, reid, pelosi, etc.... As for credit, have you checked our national debt?

Those shameful, shameful Democrats, how they have ruined our nation. A Republican would never do such a thing. We can put our full faith and trust in the Republicans to never lead us astray nor take us down the primrose path. All hail the Republican Party! the only honest people on the face of the Earth. Right.

What a piece of work.

Dude. I blame GOVERNMENT. The repuklicans currently calling themselves "republicans" are a disgrace to the party of small government and fiscal responsibility. "Both" parties are guilty. Why both in quotation marks, you ask? There is no real measurable difference between your average repuklican and your average demonkrat in my opinion.

Ok, my conclusion is this. Liberals are great believers in social equalization, or wealth redistribution....but not with their own money. Instead of taking the lead and showing we fiscal conservatives the truth of their beliefs by funding the programs they want themselves, they rail against us for being selfish. The main difference I see is that they(Liberals) trust the government to keep faith with their promises. While fiscal conservatives look at all the lies, all the waste, all the corruption and say "government is not the answer".

reply to post by sonofliberty1776


let's see, paying our troops, ya know the ones who have fighting a few wars for the past decade or so.....
or giving mega millions in tax cuts to the wealthy....

sorry, it's only fair to pay for services rendered!!!

reply to post by sonofliberty1776


if the money is worthless...why are you fighting so hard to hold onto what you make??

why are you clinging to bush's tax cuts???

if it's all worthless pieces of paper anyways....

reply to post by dawnstar

Actually, I am within a few months of following Gault's lead and dropping out. I am already completely out of debt. Just getting a few more "ducks in a row", then I will leave my job. The money really holds little value to me. However, I spend part of my life earning that nearly worthless fiat currency. Why should I give part of my life to help those too lazy to get off the couch and help themselves? Even more importantly, why am I forced at gunpoint to do so? No thanks. Gault had it right. No more supporting the moochers. I don't need as much as I make, so why not reclaim the time? That is what is important to me. If these entitlements are important to you, what are you doing about it?

reply to post by sonofliberty1776


well, let's see, I'm over 50 but not 55, so while my husband supposedly will be getting the medicare we have today....I will be needs based...
I got news for ya, I am getting danged sick and tired of being sick and tired, working my arse off at a job that is more physical than most jobs, paying my taxes, listening to my state and country legislatures tell me I have to pay more, and more, so they can pay their share of MEDICAID!!
I've got an assoiciates degree that I got in the early 80's in computers, I've raised three kids, worked some while they were young, and was also a stay at home mom for a time. I've been in the screen printing business for close to ten years, five at the company that I am at now. I've never, ever, earned enough that I could survive on!!

so, just what do you expect me to do???
because quite frankly, before I am gonna be working till I am 70, or heck, we have a lady in her 90s working at my shop!! I will just take myself and what I have to offer out of this society, and well....trust that mother nature will be kinder to me!! I probably won't last long, but I will die knowing that the work I am doing is benefitting me only for a change!

the simple fact is.....
we aren't in a bind because of social security here, we aren't in a bind because of handouts...
we are in a bind because wall street and the real estate industry got greedy and careless. and blew the heck out of our economy....
I didn't gain anything from this fiasco....
and I am not gonna be one of the ones paying for it!!
they want to balance the budget, I suggest they go and start prosecuting some people from the fraud that went down and recouping some of the losses!!

I agree, prosecutions and asset forfeitures are definitely warranted here.

reply to post by sonofliberty1776


why worry about paying your debts??
the gov't owes a massive debt to the social security fund, and everyone thinks that it should be overlooked, why not just overlook yours too?

remember back when bush was president, all the conservatives, claiming just how great our economy was, and just how irrelevant the gov't debt was?? even days before the congress was informed that our economy would fall through the floor if we didn't bail them out, the conservatives were claiming how great our economy was, and anyone who claimed otherwise, were just losers, or not working hard enough, ect....

well, I was writing letters to my elected representatives, along with yours probably, both dems and republicans during the clinton years, I spent the bush years trying to tell the people on forums such as ATS. and well, as far as I can see, not too many people listened! I am not paying for the mess. My family went through heck, just trying to live for the past 20 years. Our money was taken, even as I watched my feet deteriorate to the point where I had to quite my job, and on ward till the ankle finally broke, and was in a splint, and I could find no doctor willing to take me without an insane down payment, and oh no, my family made plenty of money, we didn't need any help from the gov't, no, matter of fact, give us some more!! your neighbor needs to take her child to the doctor for the runny nose!! and well, the conservatives call me a liar when I tell the story, because they don't want to admit that no, not everyone who needs medical treatment will get it..... I will never forget that, and I will never forgive society or our gov't for it! This past year, I crapped blood, a hernia that I still say I got as a result of my work.....
I finally said heck with how much it's gonna cost me, and went and had it done....I saw jobs in the paper that I really wanted to go for, but well, I was afraid to let the insurance go while crapping blood. so, well, the bill for the ankle was over two years of my wage. the bill for the hernia as near as I can tell, cost me just as much....
in short, my job is costing me twice as much as I make in healthcare costs. which to me, sounds like a losing position to me....
My father and my mother worked and paid into the social security for their entire lives, my dad died before he collected anything, my mom died a year after qualifying, where's there money?? my husband and me worked and paid most of our lives, where's ours? if they drop social security, or change it to the point where I am still working my arse off, but well, even after hurt and not able to walk they are gonna tell me tough luck, you make too much money, you're on your own......are they at least gonna refund the money I have put into it??
heck no!! they gave every cent they could get their hands on to their rich buddies and their pets (low income earners and the non earners of society!!) let the god blessed economy collaspe!! it's an abomination to god and mankind! a mutant, part socialist, part capaitalist, and well, both parts are geared to only really helping the rich get richer...and making everyone else poorer than poor!
I am done with it, they are spending more every month (and if the republicans were in charge, they would be too!!) than they would save if they cut every handout to the average person down to 0!! they only want the money, so they can give that away too!
the cuts should be fair and balanced!! the answer cannot be to just rip off the old and disabled, since well, they are the least likely to hit the streets in protest!

In my life I was a registered Democrat, a Republican, and a Libertarian. Today I am none of those. I am retired and I am a Mexican, and proud of it. I feel as though I have personal freedom in my life and never want to return north to the US ever again.

I retired at 53 because my employer said the economy was going into the dumpster and wanted volunteers for early retirement. In my whole shop I was the only one that was not in debt up to my ears, nor mortgaged up to my other body parts, and was the only one who could take advantage of the early retirement offer even though I had planned to work another 10 years or so. I went from making about $90k to a pension of around $1500 a month - though my US taxes on it claim back one of those months. I live well on that here, not rich but well.

I worked, I saved, I paid into a pension fund, and paid into a personal retirement account that I do not yet draw from. Between my employers and myself we paid nearly $200k into Social Security and though I am still too young to draw on it but expect I will see some of it, though surely not all of it nor the interest it has accumulated for well over 40 years now. And if I don't I will still get by but I am expecting my SS will even-out inflation and actually provide me a bit of luxury.

Sorry if that grinds anyone's gears. When I was younger it seemed an impossible task to ever gain financial security, but just doing what I knew I had to do has provided me with a nice retirement for the past five years now and I believe I have enough for the rest of my life, with or without SS. I paid for it and I'm not giving it back even if I don't "need" it - I remember what a big deal Ronald Reagan made of collecting his SS check while he was President. Good for him, good for me.

Let me say something about healthcare. It costs me about $2.50 in US dollars to visit a doctor here and maybe about $30 or so to see a specialist. These doctors here actually spend time with me and the care I receive here is well-beyond anything I had in the US. I mention this because IT CAN BE DONE! A doctor here is not a wealthy man, though he earns a good living. People do not go into medicine for the prestige and the money but seem to choose it because they have a sincere desire to practice medicine and make people well. They do it because they care - at least that is the impression I get when I visit them.

I feel for the people who do not have it so well as I. For some it is fortune or misfortune, and for others it it bad choices. I chose a career off-shore and lived without any semblance of an orderly family life so I could be a work-aholic. I am earning my reward for those choices now. I did nothing but play the game and follow the rules. It was not always easy and most times it was hard. Some may suffer misfortunes and others will make bad choices but I am of the opinion most anyone can have a good life. You can fight the system or you can let it work for you, even with setbacks.

I am young enough to enjoy life and enjoy retirement. The weather is warm and the people are friendly. Someday I may get tired of steamed shrimp, tequila shots, Mexican beer, and mota for $100 a kilo, but not for awhile yet. All is possible if you have a mind to do it.

Oh, and BTW, I have always been liberal minded.

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776
How much extra money, in addition to your taxes, do you liberals and socialists give to the government each year to "help" pay for those programs you believe we so desperately need?

I volunteer at those programs (which yes, is a form of income for them -- they need trained staff and the budget is so small they can't afford to hire anyone.) Since the start of the Texas Master Naturalist class in February, I've done 67 hours for Audubon (ntmn.org...) and around 60 hours for the Museum of Nature and Science. The tasks I do (teaching, computer work, fossil preparation) are high skill jobs and so I'm filling positions that they would have to pay $30-$60 per hour.

So I've given something over $4,000 to the causes I believe in -- causes that receive government funding. My husband (who volunteers at Audubon) has donated around the same amount.

We're both retired and on a fixed income.

And how much did you give?