Touchdown: B-2 stealth jets return after epic 11,500 mile journey to bomb Libyan aircraft shelters

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by hp1229

 

Technology is only part of this story, hero worship is another part of the story as evidenced by the actual content of the story itself.

The story is also about not just the endurance of a machine, but the endurance of the people operating them.

Sure you might worship technology but the tech is just a tool, a tool of policy, a tool of people.

Who is worshipping the hero? I am simply going by the main topic of this thread. I thought we are discussing the tool itself and not the policy that requires the use of the tool.

You are repeating few things that I pointed earlier in different responses. Technology is nothing more than a tool. I just happen to like the tools and I would rather discuss the tool technology

reply to post by hp1229


The opening story is the opening story. It talks about a number of things. You would prefer to focus on just one aspect of those things. That's your preference, but it's not 'everyone's' preference.

The story is not a tech piece, if it were it would be all diagrams, specs and charts and would have been published by popular mechanic, or Jane's.

The story is a political fluff piece, designed to promote heros and the concepts of virtue and morality.

This has led to people talking about those various aspects.

I don't see the story as a tech piece, and I think if you objectively read the entire story the opening piece is based on you will see it's not a tech piece either.

Thanks.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by hp1229

 

The opening story is the opening story. It talks about a number of things. You would prefer to focus on just one aspect of those things. That's your preference, but it's not 'everyone's' preference.

Hmmm... Interesting.

Yes, I am aware that its not everyone's preference.
Besides its your thread. I'll just sit n watch

reply to post by hp1229


No it's not my thread, anon72 posted the original piece and started the thread.

I appreciate where you are coming from, that you have an interest in the technology.

Yet the truth is this opening article is a political fluff piece designed to give people politically inspired talking points that the government would very much like people to adhere and stick too. Principally that this is a noble and heroic venture of a technologically advanced and disciplined and determined people and that we should take pride in and believe in all those things.

That's what the core of the article really is all about, and yes, here on ATS a lot of members bristle at that kind of propaganda and no, don't want to view things along the narrow focus of the talking points such articles try to give us.

I can empathize with your position but there is a Weaponry forum where if you really wanted to have a technical discussion on the specs and capabilities of the B-2 you can start a thread about it there in a forum that isn't about politics but simply hardware and enjoy that kind of conversation if it is something you enjoy.

Yes these are technological achievements but bombers aren't defensive weapons they are offensive weapons and we aren't undertaking these offensive campaigns in the defensive mode that the government tries to sell them.

We make really great offensive weapons, offence being the key word there.

Our governments propaganda likewise offends a lot of people and you are simply seeing those reactions here to that in this thread.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by hp1229

 

No it's not my thread, anon72 posted the original piece and started the thread.

ok.

Sounds good.

Originally posted by hp1229

Originally posted by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi

Originally posted by jimmyx

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

What arrogance.

The topic is about the technology (B2) and not about international politics/policies and UN. You really seem to be upset with something and your comments seems more to do with a Technological Inferiority Complex

Why are you drifting into the COLDWAR mentality?

edit on 23-3-2011 by hp1229 because: (no reason given)

No it's not just about the technology. The B2 was deployed two decades ago, so it's not breaking news.

In case you have not noticed, the OP was all about the B2 making a 25+ hour run to Libya where it dropped 45 bombs there. There are some serious international implications there, but I guess the guys dropping the bombs don't care about that.

orangetom1999-
I think you meant UN/United Nation intervention and bombing..did you not?? Your slip seems to be showing here.

You have got to be kidding me.

This is not a UN operation. This is not peacekeeping. The Libyans did not ask the UN for help, the US told the UN that they would form a coalition to conduct a no-fly implimentation over Libya and the UN allowed it because the US now runs the UN.

If this was a UN operation, then where are the Russians and Chinese? They are calling for an immediate ceasefire while Americans continue to bomb hospitals and shoot civilians there.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi

 

We are the new Nazis a highly militarized, heavily indoctrinated group of war mongerers, waging war for resources under the thin guise of patriotism and religious crusades.

Ultimately the American people will pay a terrible price for being so asleep at the wheel, indiferent and accepting of these horrible policies, acts, and wars carried out in our name.

I can't wait to see what some of these so called Patriots have to say then.

New Nazis? Where are the concentration camps and why aren't you in one? You do realize that if you get your wish, anyone exercising old freedoms like speech will get them a ticket on the first cattle car.

Agenda is seething from your posts now.

You distort and twist every fibre of the truth. The action in Libya is not US alone, It is to protect civilian life. That is not warmongering, there is no resources we are going after, there is no religious reasons, There are no Nazi's
involved. In fact Germany and Italy abstained from sending warplanes just for that very reason, too close in time to their previous occupation of Libya and they did not want that to hamper the mission. They cited those reasons to the UN.

The american people are not going to pay some terrible price, you have no inside knowledge of some grand conspiracy that will topple america like you try to represent yourself as being a special figure in the know. There is a psychotic condition for desperately wanting to be important, perhaps you could take a pill.

reply to post by TinfoilTP


You funny, the old you have to have to have a concentration camp full of Jews being exterminated to be a Nazi argument.

By the way Holocaust means burnt offering and sacrifice so you might actually want to revisit just how and what World War II was fought over and for one of these days.

But yes we have the classic cornerstones of the Fascist State.

Strong Military Industrial Complex-check
Strong Security Industrial Complex-check
Strong Prison Industrial Complex-check
Autocratic Dictatorial Strong Leader-check

And before you try saying what to the last one, not one American voted on this action in Libya, but the President deciding to do it.

So yes we are a fascist nation now and that's just what it is my friend.

Further yes the United Nations founded by the Council for Foreign Relations a Rockefeller think tank and foundation is very much trying to establish a one world government and to collapse the sovereignty of existing nations through controlling the banking, commerce, and legal systems across borders in a multi-national corporate driven attempt to erode national independence.

This has certainly occured since we have transfered all of our manufacturing output overseas and put almost all resources including farming into a few corporate hands.

It would seem to me if these things weren't all true you wouldn't have a need to try to assail the charachter of the person sharing them, as they would in essence dismiss themselves.

If it walks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck, and swims like a duck, well it's a duck.

Which is pretty much all that post of yours was trying to do...duck!

Originally posted by TinfoilTP

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi

 

We are the new Nazis a highly militarized, heavily indoctrinated group of war mongerers, waging war for resources under the thin guise of patriotism and religious crusades.

Ultimately the American people will pay a terrible price for being so asleep at the wheel, indiferent and accepting of these horrible policies, acts, and wars carried out in our name.

I can't wait to see what some of these so called Patriots have to say then.

New Nazis? Where are the concentration camps and why aren't you in one? You do realize that if you get your wish, anyone exercising old freedoms like speech will get them a ticket on the first cattle car.

Agenda is seething from your posts now.

Nazis were fascists. They were an extreme right-wing empire with a large military force at their disposal. They had a global intelligence network. Their leaders were extremely popularized. Their population was filled with diversion and propaganda in order to maintain their machine. Their economic was based off of extreme free market princibles (Von Hayak) and private interests held a lot of political power.

The similarities are striking.

And concentration camps? Guess you've never heard of extraordinary rendition, where the US transfers select prisoners to dictatorships where the prisoners could be tortured (Syria, Egypt, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc). Or there's also the dozens, if not hundreds, of secret CIA camps all over Europe and Asia. Guatanamo Bay conducts torture, though they pretty it up by claiming it is "enhanced interrogation".

Oh, and FEMA camps. That's going to be a sad time for Americans when they find out that they really do exist.

Oh yeah I forgot, over 2 million Americans in prisons.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


The fallacies you portray are very entertaining, I'll give you that.

The US is not and never was a democracy. It is a Democratic Republic. Never since it's inception has the public voted on a foreign affairs matter. The public doesn't vote on anything at the federal level and never has nor was it designed to. Characterizing that as a dictatorship can only come from an uneducated person or a person who deliberately misrepresents historical fact.

We are a superpower, all winners of WWII came out with millitary industrial complex's intact or quickly rebuilt. No mystery or conspiracy there. That is what happens after wars, to quote Charie Sheen "Winners Win".
With that, every other conspiritorial falsehood you spewed off falls apart with those two simple facts laid to rest.

You are pretending to enlighten the ATS world based on a foundation of nothing.

reply to post by TinfoilTP


Actually it's a representative republic and I sure feel special when you proudly chime in how the people were never designed to have a say in things but hey it's not a dictatorship???



Oh boy.

What came out of World War II besides the establishment of the Nation of Israel which has done a great job in it's purpose to destabilize the Middle East and provide the pretext for endless war, is the full time military industrial complex being grown to fight World War III.

A war that likely wouldn't happen if it was the people who actually got to vote on things and have a say in their own destinies.

Glad you like this system, most of the world hates it and lives in fear and terror of it.

The Nazis were notorious too for their proud arrogance when they were 'winning' and like Charlie what goes up, comes right back down.

What goes around comes around my friend, it's not a matter of if, it's always just a matter of when.

Originally posted by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi

Originally posted by TinfoilTP

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi

 

We are the new Nazis a highly militarized, heavily indoctrinated group of war mongerers, waging war for resources under the thin guise of patriotism and religious crusades.

Ultimately the American people will pay a terrible price for being so asleep at the wheel, indiferent and accepting of these horrible policies, acts, and wars carried out in our name.

I can't wait to see what some of these so called Patriots have to say then.

New Nazis? Where are the concentration camps and why aren't you in one? You do realize that if you get your wish, anyone exercising old freedoms like speech will get them a ticket on the first cattle car.

Agenda is seething from your posts now.

Nazis were fascists. They were an extreme right-wing empire with a large military force at their disposal. They had a global intelligence network. Their leaders were extremely popularized. Their population was filled with diversion and propaganda in order to maintain their machine. Their economic was based off of extreme free market princibles (Von Hayak) and private interests held a lot of political power.

The similarities are striking.

And concentration camps? Guess you've never heard of extraordinary rendition, where the US transfers select prisoners to dictatorships where the prisoners could be tortured (Syria, Egypt, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc). Or there's also the dozens, if not hundreds, of secret CIA camps all over Europe and Asia. Guatanamo Bay conducts torture, though they pretty it up by claiming it is "enhanced interrogation".

Oh, and FEMA camps. That's going to be a sad time for Americans when they find out that they really do exist.

Oh yeah I forgot, over 2 million Americans in prisons.

edit on 23-3-2011 by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi because: (no reason given)

We won, Nazis lost. Are you trying to say the Nazis fought themselves in WWII? Fail point

Every country in the world has a millitary idustrial complex,
every country in the world has an intelligence network,
every country in the world popularizes their leaders,
every country in the world uses propaganda,
You just described every country in the world, what point were you trying to make?

Nazi party controlled all industry, non nazis were not allowed to do business. You fail again.

Foreign prisoners can be sent to foreign countries, and again every country in the world has channels to do this. Another Fail point.

FEMA camps are nowhere to be found, show me an operating one with US citizens tossed in as political prisoners. You can't because they don't exist except as a fictitious scare mongering tool.

2 million people are in prisons because a jury of their peers said they broke the law. Nothing mysterious there.

You failed to make even one solid point in your whole post much less prove anything.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by TinfoilTP

 

Actually it's a representative republic and I sure feel special when you proudly chime in how the people were never designed to have a say in things but hey it's not a dictatorship???

Oh boy.

What came out of World War II besides the establishment of the Nation of Israel which has done a great job in it's purpose to destabilize the Middle East and provide the pretext for endless war, is the full time military industrial complex being grown to fight World War III.

A war that likely wouldn't happen if it was the people who actually got to vote on things and have a say in their own destinies.

Glad you like this system, most of the world hates it and lives in fear and terror of it.

The Nazis were notorious too for their proud arrogance when they were 'winning' and like Charlie what goes up, comes right back down.

What goes around comes around my friend, it's not a matter of if, it's always just a matter of when.

The US is not "most of the world" as you try to characterize it.
There is no tyrant, your use of the world "representative" shows you know the meaning of the word Democratic in Democratic Republic. Glad to see you admit to deliberately misrepresenting the US to fit your needs.
One day the US has a tyrant
The next day the US has representatives in the bag of TPTB
Which is it? A tyrant has no need for any representatives and vice versa.

These crackpot conspiracies are so full of cracks they can't agree with each other.

Originally posted by TinfoilTP
We won, Nazis lost. Are you trying to say the Nazis fought themselves in WWII? Fail point

Um... No?

Every country in the world has a millitary idustrial complex,
every country in the world has an intelligence network,
every country in the world popularizes their leaders,
every country in the world uses propaganda,
You just described every country in the world, what point were you trying to make?

Yes, every major country has those. What is your point? Are you unable to see the main difference between other leading countries and the US? That would be how the US has waged outright invasions of three different nations in the past decade, along with several subversive invasions using the Shock & Awe strategy (ie Haiti, Indonesia, any third world country hit by a major disaster that the US has sent troops and suits to "help recover" from).

Nazi party controlled all industry, non nazis were not allowed to do business. You fail again.

Yeah, that's called nationalism.

But do you not understand that the Nazis required funding to quickly rebuild their country? Major corporations and conservative elite funded the Nazis, including Ford company and Prescott Bush. They wanted a major war to start so they could profit from the need to produce supplies necessary for the effort.

Do you think that when Bush got into his presidency, that he just suddenly decided to invade Afghanistan and Iraq because of 9/11? It is all very well documented beforehand that PNAC planned out a new strategy for the US to undertake in order to maintain a significant global standing in the 21st century. It clearly outlined objectives, including invading Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran in order to secure oil (for both themselves and the global market). A lot of the PNAC signatories became top Bush officials, including Dick Cheney and Paul Wolfowitz. Dick Cheney himself had a lot to gain from the wars due to the fact that he was a CEO of Haliburton, a major contractor that benefitted in Iraq.

The facts go far beyond this.

Foreign prisoners can be sent to foreign countries, and again every country in the world has channels to do this. Another Fail point.

Who cares what other countries do? We are talking about the US here. Comparing the US to other countries isn't going to hide the fact that the US is hypocritical in its actions.

FEMA camps are nowhere to be found, show me an operating one with US citizens tossed in as political prisoners. You can't because they don't exist except as a fictitious scare mongering tool.

Who says they put prisoners in them yet? Who says they will even be labelled as prisoners when they are put in there?

A lot of documents that I've reviewed cover the Security and Prosperity Partnership deal between the US and Canada discuss joint operations in dealing with epidemics. It appears that the US has prepared long and hard for a vast, future epidemic and FEMA camps appear to be "quarantine" camps. There's also, quite literally, MILLIONS of plastic FEMA coffins located all over the US. I've even seen the pictures, and they are clearly not meant for anything else than dumping bodies in.

2 million people are in prisons because a jury of their peers said they broke the law. Nothing mysterious there.

There's more people in prisons in the US than in the entire rest of the world COMBINED.

Perhaps your laws are not in the interest of the people. Going to jail for a bag of weed or standing tall to a cop is not justice, and has nothing to do with being convicted by a "jury of their peers". And what the hell is "jury of their peers" supposed to mean exactly? They are strangers of the defendant, and they are being sold the idea of innocence or guilt by the lawyers involved. Justice in the west has little to do with reality; it has to do with the effectiveness of the lawyers and the inefficiencies of the system.

You failed to make even one solid point in your whole post much less prove anything.

I made lots of solid points. You did nothing but criticize me.

reply to post by TinfoilTP

The US is not "most of the world" as you try to characterize it.

Really I guess I won't be needing this US Military Map of the World then huh?

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/46a8f3eaea40.png[/atsimg]

There is no tyrant, your use of the world "representative" shows you know the meaning of the word Democratic in Democratic Republic.

Technically once again the Roman government oops I meant the United States Government is a represenative republic modelled off of Rome's but lacking a tribune of the plebes with veto power over the senate.

There is nothing democratic about the government.

Democracy as invented by the Greeks gave every person a say in every matter, while you state clearly our system was never designed to give people a say in every matter, so it's not a democracy.

You simply get to cast a ballot for a preselected and prescrened list of candidates, with the actual executive position of President safeguarded in it's selection by the edition of an electoral college that actually has the last and definitive say.

Since the representatives which there are only 600 for about 400 million people or 1 representative for each 666,666 thousand people (I bet he knows them all by first name too) are actually complaining themselves that the President did not consult with them first, I am really, really hard pressed to imagine how you see this not being a dictatorial process.

These crackpot conspiracies are so full of cracks they can't agree with each other.

Here is the deal my friend, stop trying to interpret what I say into what you want it to say because the fact is it's just dishonest.

The quote function on ATS is there for a reason, if you want to attribute comments I have made to me, then quote them from the source, verbatim and you won't make yourself look so dishonest.

Thanks.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


The USSR viewed the world the same way and had it divided up for military zones, China does too. That is common practice in millitary, relegating command to different zones of a potental battlefield. Your map don't prove empire it proves efficient millitary planning, commonplace. Iran probably has the entire middle east zoned up in the same way, doesn't mean it is their empire.

the United States Government is a represenative republic modelled off of Rome's but lacking a tribune of the plebes with veto power over the senate

The President has veto power over the Senate and House, you don't understand the system you are trying to explain.

reply to post by TinfoilTP


No my friend, you don't the Tribune of the Plebs is a position not in our government. Our president is the equivalent to the two Consuls, who both had veto power over the Senate.

The Tribune of the Plebs had to be a common man not of the Senatorial or Consul Class who could in fact veto the combined Senate and Consuls if they wanted too.

You really don't know where you are at do you?

You have simply been indoctrinated from birth into a culture that has led you to believe you are free and adequately represented in a government of the people.

Nothing could be further from the truth and the only thing that binds you into such a calamity and misserable world is your belief that it is true.

You are a free range economic slave taxed of the lion share of your labors and fleeced of most of the rest of them by a handful of corporations that operate in conjuction with the state.

The Government represents the patricians who own those corporations.

Corporations that are always looking to acquire more power through the acquisition of resources it uses the military to secure for them.

Which you are made to praise and pay and accept through penalties up to and including imprisonment and death.

It's all right in front of your face my friend.

You should try paying attention.

Thanks.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Proto,

I have been waiting quietly on the sidelines for this to come out ..but I think it goes over the heads of most of the readers out here.

Technically once again the Roman government oops I meant the United States Government

Thanks for not letting me down ...even in humor...although I realize that this is a very serious topic.

Interesting also to me the Hegelian template attempting to take place here without most being aware that it is the same template...from the same source.

Thanks,
Orangetom