From Mecca to 9/11

Reading and thinking about posts by Ruscat, Gazrock, et al.

I definitely hear what you are saying, that Islam is not alone in its abuses of people, nor perhaps even spectacular in its excesses.

But certainly, Muslims seem much more motivated than Christians do, to force their will upon others.

What have Christian militants blown up lately?

When, in 2004, has someone been given the choice between Christianity and being beheaded?

How many Christian/Western Suicide Bombers can you name?
AS for muslims, lets see . . .
There were 19 on airplaine on September 11
Several hundred in Israel since 1987.
A hundred or so in Iraq.
A dozen or so in Discos in Germany in the last 20 years.
Several in SE Asia.
The 3 guys who tried to blow up the WTC in 1996
The 2 who drove a speed boat into the USS Cole.

Yes there are plenty of westerners and Christians who are total Jerks, but you don't see them willing to commit suicide to inflict deaths on the enemy.

And don't tell me that muslims are desperate either. The 19 in America before Sept 11 were going to college and/or flight school. They weren't starving to death. They didn't care about their material well-being, because they had already chosen to die for the cause.

Many in the Arab world are experiencing the highest standard of living in their whole history, just as we are in the west.

liberals (with a small 'l'; I don't mean democrats) are quick to castigate cult leaders like David Koresh, Marshall Appelwhite and Jim Jones who twist religion until its something predatory and evil.

If Heaven's Gate or Branch Davidian devotees are wandering loose in the world, would you be concerned? What if they were teaching people to die trying to blow up the capitol building? Would you say their religion is a threat then?

If Charles Manson was a threat to society, with 30 followers, then aren't the ulammah that demand Jihad from a billion people a much more serious threat?

What's the difference if their follwers happen to be Non-western? Does that mean we're not allowed to critique them, or treat them as a serious threat to our way of life?

Or do you have a policy on only castigating white people for the wickedness they cause in the name of God?

Originally posted by Jazzerman
. . .One thing that does bug me about your thinking though, is that I think your perception of Islam may be a little distorted. Regular everyday Muslims just like regular everyday Christians are not the problem.

PS- There is a term called ethnocentrism....dont be guilty of it. Just because their culture is different than our and their experiences are different than ours we cannot judge them on our terms. ...

I know that you think my perception of Islam is "a little distorted."

My response: I went to the Middle East for the first time in 1987, on business. At that time (and for years afterward) I considered myself an atheist. I worked regularly alongside muslims who invited me to their homes; they often contacted me afterwards when they came to America, and I visited them in their countries, too. I traveled and worked several times in Lebanon, Israel, and Jordan, and have traveled to Egypt and Syria.

I have read the Qur'an, and as much of the Hadith (commentaries) as muslim friends have given me. Over the years, numerous muslim friends have had extensive ongoing conversations with me about Islam, because of my continuing interest in Sufism. (which leads me to believe that "SALAM" was educated as a Muslim, and may have made the profession. I'd like to u2u him about HIS expereinces)

My wife, "Frau Doktor" is part Arab (which we pass of as "mexican" in Texas. Anglos can't tell the difference!). I am in the process of teaching myself Arabic.

* * * * *

I get the impression that you think 'regular everyday muslims' are just like Christians.

This is where you and I disagree, although you are certainly entitled to your opinions. Muslims and Christians are both "triumphalist," in that they believe God wants them to win over those opposed to their truth. The difference is that the Qur'an encourages muslims to treat infidels in dehumanizing ways. Christ told his followers to pray for their enemies.

* * * * * *
It seems like you believe that we cannot judge people who are different "on our own terms."

Your point about ethnocentrism is well taken. I believe that EVERY person is a racist or elitist in some degree, whether they can admit it or not. Certainly, I am partly the product of my environment.

On the other hand, respecting others as human beings does not mean that I cannot form an opinion about their acts, and prepare to defend myself when I believe they wish to do me harm.

As for judging people who are different than me "on my terms," it is my right. And they can judge me on their own terms:

Hitler was an inhuman monster, because he engineered the deaths of untold masses of human beings. I can say that, because I'm white.

Now, I may not be Mayan, but I still say that the Aztec priests were inhuman monsters, too; And I'm using EXACTLY the same criteria I used for evaluating Adolf Hitler. The priests engineered the deaths of untold masses of human beings

Am I wrong for calling the Aztecs monsters? If so, why? because they are non-whites?

If I am entitled, as a thinking person, to pass judgment on German culture, or Aztec culture, or the culture of Imperial Japan, or Torquemada's Inquisition, then why am I not entitled to pass judgement on Muslim thought and practice?

I say that I am entitled to do exactly that.

Besides, they are passing judgment on me. (and upon you as well, you non-muslim, you!)

Regardless of what they think of me, I will always see them as beautiful and fascinating creatures, capable of incredible art as well as unbelieveable cruelty (just like us).

I will also see them as endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, among these being the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Whether they want it or not.

Just in case you wondered.

Well said, dr_strangecraft. Muslims are not bad people. Islam is. Just like German and Nazism. Someone may wonder why it would have such a large number of followers and passed for 1400 years. It's fear and violence keep it alive. Islam is ambitious. Muslims had once fought under Nazis flag


A picture taken in 1943 of the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Haj Amin el-Husseini reviewing Bosnian-Muslim troops - a unit of the "Hanjar (Saber) Division" of the Waffen SS which he personally recruited for Hitler

Ironically, Haj Amin el-Husseini is uncle of Yasser Arafat (his real name is Abd al-Rahman abd al-Bauf Arafat al-Qud al-Husseini)