Why you can't compare Chernobyl and Fukushima (and why you can't just "bury" Fukushima)

There many things on ATS that are "up for debate" or "IMHO" but there other things that people just aren't doing enough research on, (or maybe they don't have the time, not pointing fingers), but this is one topic where people just seem to regurgitate the same questions or opinions when real answers are out there.

I'll try not to make this long winded, but still simple to understand.
And if I need to be corrected I welcome it because I am mostly self educated on this, but not by following the media.
In fact the more I researched the more I realized how much reporters aren't researching it!
This information may have been long-reading, but definitely not hard to find.

Ok, so a quick lesson on nuclear fission, because that is what's happening at Fukushima:

nuclear fission is a nuclear reaction

Nuclear fission produces energy for nuclear power and to drive the explosion of nuclear weapons. Both uses are made possible because certain substances called nuclear fuels undergo fission when struck by free neutrons and in turn emit neutrons when they break apart. This makes possible a self-sustaining chain reaction that releases energy at a controlled rate in a nuclear reactor or at a very rapid uncontrolled rate in a nuclear weapon

So this tells us that a nuclear meltdown (nuclear fission) in Jaoan is a self-sustaining reaction.
And nothing can stop a self-sustaining nuclear reaction, except to stop the reaction itself.
Which requires a fission device. (Nuclear weapon).

So:

a fission bomb (not to be confused with the fusion bomb), otherwise known as an atomic bomb or atom bomb, is a fission reactor designed to liberate as much energy as possible as rapidly as possible, before the released energy causes the reactor to explode (and the chain reaction to stop)

Now let's take a look at Chernobyl.
The whole story of the events leading up to the incident are easy to research. And quite interesting. Just typing in "Chernobyl documentary" into any search engine brings up several free documentaries that you can view online.
However, for the sake of my topic, I only need the end result:

There was a sudden power output surge, and when an emergency shutdown was attempted, a more extreme spike in power output occurred, which led to a reactor vessel rupture and a series of explosions. This event exposed the graphite moderator of the reactor to air, causing it to ignite

KA-BOOM! Self-sustaining chain reaction stopped.
And then they buried it. Well it took a little more then that actually but they could do it in that situation.

Now, Fukushima. I don't think I have to post a link to tell anyone what's going on in Japan.
There are meltdowns (nuclear reactions) happening in more then one reactor.
And how do you stop a nuclear reaction? You have to stop the reaction itself.
Which they can't do, therefore they can't just bury it in concrete or sand or anything else.
It will just explode and make things worse.

I wish it didn't sound like such a lose-lose situation but the facts are there for anyone who wants to pay enough attention.
Don't listen to the media on this one at all because they are blatantly ignoring truth-speakers like Michio Kaku who tries so hard to explain the severity of it all. But they don't want to hear, "there's nothing they can do to get this under control".
It's not pretty, but at least it's the truth.


Sorry, forgot to add links
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by SalemsLot


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I credit this to the ATS administrators! Plus i changed post to thread
Click Me I do Nothing!

reply to post by xShadow13


Sorry, my first thread, accidentallyy hit enter after I typed in my title

reply to post by SalemsLot


I still think that I can compare them... They both were Nuclear Disasters and both had the "50 man" cycle thing going on. Sorry for the other post... It was before you put something in the thread....

Click Me I do Nothing!

reply to post by xShadow13


Well if you want to be basic then yes, they are both nuclear disasters.
Same way an apple and an orange are both fruit, doesn't mean they are the same.

good job on your first thread!

i think they knew this from day 2.....I just hope the rest of the world realizes this and takes measures so it doesn't happen anywhere else in the world

I don't think the fuel rod meltdown is the same as a nuclear reaction at all. As far as I know, what's happening in Japan is the outer casing of the fuel rods has melted, exposing the uranium cores to the coolant. Now they have leaks in the containment vessels and the contaminated coolant is pooling around the reactor buildings and seeping into the groundwater and running off into the ocean. Chernobyl was a graphite cooled reactor and once that started burning the radiation was disbursed directly into the air.

reply to post by SalemsLot


True in basic terms. They both happened in different ways, and i think Japan was(still) way worse?

Click Me I do Nothing!

Does this mean that the best possible solution would be to actually nuke Fukushima purposely in order to create the fission?

I've suggested this half heartedly, being that Japan is still the only country to ever experience nuclear attack perhaps it's the time to nuke them with a real life saving purpose rather than that of Hiroshima/Nagasaki?

Originally posted by xShadow13
reply to post by SalemsLot

 

True in basic terms. They both happened in different ways, and i think Japan was(still) way worse?

Click Me I do Nothing!

And I agree it will be way worse.
I'm not trying to be Mr. Smarty-pants, it just seemed like there were so many posts in so many threads asking
"Why don't they just bury the thing?" or "They should have poured concrete on it 2 weeks ago!"

I wondered why they weren't doing that myself so I researched.
Now I understand why they can't and I'm just sharing what I learned.

Originally posted by mythatsabigprobe
I don't think the fuel rod meltdown is the same as a nuclear reaction at all. As far as I know, what's happening in Japan is the outer casing of the fuel rods has melted, exposing the uranium cores to the coolant. Now they have leaks in the containment vessels and the contaminated coolant is pooling around the reactor buildings and seeping into the groundwater and running off into the ocean. Chernobyl was a graphite cooled reactor and once that started burning the radiation was disbursed directly into the air.

Can't argue with you cause I won't claim that I know it all on this stuff but from what I read,
when the fuel rods start to melt, that is a nuclear reaction.

And the breaches reported in the containment vessels, as I hear it, are because the fuel rods have melted through.

Originally posted by Pr0t0
Does this mean that the best possible solution would be to actually nuke Fukushima purposely in order to create the fission?

I've suggested this half heartedly, being that Japan is still the only country to ever experience nuclear attack perhaps it's the time to nuke them with a real life saving purpose rather than that of Hiroshima/Nagasaki?

edit on 31-3-2011 by Pr0t0 because: (no reason given)

That's the problem, a solution isn't necessarily a good thing.
It could actually make the fallout worse if they bombed it.

Lose-lose ....

Originally posted by BadBoYeed
good job on your first thread!

i think they knew this from day 2.....I just hope the rest of the world realizes this and takes measures so it doesn't happen anywhere else in the world

Well a few countries are now announcing the revision of their safety standards but who really knows for sure

Oh, and thanks

This pretty much sums it up for me. It`s a general consensus of the assorted threads on ATS. So what next? Will this continue unchecked indefinitely or is the next step that the corium melts downward and explodes when it hits the water table? Remember this plant is almost at sea level so this is not an unlikely scenario. Are they hoping this will stop the reaction and leave something they can contain? We can see what they can`t do (entomb the reactors) but what, in practical terms, CAN they do?

So finally we are down to this stage.NOW theres NOTHING WE CAN DO?
OK so lets model the WORST CASE SCENARIOS>>>Looks like thats what comming.
There is the ongoing problem of cooling.
There is the meltdown in #2 which is pretty much confirmed.
There are several cooling/storage pools.
There is the MOX fuel to deal with.....
At present there is one breached vessel with nuclear fuel out and laying on the cement floor of the #2 drywell.
(we need to know what will happen to that fuel.
Will it be hot enough to burn through the reinforced concrete, and melt its way down into the bedrock?
Will they continue to water this stuff down whilst this ensues to prevent further heat problems?
Is it entirely possible this will be repeated three more times in succession?
By that time, i should think huge amounts of radiation should have been disbersed into the air, and the seas.
Maybe they should just trench around the place and catch what runoff they can on the perimeter.They could pump it off to containers or ships or whatever.
It looks like a long uphill cleanup job. fraught with moments of shear terror ................

Originally posted by SalemsLot

So this tells us that a nuclear meltdown (nuclear fission) in Jaoan is a self-sustaining reaction.
And nothing can stop a self-sustaining nuclear reaction, except to stop the reaction itself.
Which requires a fission device. (Nuclear weapon).

The difference between Cherynobyl and Fukushima is that the reaction was not contained quick enough in the Chernobyl disaster. There was a lag between the time that the control rods were inserted back into the reactor and that caused the reactor to go beyond limits. There was also design flaws with the control rods that it actually caused greater fission reactions to occur while the control rods were being inserted to reduce fission.

In Fukushima, the reactor was SCRAM'd. With technological advances and lessons learned from the Chernobyl disaster, reactor control rods were designed to be inserted almost instantaneously to stop the fission process. The problems in Japan, from what I understand, is the containment pools. These are used to store the spent fuel. It consists of a large pool of water, with chemical additions to prevent radiation from escaping. Anyways, I believe that the pools are what is compromised. While this is still bad. It is not the same as a nuclear reactor experiencing an uncontrolled fission process. There are too many safety measures in place for that to happen. Now the spent fuel in the pools is a different story. Water at this point is the only thing preventing a more catastrophic event from taking place.

Good article though OP. This is a terrible event that has transpired, but the fear that this event will end all life on Earth is a bit far fetched. Education on the subject can be difficult, but quite rewarding when on starts understanding the intricacies that are in place in the nuclear field.

reply to post by saabster5


You are correct about this not being an uncontrolled reaction like chernobyl was. In the Chernobyl accident they we trying a emergency scram test attempting to use the main tubine (while spinning down) to power the cooling pumps while the backup generators were coming online. Great idea and this was attemped before but with out success they were just trying new perameters.

They started their test but need to hold off because they need the reactor to meet energy demands. They created a very unsafe condition in the reactor by having the control rods almost completely removed causeing lots of heat that they controlled with cooling water whilst not using the heat to produce must power unsafe condition indeed.

When they got the power surge they were no longer able to keep the rods cool with cooling water causing the reaction to go uncontrolled, when they tried to scram the reactor (insert control rods) the damage had already been done thus the total meltdown happened.

The Fukushima reactors were scramed immediately so no uncontrolled reaction can happen, the problem there is keeping the spend fuel rods cool (like previously stated) and the decay heat from the rods in the reactors too.
The back up generators failed and with no power to to keep the cooling pumps online the decay heat cannot be taken away from the reactor and spent fuel rods thus causing the extra pressure that made the explosions(their is alot more then just boiling water like hydrogen and stuff but im no expert so I wont try to eplain that part) the explosions damaged the cooling system and now that is where is sits now just trying to keep the decay heat from the rods and not trying to control the reaction like Chernobyl was.