Detroit Dangerous???? Pffffftttt Please...

So...

A common bone of contention on the ATS boards and especially in the ATS chatroom (shameless plug) is Detroit. No matter where one says they live, the denizens of the Motor City feel the need to chime in with the same ole' same ole'... The mantra is always "Well, at least you don't live in Detroit...".




Up until today, I bought into this false sense of "badness" that the Detroitians possess. After all, they have such vivid pictures of decay to point to. They have an entirely failed and outsourced industry to blame. They, my dear ATS friends, have street cred...

Well they had street cred... But not any more! That is right Ignorance Deniers: I am here to DEBUNK DETROIT!!!

EXHIBIT "A"

And a little information to help make sense of these numbers:

An analysis of FBI data shows which cities in the United States have the highest overall incidence of crime, relative to the national rate. Below are the 11 U.S. cities with the greatest crime risk, according to an Onboard Informatics analysis of the most recent seven years of FBI crime reporting data. This data includes property crime, such as burglary and motor vehicle theft, as well as violent crime, like murder and robbery. An index score of 100 is equal to the national crime rate, meaning that Memphis, for example, with an index of 361, has a crime rate more than three times the national average.

Source

As a citizen of Atlanta I find myself strangely proud that I can finally look at the Detroit folks and say "Pffftttt... I live in Atlanta!"

Then again, with that said... I am also NEVER going to St. Louis!

Oh, and mods, feel free to move this thread to rant if it's so decided.

~Heff

reply to post by Hefficide


all the real criminals left Detroit and moved to
Seattle.....


just saying...(telling on myself?)

Can't be legit. How is Chicago not on that list? They have more homicides and shootings than Iraq.

Detroit is not the worst US city to be a resident of, however it is still horrid, Detroit has become what is known as an emblem. They are the unofficial representatives of all that is bad in American economics, crime, poverty, etc… Sort of like how it could be described as Sarah Palin is the leader of the Tea Party, just because she is the most well known does not make her the leader of the Tea Party.

It is just the easiest way to collectively attach all of these negative values and indices to just one largely known city. And we call this city, Detroit.

Originally posted by jjkenobi
Can't be legit. How is Chicago not on that list? They have more homicides and shootings than Iraq.

And another urban myth pops it's head up.

Chicago gets a bad rap just as Detroit does.


But honestly...I kind of like that conservatives are scared of Chicago...Please stay away.

reply to post by Hefficide

As a citizen of Atlanta I find myself strangely proud that I can finally look at the Detroit folks and say "Pffftttt... I live in Atlanta!"

Hah, indeed S+F!

I know exactly what ya mean.

Having lived in East ATL area most of the time, I can say that I have heard or awoke to gunfire plenty & sleep w/ protection.

Wild west baby...Detroit debunked!!

First, any place on that list sucks.

Second, stats cant be believed by any stretch.

Third, perceived danger is relative.

Where I am the last crime was a stolen log splitter. Dont ever think there was a mugging or an assault that wasnt just drunken idiots fighting each other for fun. So relative to me just about every other place in the country is suffering ridiculously out of control crime.

Got to add, proud to live in a #hole?

reply to post by MindSpin


and we gladly will, you and yours can have the city that blo-err windy city

and the way you've talked in this and other threads, it seems like your a trolling senator from chicago wearing sheeples clothing haha ( excuse me baa-baa) or perhaps your Rham himself


i jest of course sir.

reply to post by Hefficide


Quick story;

Many years ago I was attending an archery tournament at Cobo Hall. I had been there many times previous to attend concerts but they were just a trip across the border and back, never an overnighter.

Well I can't say exactly where my hotel was as it was indeed many years ago but I decided to take a walk one night to just look at the neighborhood and clear my head for the upcoming shoot. I was stopped by the police walking along in one neighborhood and asked what I was doing there.

I told them that I was a Canadian and what I was doing there and all that, showed them my I.D. and everything. I have to say I was treated really nice by them but the only time that I have ever had a policeman point a weapon at me has been in the States. I guess it is a different culture down there or something, but it has happened a few times.

Anyways, the officers tried to get me to go straight back to the hotel and I started questioning them about why I wasn't allowed to continue my little adventure in the big city. After a few minutes of back and forth banter, none of which was confrontational by either side, I was informed that they were going to take me back for my own safety and if they saw me out again that night, I would be arrested just to keep me safe.

Now whether or not they were serious, I never found out as I accepted their offer and got a ride back to the hotel in the back of the police car and thanked them even though I didn't have a clue as to why I was in any danger. Now again, I was young and ignorant of big cities and the area that are "off limits" to certain colours.

The next day I was in Cobo hall and walking with my friend who was also in the tournament and I commented to him that he was looking really white and asked him if he was OK or just nervous. An elderly gentleman pulled me to the side in the corridor with a look of shock on his face and asked me if I wanted to die.

Apparently he said, talking like that could get one hurt and me being so ignorant didn't understand why when I was not making any sort of racial slurs or anything like that, just asking a question. Well I managed to get home with no scars but I have to say, I have always felt that Detroit was a "bad" place after that experience.

So as to your question "Detroit Dangerous????", I have to answer that in my opinion it must be, unless it has improved in the past 30 years or so.

Then again, I am used to being able to walk wherever the hell I want without fear of anyone no matter the area. Just one persons experience here of course.

reply to post by thisguyrighthere


Well, there is a tongue in cheek quality to this thread. That aside, Atlanta is far from a #hole. Like any city it has its good parts and bad parts. But overall it is a beautiful city in a very beautiful part of the country.

And I am saying this as a person who lived in Nashua for 9 of the first 10 years of my life. In fact the mountain areas here are very much like the mountain areas there. Very similar look and feel. But here we get a lot more warm time to enjoy them.

~Heff

reply to post by tribewilder


Well, I guess any big city should have a disclaimer that it can be very dangerous to people who don't know the city.

I feel perfectly safe in Chicago...because I know where I should and should not be.

reply to post by Hefficide

Detroit was recently caught fudging their numbers when it comes to reporting crimes.

Detroit -- The Detroit Police Department is systematically under counting homicides, leading to a falsely low murder rate in a city that regularly ranks among the nation's deadliest, a Detroit News review of police and medical examiner records shows. From The Detroit News: detnews.com...

source

DETROIT, July 20 (UPI) -- Detroit's new police chief says the city's homicide rate, already the highest in the country, may worsen because crimes will no longer be under-reported. With 216 people slain in the city so far this year, Detroit's homicide rate is already running 20 percent higher than last year. Police Chief Warren Evans warned the statistical growth rate will likely escalate even further because slayings have been under-reported by as much as 20 percent in past years, The Detroit News reported Monday. Read more: www.upi.com...

source

Detroit Didn't Report 100 Murders: Prosecutor

Contrary to FBI statistics, more than 100 Detroit homicides were left off the books last year, Wayne County Prosecutor Kym Worthy told the Detroit Free Press. Worthy said the Detroit Police Department under reported that 306 people were killed in 2008. She said the homicide number is actually 423. The FBI reported this week that murders last year dropped 22 percent in Detroit, from 392 in 2007 to 306.

source

But they say change is coming;

"It usually happens at shift change," Evans said. "Guys come in the afternoon, and there is a backlog of 25 runs. If they don't get to those calls and don't write a report, the crime never gets counted. That's got to change. That's going to change." Read more: www.upi.com...

source



Also
www.myfoxdetroit.com...

www.mlive.com...




I think I remember they had a problem with the Fire Dept. doing something similar with the arson reporting. I'll see if I can find it...

Originally posted by MindSpin
I feel perfectly safe in Chicago...because I know where I should and should not be.

This is what I don't understand. Why should you not be "anywhere" in a city?

Are you saying that in a free society you have restrictions on that? In my opinion, citizens should not be afraid to walk anywhere in a city without fear. A level of awareness yes, as there are always dangers, but to avoid completely is not something that I am used to. Nor do I want to be.

Im calling BS on those crime statistics.


How can it even be possible that Oakland and Los Angeles didn't even make the top ten?


Now I know Atlanta has a lot of bad places, and Memphis is a toilet, and Detroit is and has always been a crime cess pool....but seriously not ONE city from California made the list?


Have these people even been to places like Oakland and Stockton, CA? There are places in Los Angeles county that the SWAT teams wont even go.

Those statistics are based on the total number of crimes in the following categories "Murder/ Man-
slaughter", "Forced Rape", "Robbery", "Burglary", "Vehicle Theft", "Property" and "Aggravated Assault", that are reported to the FBI on the Uniform Crime Reports (UCR).

The report in the original post can and is widely rigged because some police departments report data wrongly or not at all. The FBI can not force a police force to report crimes to them. As an example in 1985 the police in Chicago reported 1,792 cases of forced rape, then in 1990 they stopped reporting cases of Rape on there UCR, so since then no rapes that have occured have been reported on the UCR. I found a questionable website (not linked below) that said it was because there is a special division for rapes in chicago and there investigations are seperate so that is why the police don't put them on the UCR (but they still aren't being reported to tthe FBI)

In 1985 the total rapes for all of illinios was 4,529, which means Chicago accounted for 40% of all rapes in the state. In 2009 there were 3,901 rapes in the rest of the state, which means (if the ratio holds still true) that about 1,560 rapes occured in Chicago that did not get listed on the UCR.

Also look at the ststistics for Detroit.
In 2008 the police reported to the city council the following crimes
Murder and non-negligent manslaughter: 306
Forcible rape: 330
Robbery: 6,115
Aggravated assault: 10,677

Now compare this with what they submitted on the UCR
Murder and non-negligent manslaughter: 42
Forcible rape: 79
Robbery: 596
Aggravated assault: 1200

So until the UCR is manditory or someone does actual comparative crime statistics we'll never really know the truth and last I leave you with the actual comment from the FBI home page on compairing UCR stats from different cities.

Please Note
Figures used in this Report were submitted voluntarily by law enforcement agencies throughout the country. Individuals using these tabulations are cautioned against drawing conclusions by making direct comparisons between cities. Comparisons lead to simplistic and/or incomplete analyses that often create misleading perceptions adversely affecting communities and their residents. Valid assessments are possible only with careful study and analysis of the range of unique conditions affecting each local law enforcement jurisdiction. It is important to remember that crime is a social problem and, therefore, a concern of the entire community. The efforts of law enforcement are limited to factors within its control. The data user is, therefore, cautioned against comparing statistical data of individual agencies.

and then there is also this little quote from the new chief of police in detroit

When he took office in July, Detroit Police Chief Warren Evans said crime figures could rise on his watch as he looked to address regular reporting oversights.

So the new chief knows they are under reporting the numbers to city council, not just on the UCR (the quote was about the above 2008 report to council.

In 2005 (the last year I could find data for all 3 cities online as the newer stuff is not available on the FBI website today)

City Population Murder/ Man-slaughter Rape Robbery Aggravated Assault Total Violent Crime
Chicago 2,873,130 448 0 15,964 17,943 34,355
St. Loius 395,737 9 51 274 779 1,113
Detroit 951,270 42 79 596 1200 1,917

Ok some of you will dispute thos population numbers but that is what was reported on the UCR for 2005. That statistics are calculated based on crimes for 100k people.

Several online sites have stated that Detroit is only putting crimes from the city center into it's UCR as all the outer areas that the gangs control are no longer patrolled so they don't count the crimes there, take that with a grain of salt as I couldn't find any legitimate sources for that info.

The official Detroit police newsletter says that under reporting on the UCR by them "does not appear to be systemic". The city "area connect" web page for Detroit lists them as way above national 100k averages in all area except theft.

In fact lets look at the Detroit report for 2005 to council and the UCR

Murder/ Man-slaughter UCR 42 internal 418 % reported 10%
Rape UCR 79 internal 593 % reported 13.3%
Robbery UCR 596 Internal 7240 % reported 8.2%
Aggravated Assault UCR 1200 Internal 13,143 % reported 9.1%

www.disastercenter.com...
www.mlive.com...
www.disastercenter.com...
www.fbi.gov...
www.camconnect.org...
www.examiner.com...
detroit.areaconnect.com...

Originally posted by tribewilder

Originally posted by MindSpin
I feel perfectly safe in Chicago...because I know where I should and should not be.

This is what I don't understand. Why should you not be "anywhere" in a city?

Are you saying that in a free society you have restrictions on that? In my opinion, citizens should not be afraid to walk anywhere in a city without fear. A level of awareness yes, as there are always dangers, but to avoid completely is not something that I am used to. Nor do I want to be.

I don't have restrictions...I could go anywhere I wanted...it just wouldn't be conducive to a healthy lifestyle

We don't live in a perfect world...you have to be aware of your surrondings true...but you also have to be aware where you are more likely to run into trouble. Now am I saying that if I go into certain parts of the city I will 100% find trouble??? No, but there is a higher probability that I would.

Haven't you ever heard of the "bad part of town"???

Here is something else to consider in your research as to why certain areas may be worse than others.

What do almost all of these cities listed above have in common?





That's right....nearly all of them have a Democrat as mayor.

I am surprised that a few more Detroiters didn't show up to defend the status quo!

Well that and no citizens of St. Louis have weighed in either...

Originally posted by tribewilder
reply to post by Hefficide

 

Quick story;

Many years ago I was attending an archery tournament at Cobo Hall. I had been there many times previous to attend concerts but they were just a trip across the border and back, never an overnighter.

Well I can't say exactly where my hotel was as it was indeed many years ago but I decided to take a walk one night to just look at the neighborhood and clear my head for the upcoming shoot. I was stopped by the police walking along in one neighborhood and asked what I was doing there.

I told them that I was a Canadian and what I was doing there and all that, showed them my I.D. and everything. I have to say I was treated really nice by them but the only time that I have ever had a policeman point a weapon at me has been in the States. I guess it is a different culture down there or something, but it has happened a few times.

Anyways, the officers tried to get me to go straight back to the hotel and I started questioning them about why I wasn't allowed to continue my little adventure in the big city. After a few minutes of back and forth banter, none of which was confrontational by either side, I was informed that they were going to take me back for my own safety and if they saw me out again that night, I would be arrested just to keep me safe.

Now whether or not they were serious, I never found out as I accepted their offer and got a ride back to the hotel in the back of the police car and thanked them even though I didn't have a clue as to why I was in any danger. Now again, I was young and ignorant of big cities and the area that are "off limits" to certain colours.

The next day I was in Cobo hall and walking with my friend who was also in the tournament and I commented to him that he was looking really white and asked him if he was OK or just nervous. An elderly gentleman pulled me to the side in the corridor with a look of shock on his face and asked me if I wanted to die.

Apparently he said, talking like that could get one hurt and me being so ignorant didn't understand why when I was not making any sort of racial slurs or anything like that, just asking a question. Well I managed to get home with no scars but I have to say, I have always felt that Detroit was a "bad" place after that experience.

So as to your question "Detroit Dangerous????", I have to answer that in my opinion it must be, unless it has improved in the past 30 years or so.

Then again, I am used to being able to walk wherever the hell I want without fear of anyone no matter the area. Just one persons experience here of course.

This is a perfect example of how some people don't understand the "culture" of America. I remember a recent gun-related thread from a UK fellow who questioned why guns were needed in the US. I think you have illustrated the need very well I'm glad nothing happened and you got home safe that night.

Luckily my city didn't make the list, but pretty much any big city is dangerous in certain areas/times.

Another walking story - back when I was "getting into shape" i would go for walks at night, usually around 12-1am with a friend of mine. While walking in a slightly shady area of my neighborhood, we pass by two "thugs" at a bus stop, who after about 30 seconds begin to follow us. We go down a side street, into a residential area to see if they followed, which they did. Then we took another left at the next block, with them still behind us.

Both me and my buddy carry, he takes out his FNP, racks the slide, and put it back in his belt. We look back and all we saw was the guys running. I argued with my friend a bit, as you are not supposed to brandish a firearm in that situation, but he had a good point. His thought, was that me and him are both around 6 foot and have a heavy build. These two guys were scrawny little guys. Whatever their plan was, it sure wasn't to beat us up, so they must have been armed with either a knife or gun. He said he rather would just let them know he's carrying, then actually get into a confrontation with them.

Originally posted by Hefficide

I am surprised that a few more Detroiters didn't show up to defend the status quo!

Well that and no citizens of St. Louis have weighed in either...

I am from metro Detroit, and I don't like going down there myself. However I never felt threatened it is just a dirty dismal place. I do go down for the Downtown Hoedown and Wings games.
Area around Hart plaza and Cobo isn't bad.