Teen 'Wolf Pack' Arrested for kidnapping and hanging a boy [he survived] Bullying out of control?

I bet some of you think that the its the USG job to step in...and decide what is right or wrong?

Originally posted by LadySkadi
There is a very fine line between the categories of hazing, boys will be boys, and bullying. Who decides what that line is, when it's crossed and how it's handled?

Since we have grauated to "zero tolerance" there is no one deciding what is right and what is wrong anymore. It is not politically correct. Case in point. A boy in the middle school knocked a breath spray out of the hand of a kid who was spraying it in the eyes of classmates. The sprayer and the kid who was seen using violence to knock it out of his hand got into equal trouble...

That is why we have problems now. Right and wrong are said to be relative. We have been culturally cleansed.

reply to post by sara123123


My point exactly, and thanks for that added perspective~

reply to post by LadySkadi


the world aint what it used to be.

reply to post by Whereweheaded


I know this is off topic but........your avatar is going to give me nightmares tonight!

Originally posted by getreadyalready
My main argument here is, how do we know that the "victim" or the "small" or the "1" was not the guilty party, and the "bullies" were not giving a well-deserved warning or justified retribution?

I see these facts, and they make me think something is amiss:
1. The school asked the "victim" to not return.
2. The "bullies" didn't do any major harm, and their actions were mostly prankster.

Maybe they really were bad kids, a gang, bullies, or just plain mean, and maybe they deserve to be in jail, BUT we can't tell that can we? Because maybe the other kid was a bad kid, and he had gotten away with a lot because he was small, and because he played a good victim, and maybe he was finally getting some just desserts?

I just want to be devil's advocate here and remind us all that things are not so clear cut as a headline, label, or soundbite would have us believe. In most cases, when you get to the bottom of a story, there is much, much more to it!

We don't know for sure, not with one article and one side of the story (interview with the 13 year old) however 2 other pieces of information do not sit well with me: (a) the older teens (7:1) by the way, filmed and youtubed this "attack" and though that seems to be getting more "standard stupid" as we know, it does not show positive for the older (nearly adults) decision making processes and (b) when the mother of the younger boy confronted a parent, the parent told her to go ahead and call the cops. Now, would you (as a parent) risk your child's future with an arrest, if you really believed what your teen was doing was "stand up" in it own right? If you believed that, would you not try to work this out with the parents involved such that none of the "teens" were arrested? Just more food for thought slash Devil's advocate point of view...

Originally posted by getreadyalready
My main argument here is, how do we know that the "victim" or the "small" or the "1" was not the guilty party, and the "bullies" were not giving a well-deserved warning or justified retribution?

I see these facts, and they make me think something is amiss:
1. The school asked the "victim" to not return.
2. The "bullies" didn't do any major harm, and their actions were mostly prankster.

Maybe they really were bad kids, a gang, bullies, or just plain mean, and maybe they deserve to be in jail, BUT we can't tell that can we?

Yes, yes we can. See the bullies had the audacity to videotape the entire situation. Laughing about their treatment of the middle school victim's plight (they were high schoolers). That shows their true nature and it was not some incident of retaliation.

The victim's mother approached one of the bully's parents and they encouraged her to file a complaint with the police.

The police arrested and seized the video evidence and have stated that this was indeed a heinous crime.

The middle school suggested the parents not send the child back, as they didn't have the resources to 100% guarantee such actions would not happen again. They did that to protect themselves from liability.

That seals it up rather well who the assailants and who the victims are in this whole case. Yes?

I just want to be devil's advocate here ...

That's fine and well, but there's enough information in the articles(in thread and elsewhere) and video, to make a rather full assessment of the situation.


X

Originally posted by Whereweheaded
I bet some of you think that the its the USG job to step in...and decide what is right or wrong?

I bet some of X segment of population think that Y action should occur at any given time.


However the people that need to step in are the bullies' PARENTS. If you have raised a high school teen that will gang up and essentially torture a middle school child, then you've been asleep at the wheel regarding your parental duties.

X

reply to post by Le Colonel


I was a member a long time before I was a moderator, and I will always be a member first. However, I do not want to get off-track, off-topic, or too personal. Therefore, I will just state that I do not believe that all bullies are the bad guys. I believe there is a natural need for bullies, and I believe nature creates them for a reason. I believe that by removing all bullies, we mess up the natural balance of things, we eliminate a certain right of passage, we eliminate a growth process that all young people (especially boys) must go through, and we end up raising adults that are incomplete to deal with the "real" world.

You dealt with your bully however you dealt with them, and you grew up, and apparently you are a well-adjusted adult. I dealt with my bullies differently, and in some cases I might have even played the role of bully, but it was for a noble and just cause, or harmless fun.

I get annoyed when we use a broad stroke to condemn all bullies without knowing all the backstory and situation. Sometimes someone that appears to be a bully is actually just an enforcer or a good samaritan.

Originally posted by sara123123

Originally posted by LadySkadi
There is a very fine line between the categories of hazing, boys will be boys, and bullying. Who decides what that line is, when it's crossed and how it's handled?

Since we have grauated to "zero tolerance" there is no one deciding what is right and what is wrong anymore. It is not politically correct. Case in point. A boy in the middle school knocked a breath spray out of the hand of a kid who was spraying it in the eyes of classmates. The sprayer and the kid who was seen using violence to knock it out of his hand got into equal trouble...

That is why we have problems now. Right and wrong are said to be relative. We have been culturally cleansed.

I'm in agreement, 100%. Zero tolerance policy does more harm then good and may in fact be teaching our youth that standing up for "what they believe is right" is not worth the trouble.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by Le Colonel

 

I get annoyed when we use a broad stroke to condemn all bullies without knowing all the backstory and situation. Sometimes someone that appears to be a bully is actually just an enforcer or a good samaritan.

...wow... maybe you should re-read your broad-stroked statements regarding the tampa woman who murdered her children (of which you have little knowledge of the backstory and situation but that didnt prevent you from drawing conclusions and making pro-violence statements)...

reply to post by Wyn Hawks


She didn't bully, she murdered. She also was their mother, and they were children. She was their caretaker, not their peer. What she did was not conducive to them growing up learning some hard life lessons, what she did was prevent them from growing up at all. Apples and Hand Grenades.

Besides, I was pro-violence in the form of retribution on that thread, and I am pro-violence in the form of standing up for one's self in this thread. My stance on violence didn't change, just my stance on which situations need a backstory. The murder of children needs no backstory.

reply to post by LadySkadi


This was common practice at most of the school's I went to.

The experience's made me into the man I am today, a bully-buster, who will not accept crap.

Who will stand up for someone in trouble because I was there at one time.

I did not graduate Junior High School, I survived it, and just barely by my wits and brains.

And then I went into a Christian home school group and I felt odd not being bullied all the time.

It actually made me step forward and begin looking out for other people and I became an effective leader.

Are You "Right-Wing Fringe", or "Left-Wing Fringe" and How Will They Push You

The above thread is about idiots turning you against yourself.

And buried within it somewhere is a story where 15 teenagers tried to kill me and where I outsmarted them.

Law Enforcement got involved and believed me over 15 drug-pushing bullies.

Due to my experiences over my lifetime I have a zero tolerance when it comes to bullies.

Due to my experiences over my lifetime I have a zero tolerance when it comes to drugs.

Due to my experiences over my lifetime I have a zero tolerance when it comes to stalkers.

As far as I am concerned the School Administrator who made this boy leave is a God-damned idiot.

He should have made each and every boy issue a public apology in front of the entire school.

And then expelled them from that school and made it go up to the School Board to force policy.

A zero tolerance, absolute zero tolerance policy, in regards to bullies, and idiot behavior.

After that let them go to Juvenile Detention for the next 10 years.

I bet they sure as Hell will learn about being bullied being made to go through that punishment.

It should even be considered sending them to Juvenile Detention Boot Camp.

Murphysboro Youth Boot Camp


Zero tolerance towards bullies, zero mercy towards bullies, zero acceptance of bullies.

Christian Boot Camp


Let Jesus forgive them because I never will and I will openly go to war on anyone who is a bully.

Especially group bullying or group stalking or even group/mass stupidity.

I love being a bully-buster because I will bully those bullies without recruiting them into my fold.

And I teach those who they bully how to take them down as a single person or unit.

Originally posted by gimme_some_truth
So he is a crybaby because he did not want to be hazed? What?

Hazing is only tolerated bullying by testoterone fueled morons.

Some people just want to play the sports and be a part of the team.

And not have to go through needless nonsense that only causes division.

Originally posted by gimme_some_truth
You talk about him saying that he should have stood up for himself... Are you aware that standing up for yourself does not always mean fighting? Apparently not. If you disagree, just you ask Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Fighting is not the only way, intelligent use of brains and wits mixed with tactics, is more important.

My previous post I included a link wherein I told the story of 15 teengers intending to kill me.

Just prior to that with some of those same boys I had gotten my ass handed to me.

Broken nose, busted lip, black-eye, all because they did not like that I would not "run with them".

They dealt drugs, bullied in medium to large groups, and were basically total screw-ups.

And I let them know exactly what I thought of them on the school bus each and every day.

I stood my God-damned ground until they beat me senseless.

I came home looking like a punching bag which should be retired.

My stepfather told me I needed to stop just standing my ground and become proactively intelligent.

Either talk my way out, or talk my way out with a really big stick, and along the find the man in the middle who I would later become..

Who I became eventually.

My stepfather was a Vietnam era Marine and he tolerated nothing like I emulate of him to this day.

Those 15 teenagers?

I took a chain to school and used it as an intimidation tactic, after school, after having snuck it through school, without anyone aware of it, because I intended to defend myself, no matter what, those teenagers told me for 6 months, that the last day of school they were all getting off the bus and intended to kill me, and I did not trust they would wait until after the bus dropped us all off.

I tried for 6 months to tell teachers, the Dean, Vice-Principal, Principal about these idiots plans.

Each time they were stalking me and got those people first to ass-kiss to them just to schmooze them.

So, knowing how my stepfather thought, and knowing how to deal with it, I finally planned a two-tiered bushwhack.

Go read the thread and the rest of the story.

Basically said though I learned tactics and no one has ever bested me again after that.

Ever.

I became a bully-buster.

And I learned diplomacy, leadership, and skills which last me to this day.

Through growing up under the Art of War, learning all about leadership, many different techniques.

At least 1/2 of those morons ended up in jail, or dead, by their own actions, nothing I did.

The School Administration sent them all to different schools the next year.

Only after pressure from the local married couple who were both Police Officers.

They were a helpful part of the solution fortunately.

I feel zero remorse or loss for those teenagers and I remember each and every boys name to this day.

Originally posted by gimme_some_truth
There is more than one way to handle a bully. Yes, Fighting is one. But not all people are willing to do that. Other people use their heads rather than their fists.... This man you call a cry baby, used his head and it worked....

Running away is best used when in tandem with a bushwhack, ambush, or just leaving.

Without talking smack.

And by basically out-thinking morons fueled by testosterone and a low IQ.

Originally posted by gimme_some_truth
So whether he stood up to them by using his fists or not, he still stood up to them... Shame on you for even suggesting other wise.

I do see where getreadyalready is coming from but I see your point.

And I walk right between both opinions.

Somewhere in the middle is a better answer between both of you.

Divide and Conquer.

Originally posted by gimme_some_truth
Think about this. Fighting a bully may get them to leave you alone... But does it stop that bully from just going after another person? Does it? Sure maybe you are being left alone now, but how can you sleep, knowing that there are others being bullied now?

No, it does not, it only makes them (the bully) falsely believe they won and they feed on false ego.

Originally posted by gimme_some_truth
This person used their head and thanks to him, no one was bullied anymore.... See what I am getting at? Fists may work short term... but the long term solution to violence..... Is not more violence....

edit on 1-2-2011 by gimme_some_truth because: (no reason given)

Agreed 100%.

My story above and in the link was not about violence but using my head through tactics.

I would have never used the chain unless it came to a life or death situation.

And I never had to go there.

Fortunately for them.

Lost this on edit.

Erg. Sorry.

Click here for more information.

What these boys did was despicable. The question to ask is "Why do they feel the need to bully?" Why do people bully other people? They are frustrated. Maybe their home situation involves a bit of emotional abuse, maybe some slapping around, ... or maybe it's a case of parents who don't discipline. Bullying is a symptom of something deeper, a need to get frustrations out.

When I was in school I experienced a few bullies from 1st grade until 6th. Well, let's just say they tried to bully me. Fortunately I was one of the tallest kids in class at the time, so when I made it clear that I wasn't going to let anyone bully me, they laid off me. If one of my friends was getting bullied, they came to me to scare them off. I never had to punch anyone to do it. All I had to do was posture myself properly and give them a look.

In sixth grade, however, I came upon a new type of bully. She was maybe one year younger than me, and about a head taller. She had a companion, a girl who was about half her height. I swear it was like straight out of the movies. I was new to the school, and we were the two tallest girls on campus. She would give me hateful looks, tagged all over one of my favorite jackets, and was always terribly obnoxious. I never understood why she was being so mean. I had done nothing to her, never said anything mean, and we weren't even in the same class together. For some reason she just decided to target me. Maybe it was the battle of the giants and there could only be one, I don't know. Anyway, so after she tagged all over my jacket, my teacher noticed and asked who did it. Eventually it came out that she had done it. He pulled her out of class and told her she would have to take the jacket and get it cleaned for me. She was so pissed off. She gave me the most hateful look.

As I was sitting in class I was thinking to myself "What can I do to get her to stop bullying me??? What is her problem? Do I really have to kick the $#!% out of her? Punch her?" That's when it hit me. I decided to try a different approach. After school while she waited for the school bus with her short friend/co-conspirator, I approached her with the jacket and said "You know what? It's O.K. You don't have to clean it. I'll take it home and I'll clean it myself". Her facial expression went from hateful to confused, to remorseful. She actually apologized! After that day she never bothered me again, and if I remember correctly, I think she may have stood up for me a couple of times during recess. I guess I really surprised her with my friendly, forgiving approach.

Maybe this only works on girls. Hell, maybe this only worked on her,... but it's one way to try to handle a bully problem. When nothing else works, what have you got to lose?

The school did wrong for suggesting the victim not come back. What they should have done is take those boys out of school and investigate the home situation of these bullies. They should have sat them down and asked them some questions about their home life.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by Wyn Hawks

 

She didn't bully, she murdered.

...thats the defining line, huh?... okay, so, when the next batch of school bullies commit murder, you wont be defending their actions via blaming the victim, right?...

Originally posted by getreadyalready
She also was their mother, and they were children. She was their caretaker, not their peer.

...but its okay to beat the crap out of someone as long as you are their peer?...

Originally posted by getreadyalready
What she did was not conducive to them growing up learning some hard life lessons, what she did was prevent them from growing up at all.

...thx for explaining... i'm sure none of us knew those points...

Originally posted by getreadyalready
Apples and Hand Grenades.

...you pick and choose which kind of bullies you approve of and which kind of victims you blame... call it apples and hand grendades if you wanna... i call it deja moo...

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/c0840e5d1e41.gif[/atsimg]

Originally posted by getreadyalready
Besides, I was pro-violence in the form of retribution on that thread,

...that wasnt retribution... what you suggested had nothing to do with the wants and needs of the surviving members of that family and everything to do with your bias that tells you its okay for you and those you deem worthy to be violent but its wrong for everyone else...

Originally posted by getreadyalready
and I am pro-violence in the form of standing up for one's self in this thread.

...except for when it comes to the boy that was beaten up... in your eyes, he's not a victim cuz he mustve done something that warranted being beaten up by bullies...

Originally posted by getreadyalready
My stance on violence didn't change,

...yeah, it did... you're making excuses for the perpetrators and blaming the victims in the philly case after demonizing the perpetrator in the tampa case...

Originally posted by getreadyalready
just my stance on which situations need a backstory. The murder of children needs no backstory.

...i disagree - but - whatever... we all have excuses for our prejudices...

When I was a kid, well, when I was younger than I am now we often fought 1 V 1 and that was that ( get ya little couple of days of fame at school afterwards if you won lol). But as we got older people that lost fights started to come back with 4 or 5 people to get there revenge, and as we got even older the fights eventually stopped and the shooting started. When I visit my hometown now, I see kids as young as 13 brandishing and totting pistols on their waist.

Kids that fight at a young age need to be punished. Let the school punish them, but above all, the parents need to break out the belts and go to town on their @sses. If the problem is left unchecked, somebody else has to pay for poor parenting.

reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas


This problem is becoming epidemic in nature due to a lot of factors, not the least of which is the carnal nature of humans. The deteriorating economic system is contributing to the problems. Drug and alcohol abuse are contributing to the problems. The corrupt entertainment industry is part of the problem. Liberalism is another part of the problem. Do I need to go on? Society is deteriorating at a rapid pace. It won't end well.

reply to post by Whereweheaded


If it were up to me avatars such as the disgustingly evil one you use would NOT be allowed! Can someone please get that foul image off of this website, please?