Revelation and the Apostle John

So as you know, the Apostle John wrote the book of revelation, toward the end of his life, while living in a cave in seclusion. While some consider his writings to be the delusional ranting’s of a madman (my 70 year old mother told me that nuns in her parochial school taught her this), many have taken his vision to be a literal account of the end of the World.

So let's assume that his writings were the literal description of what he saw when he travelled forward into time to see the things he had. Many of the beasts and visions he describes are fantastical and bizarre, yet in the eyes of a first century man, our helicopters, tanks and jet fighters must have looked very, very weird to him. So, as many assume, he's describing things that are contemporary to our times, in terms that he understands from his times.

So let's further stipulate that we are living in the end times, and John is now perhaps among us, observing things through television, the internet or through any number of means in our hyper-connected World. He's seeing the earthquakes, the deaths of masses of birds and fish. The starvation, the wars and rumors of wars, all the things that are described in his book of Revelation that before now had never been so prominent in the Worlds consciousness, with such quickness and ubiquity.
Is John reading ATS? Is he watching videos on Youtube and other sites? Is he aware of the effect that his book has had in shaping people’s opinions of the events of these days? Is it a paradox that he's aware of what's happening in our time and our World, and is planning on writing this all down so he can warn the World, when we have already read his words of warning?

Wrap your heads around that one. John got a glimpse of the future- which may very well be our present (or near future) and wrote a book describing what he saw. A book we are keenly aware of, and many are using as a guide to the end days. There's even some speculation that some leaders, politicians and influence holders have decided to use Revelation as a playbook, so they can see the return of Christ.

I'm not sure what these days and events are in the light of his writings, but I can imagine him watching this all go down. Would make for one hell of a movie, wouldn't it?

reply to post by Hoosyourdaddyo


They weren't things he saw, they were the things that he was shown. He says that all the apostles were told of how it would end by Jesus. I would think it were cool if John was on ATS with us, but I don't think that's how it worked.
Peace!

reply to post by TheFuzzMonster


How was he shown? Through a series of visions, right? So where those visions Television Screens and Computor monitors showing the events in the future? Perhaps he saw the videos of the horsement we've seen on here?

John is surelly among us as much as he was in those days.

Since he didn't even exist.

Originally posted by AnotherYOU
John is surelly among us as much as he was in those days.

Since he didn't even exist.

I wonder how many other documents, outside christianity, were written by people who didn't exist.

I'm sorry, I just don't understand. What's the point of fabricating an apostle, who had much to do with the rest (unless you're saying Jesus and all of the apostles never existed) and then not giving credit to the person who did write it and insted create an alias? Who's story somehow tie into the stories written by other apostles?

A lot of things john wrote of are metaphors. go back and read ezekiel as well, very interesting stuff.

reply to post by Hoosyourdaddyo

Very interesting concept, I'm not sure I've heard that one before but it certainly makes sense. How exactly would a man from that time describe an F-18 or a battleship? He would have no point of reference beyond the organic or the very crude man made objects.
S&F for thinking outside the box.

Originally posted by Hoosyourdaddyo
So as you know, the Apostle John wrote the book of revelation, toward the end of his life, while living in a cave in seclusion. While some consider his writings to be the delusional ranting’s of a madman (my 70 year old mother told me that nuns in her parochial school taught her this), many have taken his vision to be a literal account of the end of the World.

So let's assume that his writings were the literal description of what he saw when he travelled forward into time to see the things he had. Many of the beasts and visions he describes are fantastical and bizarre, yet in the eyes of a first century man, our helicopters, tanks and jet fighters must have looked very, very weird to him. So, as many assume, he's describing things that are contemporary to our times, in terms that he understands from his times.

Perhaps he was shown, this is what I believe, in ways he'd understand and in that same way, that followers of the Bible would understand. Now being a follower of the Bible includes reading it, not being told what it says. Let no man fool you.

So let's further stipulate that we are living in the end times, and John is now perhaps among us, observing things through television, the internet or through any number of means in our hyper-connected World.

He would have seen the actual events, or rather representations of those events. Not internet media or TV reports of those events... maybe im being nitpicky though and for that I apologise if it was unneeded.

He's seeing the earthquakes, the deaths of masses of birds and fish. The starvation, the wars and rumors of wars, all the things that are described in his book of Revelation that before now had never been so prominent in the Worlds consciousness, with such quickness and ubiquity.
Is John reading ATS? Is he watching videos on Youtube and other sites? Is he aware of the effect that his book has had in shaping people’s opinions of the events of these days? Is it a paradox that he's aware of what's happening in our time and our World, and is planning on writing this all down so he can warn the World, when we have already read his words of warning?

I was unsure if at the beginning you literally ment John was among us, he is not. He's dead (sleeping).

Wrap your heads around that one. John got a glimpse of the future- which may very well be our present (or near future) and wrote a book describing what he saw. A book we are keenly aware of, and many are using as a guide to the end days. There's even some speculation that some leaders, politicians and influence holders have decided to use Revelation as a playbook, so they can see the return of Christ.

These people are not looking for the return of Christ. These people are afraid of that possibility although I doubt many of them even believe it will happen. They have built huge underground bunkers, stockpiled, taking every measure to ensure that they live through any possible catastrophy for man, including the second coming where God and his children clean up Earth. I can understand your viewpoint, if I see correctly, that revelations may be a force that globally pushes the expectations of the population toward absolute ruin, thus bringing that future to being. While I also believe the consciousness has much to do with the manifestation of our future, no matter how much humanity could want extraterrestrials to come and share knowledge, advancing us decades in knowledge every week to a bright prosperous future, God's plan to re-establish His kingdom here will not be stopped. He is coming back and that is the main point of revelations. Other than to show the signs of His return and guide those new believing children in the right direction.

I'm not sure what these days and events are in the light of his writings, but I can imagine him watching this all go down. Would make for one hell of a movie, wouldn't it?

edit on 19-3-2011 by Hoosyourdaddyo because: k

I agree, it would make for quite a movie. The accumulative story of humanity will be quite interesting

*edit* I know i've marked myself as being a believer in Christ but I sincerly hope it wont deter anyone from these possibilities. Perhaps it would be due to my lack of scripture, there's a lot that can go along but I tried to keep it short. I am open to all information so please don't be hesitant to interject if you feel it should be said. We should all test our knowledge, if proven false we have the realization and everything to gain from it. ^_^

reply to post by Artanis667


gee i don't know, but hey go back in time and go ask constantine what he had in mind when he started to rewrite and recompile the old texts....

reply to post by Hoosyourdaddyo

So as you know, the Apostle John wrote the book of revelation...

John the apostle didn't write Revelations, it was John of patmos...

Just so you know

reply to post by Hoosyourdaddyo


Cool up-beating thoughts!

What a weird world we live in. I just finished writing this;

Chance, what is chance. Chance, what is life.

Somebody come help me love my dog
The way he loves unconditionally
I can’t seem to do it all by myself
He deserves better than just me
Will these words ever be repeated
What if everything we’ve ever known
Is everything we’ve ever feared
And we’ve been through all of this before
And by now we should know a dog can get it right why can’t we

Hey, if everything we ever fear is by chance-something we may already know something about, why would we ever fear all this could end?

Chance

What is it we are supposed to be doing, and who considers himself to be an authority-among us?

Originally posted by AnotherYOU
reply to post by Artanis667

 

gee i don't know, but hey go back in time and go ask constantine what he had in mind when he started to rewrite and recompile the old texts....

As far as I know, Constantine certainly did alter the beliefes of the "christians" of the time, pretty much where the RC church started out. They used catholisim, the make up and function of their church, to stifle reading of the bible by individuals. At first it was easy because the texts were in different languages but when it was finally translated, they pushed harder to discourage reading the bible yourself. They told their followers what was right and what was wrong. Truths mixed with small lies are incredibly dangerous.

I certainly do not believe anyone has had authority or ability to on a large scale, totally change the meanings, add or subtract from the word's message, and they haven't. Even the new world translation will lead you in the same path, assuming you don't dwell on the strange meanings added and have faith in Love (God).

If there does indeed exist a perfect God, He must have a perfect word and I believe it to be the bible.

reply to post by Artanis667


so the word of god written by men, ok. i can grasp that concept.

the issue is you are still reading their bible, custom fitted to serve their interests.

it would be one thing if you were talking about gnostic text or early christian threads, but no, you are basing this solely on the forgery and watered down version we now know as the bible.

i respect your beliefs, but please spare me from reading that a book written by men is god's word.

unless we all can be god too.

Originally posted by AnotherYOU
reply to post by Artanis667

 

so the word of god written by men, ok. i can grasp that concept.

the issue is you are still reading their bible, custom fitted to serve their interests.

it would be one thing if you were talking about gnostic text or early christian threads, but no, you are basing this solely on the forgery and watered down version we now know as the bible.

i respect your beliefs, but please spare me from reading that a book written by men is god's word.

unless we all can be god too.

I understand what you mean, although I believe the custom fit man has on the bible are their spoken words and selective scriptures out of context. Through this the bible has quite obviously been manipulated for sinister reasons again and again in the past, surly even more so in the future. The forgery and watered down sermons come from that, spoken sermons made by manipulative men. The bible itself is quite complete, or at least in any and all of my experiences coming across percieved contradictions and fallacies. Through my life i've found all of these to be percieved as such through my own ignorance, learning so in time.

I thank you for your respect as I respect yours. It is difficult to believe a word like the bible could have existed for so long and not directly manipulated for man's personal, temporary, worldly desires but I firmly believe the manipulation came through the spoken word of man and not the bible in itself in full context. The masses of christianity do not read their bible and insted listen to sermons which may or may not be true, every sunday.


*edit* I felt this should be added, faith plays a huge role throughout the life of a believer. When you come across something that may make you stumble or fall away from God in the bible, it is best to have faith and pray for the answer than to lose faith over it. As I mentioned previously, i've been at these crossroads and in time have been led to the answers that replaced my ignorance. I know more of these times are to come, misunderstandings due to lack of knowledge but im a stronger person now in faith and will Lord willingly keep myself from sliding back into my old ways because of it.

We will never know everything until all is said and done. We have the capability of comprehension through higher and higher levels of knowledge but here on Earth we're very limited. Until that time, we're to keep faith and persist in the path of Love, Jesus (God) set out for us.

I have to agree with everything AnotherYOU has said so far, especially on the topic of religion.

Only thing I disagree with is that John didn't exist. I'm sure he did and he wrote Revelations just like that one monk spent years writing The Devil's Bible to get across a religious message. John was like Nostradamus, writing about the oppressive regime of the day (in John's time, the Roman Empire who exiled him for his trying to teach of Christianity) but in fancy words and metaphors so as to avoid people killing him for saying such things against the ruling elite but also so that others of like minds would be able to interpret what he wrote and agree while planning their secret uprisings.

Revelations was written as a prediction of the fall of the Roman Empire in the eyes of somebody who wanted desperately for it to end in much the same way Nostradamus and his quatrains was the writing of a guy wanting to see the downfall of the French royalty of his time by using vagueness and "prophecy".

Strange thing is, Christians who aren't open to other ideas dismiss such facts and throw all kinds of scripture and Bible quotes to try and prove you wrong. The Old Testament is a bunch of myths retold with a different set of characters than previously told to fit in with this new religion called Christianity while the New Testament is an age old Greek myth about a son born of a god from Olympus and a peasant virgin girl from Athens turned again into a more contemporary tale for the area and made into "truth" by millenia of Christians who think it's all real and true with the rest of that book being full of anti-Roman propaganda.

To get back on topic though, interesting thoughts. S&F for that.

I like the line of thinking, reminds me of Ezekiel 3 where He is speaking while shut up in the house or even this one below (especially when you think about copper grounds etc.) though there are many more

His body also was like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude.



Brass is an alloy of copper and zinc; the proportions of zinc and copper can be varied to create a range of brasses with varying properties.

Before the throne there was a sea of glass, like crystal. And in the midst of the throne, and around the throne, were four living creatures full of eyes in front and in back.

reply to post by curious7


the issue with the whole interpretation of vision comes with perspective of times and mindset.

a seer looking into the future will not be able to name things he does not know, so he words them around the concepts familiar to him at the time.

some interpret nostradamus references to the "golden calf" as modern airplanes flying above the clouds with the sun shinning on them.

imagine what a creative mind can come up with the book of revelations as theme.

some things are not to be taken literal, but they do have an underlying concept of truth, i admit that.


who hasn't looked at a cannon or any other type of projection system based weapon and seen a trumpet for example...

part of it is mind tricks, but its actually our way of comunicating and understanding things we do not know, we always judge based on association.

Originally posted by AnotherYOU
reply to post by Artanis667

 

so the word of god written by men, ok. i can grasp that concept.

the issue is you are still reading their bible, custom fitted to serve their interests.

it would be one thing if you were talking about gnostic text or early christian threads, but no, you are basing this solely on the forgery and watered down version we now know as the bible.

i respect your beliefs, but please spare me from reading that a book written by men is god's word.

unless we all can be god too.

ETA; I type way too slow.

Hi AnotherYOU. if you don't mind my asking;

Let's put the bible, the koran, and what's the other one? Yeah, the book of mormon too whatever- let's give them what the Library of Alexandria got. Let's take every book and burn it.

If you took up writing, what would you write about? Would it be fiction or non?

If you wanted to leave a message, what would you say in it?

Do you know every word beforehand, or as each sentence gets written down?
What made you decide to write that message?

What made you decide to write, or not to write for that matter?
What we all share in common is we are all aware of each our own individual identity. I know that I am not you, and I didn't get that from a book. I got that from the whatever it is that lives in me.

You've got one of your own, don't you? How would you know, if you didn't know? But you do know, don't you?

Ain't it cool! And you didn't get that from reading any books!

There might be a war in a real heaven right now for your real soul, are you real?

I consider myself a white blood vessel in the body of what we know of our universe. I don't know what I am, but I will stake my entire existence on my entire existence. I love me, and I'm not the only one I know who loves me.

Somebody somewhere loves you too, and you know it.

What do you consider yourself to be- in this grand scheme of things? Again, if you don't mind me asking.

Originally posted by curious7
I have to agree with everything AnotherYOU has said so far, especially on the topic of religion.

Only thing I disagree with is that John didn't exist. I'm sure he did and he wrote Revelations just like that one monk spent years writing The Devil's Bible to get across a religious message. John was like Nostradamus, writing about the oppressive regime of the day (in John's time, the Roman Empire who exiled him for his trying to teach of Christianity) but in fancy words and metaphors so as to avoid people killing him for saying such things against the ruling elite but also so that others of like minds would be able to interpret what he wrote and agree while planning their secret uprisings.

Revelations was written as a prediction of the fall of the Roman Empire in the eyes of somebody who wanted desperately for it to end in much the same way Nostradamus and his quatrains was the writing of a guy wanting to see the downfall of the French royalty of his time by using vagueness and "prophecy".

Preterists believe this same thing, i've spoken with a some people who believe along these lines. I don't quite understand how revelations can fit the fall of Rome though. Especially when it comes to the 70 weeks of Daniel. In addition, when it comes to the trumpet and bowl judgements, it is inconsistant with the historical fall of Rome. Not to mention the fixation of revelation events centering around the situations in Israel, as far as timing and major events go.

Strange thing is, Christians who aren't open to other ideas dismiss such facts and throw all kinds of scripture and Bible quotes to try and prove you wrong.

I don't understand, wouldn't preterists be using the same to prove their point? That's what's been done as far as i've seen, with their addition of "the world" being the world of Rome since it was so large.

The Old Testament is a bunch of myths retold with a different set of characters than previously told to fit in with this new religion called Christianity

As far as I know, the Torah (Tanakh) is the OT. These characters are exactly the same in each from what I know.

while the New Testament is an age old Greek myth about a son born of a god from Olympus and a peasant virgin girl from Athens turned again into a more contemporary tale for the area and made into "truth" by millenia of Christians who think it's all real and true with the rest of that book being full of anti-Roman propaganda.

Jesus fulfilled a multitude and every prophecy of the messiah written in the OT. It is reasonable to assume Lucifer and his followers fabricated stories along the lines of the true messiah in different lands to cause this type of confusion. Ancient Egypt was another that has beliefes along the same lines of Jesus's life.

Jesus fulfilled a multitude and every prophecy of the messiah written in the OT. It is reasonable to assume Lucifer and his followers fabricated stories along the lines of the true messiah in different lands to cause this type of confusion. Ancient Egypt was another that has beliefes along the same lines of Jesus's life.



Beautifully said. I was trying to think how to articulate this, and you definately said what was needed to be said.

I know that there are many who feel that the Council of Nicia (sp?) was a fraud, and the Gnostic gospels should not have been cut out... but I believe that God steered those discussions and left what HE wanted us to have.