The Roswelch Incident

I know, I know.. the source is the Sun.. but forgive me please, I only post about one A&UFO thread a year, so look on the bright side, you won't see another one from me til 2012

Figured some of the A&UFO buffs might want to check out the article, and a sidebar contribution from Nick Pope..

thesun.co.uk

EVERY time Huw Lloyd ventures on to the peaks above his farmhouse, his thoughts return to a strange night almost 40 years ago - and a UFO mystery that has never been explained.
Huw, then 14, had been watching television with his two older sisters and a neighbour when their hillside home in North Wales was rocked by a "violent thud" that knocked him from his chair.

Within minutes four police officers were at his front door, asking if his father could drive them into the inhospitable Berwyn Mountains in a farm vehicle.

They said a plane had crashed.

if it come from the sun news paper then its a fake :they make 99.99% of there storys up

reply to post by JacKatMtn


I wanna add, i didnt S&F you because you are a Mod, but because i havent heard of this story before and the Sun isnt so bad. Those types of outlets post stories that MSM wont talk about. Sometimes they are a great source of information and stories.

lol we all remember MIB - those papers are the best source lol...jokes.

But thanks. I'm interested in that metal/debris recovered. The molten steel or metallic substance reminds me of some similar UFO stories, one of them was covered on UFO hunters....

Thanks again

Perhaps you should post more than once a year, it could bring back some quality to ATS

Originally posted by Havick007
Those types of outlets post stories that MSM wont talk about.

Not trying to be negative, but in the UK that paper is part of the MSM. Part of News Corp, part of something that Murdoch uses to sway elections and spread his agendas, etc. They're as bad as most. Not saying the actual incident is fake, but that paper spreads a lot of crap in this country and has caused a lot of damage.

reply to post by Hitoshura


I know Newscorp wuite as you would imagine being from Australia - good old Murdoch.....

It cant all be junk, why else would they write about knowing people can just look it up and research it. Hey i maybe wrong, perhaps the guy was holding a chuck of soldered metal....

Originally posted by Havick007
It cant all be junk, why else would they write about knowing people can just look it up and research it.

No idea. Like I said, not knocking the thread or story at all, just the paper. Might be worth checking out other sources?

reply to post by Hitoshura


Ok ive had abit of a look around, and it seems The Sun isnt the only source of this story. There are quite a few;


www.factfictionandconjecture.ca...

www.disclose.tv...

www.network54.com...

www.theblackvault.com...

There is quite abit of history and information on the incident.....


There are also some government archives that support the reported sightings;


www.nationalarchives.gov.uk...

www.mod.uk...



I'm sure you could have helped and provided some of these links... hope it helps though and adds to the thread

reply to post by JacKatMtn
It's known in the UK as the Berwyn Mountains Incident and a longer list of coincidental events would be harder to find. There was apparently a crashing meteor, earthquake, poacher's lamps and military manoeuvres all happening simultaneously to generate the impression that a UFO crashed. It was a matter of time after that before it became crashed saucer and bodies recovered.

I think the most extensive research has been done by Andy Roberts at Flying Saucery. The incident is largely debunked in the article. There's also a wiki at Berwyn Mountain UFO Incident. A pro-UFO article is here. Also the BBC have a reasonable post over here.

I've got the MOD files (I think?), relating to the search for the object by police and RAF, and will dig them out and post them later if the thread gains interest.

Originally posted by Havick007
reply to post by Hitoshura

 

Ok ive had abit of a look around, and it seems The Sun isnt the only source of this story. There are quite a few;


www.factfictionandconjecture.ca...

www.disclose.tv...

www.network54.com...

www.theblackvault.com...

There is quite abit of history and information on the incident.....

Yup, just been looking too. Have found these links so far :

www.thefreelibrary.com...

www.dailypost.co.uk...

From the first link :

Berwyn Mountains “UFO” mystery deepens

Dec 28 2010 by Steve Bagnall, Daily Post

THE mystery behind the famous Berwyn Mountains “UFO” incident has deepened after a document revealed a major military operation was underway that night. Dubbed the “Welsh Roswell”, on January 23 in 1974 locals reported hearing a huge bang, felt earth tremors and saw a brilliant light in the sky over the Berwyn Mountains.

Now a document from the Maritime and Coastguard Agency has surfaced, which reveals a military operation – codenamed Photoflash – was scheduled for that evening. It involved about 10 military aircraft and a series of powerful flashes across the North Wales coast and Liverpool Bay.

Please read: Posting work written by others.
Going forward, if you post something that is not 100% your own writing or work you must use the EX TAG, post NO MORE THAN 15% of the original (or three paragraphs, whichever is least), and GIVE A LINK TO THE SOURCE MATERIAL.

thanks for posting this ive never heard of this story before ive got some reading to do ~~sounds very interesting

Originally posted by Kandinsky
There was apparently a crashing meteor, earthquake, poacher's lamps and military manoeuvres all happening simultaneously to generate the impression that a UFO crashed. It was a matter of time after that before it became crashed saucer and bodies recovered.

Lemme see if I got this... a 'meteorite' crashs to earth and causes an earthquake, something lights up the sky (poachers lamps ) and the military goes out to investigate?

CLASSIC UFO case. Happened here in Las Vegas too... bright blue 'meteorite', crashed to the ground, witnesses saw a glow over the hill and minutes later helicopters carried something away...

Hmmmm

I've read of this story before but never realised it was so close to Bala Lake.
I was fishing there about Easter time in 1979 or maybe 80 with my dad and a friend.
Whilst packing up to go home, we all noticed a bright light in the sky above us.
We watched for about half an hour as this light made some incredible maneuvers and speeds.
There was no way we could estimate how high it was, or what shape or size.
We got home and tried to logicaly work out what it could be. There was a nearby airbase which we thought may be a test centre for secret missile tech, but other than that we were stumped.
It's only been since the invention of the internet and forums like these that i've found other witnesses to that event that happened that night, and many more just like it in the same area. Must be a hotspot.
(One of my three UFO experiences)

I read a book several years later called 'The Uninvited ' by Clive Harold. An amazing book about a series of unexplained sightings and Close Encounters that happend on the Pembroke coast in the 1970's. A great book for any UK UFO buff.
I've always wondered if these two events were linked.

Incidently I was studying Geology at Uni and happened to visit on a field trip, the exact area the book was written about.
I got talking with a local and slipped a UFO comment into the conversation. He was more than happy to tell me alot of VERY interesting stories about what happened. I had and still have no reason to disbelieve him.

Here are some of the MOD files I promised....

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/48abeff2279c.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/bd7f08ec0ef9.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/274057798c43.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/8801d0956e60.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/57f96552b7c4.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/05d422de72ea.jpg[/atsimg]

They're from the DEFE 24/2045 release. If someone wants the whole file u2u.

Originally posted by Havick007
It cant all be junk, why else would they write about knowing people can just look it up and research it.

It's suppose to be entertainment..........

Nice title ...although it would be spelled "Roswelsh", not to nitpick.

Originally posted by Havick007

+

Originally posted by Kandinsky
reply to post by JacKatMtn

 

It's known in the UK as the Berwyn Mountains Incident and a longer list of coincidental events would be harder to find. There was apparently a crashing meteor, earthquake, poacher's lamps and military manoeuvres all happening simultaneously to generate the impression that a UFO crashed. It was a matter of time after that before it became crashed saucer and bodies recovered.

I think the most extensive research has been done by Andy Roberts at Flying Saucery. The incident is largely debunked in the article. There's also a wiki at Berwyn Mountain UFO Incident. A pro-UFO article is here. Also the BBC have a reasonable post over here.

Interestingly enough. On the Disclose.tv website where someone uploaded the above programme. In the description field, they attached the contents of a forwarded e-mail from Scott Felton of the Conwy UFO Group (CUFOG [North Wales]).

video link

In which the following is said:

Dear UFO Enthusiasts,

I am sending out this account following the outrageous Channel 5 TV documentary on the Berwyn Mountain Incident on Wednesday July 2nd 2008, a programme created by Firefly Productions and part of a series on the UKs closest UFO encounters.

Please pass this on to as many of your fellow UFO enthusiasts as possible. This will go some way to showing just how much the programme was slanted in favour of the debunkers. It should also demonstrate a little the appalling methods used by these people to divert attention away from UFOs and in particular, away from this Berwyn Mountain incident and no doubt others in the series.

I will be ensuring that this information is given to as much of the North Wales population as possible through all channels and especially to the residents of Llandrillo who have once again been fed drivel and treated like idiots. I will be ensuring this too to keep the local populous interested in reporting their sightings to anyone involved with the Wales Fellowship Of Independent Ufologists, spearheaded by veteran Ufologist Mrs Margaret Fry.

Margaret has asked me to advise North Wales residents not to give their sightings reports to anyone not residing in the region and who cannot fully investigate such. She has concluded that often even well meaning people can inadvertently alienate locals and especially Welsh speaking locals. Following the programme, there is an atmosphere of resentment already appearing towards 'outsiders' who rubbish and belittle the
locals.

Anyone who watched it must have been shocked at the degree of imbalance and not with standing the fact that a decision had been taken by the programme's commissioning editor to edit out anything and everything which while not proving the existence of a UFO on the Berwyn Mountain range on January 23rd 1974, would certainly have balanced the content or most probably, would have tipped the balance in great favour of something 'exotic' having occurred that night.

I am personally peeved because I was asked and filmed to demonstrate how all of the debunking literature so far produced was fabricated, the facts twisted and who had lied.

It is an open secret that I have been invited to write a comprehensive chapter in a forthcoming book of a well known British UFO researcher on the Berwyn event. The content is based on documents which I've received under the Freedom of Information Act 2000, some of which, no other investigator has managed to obtain and how I have discovered where exactly on Cadair Berwyn the UFO seen actually rested.

What is significant, is that I have irrefutable proof that the debunking version of events portrayed by Andy Roberts in his "Welsh Roswell" is based on lies, half truths and supposition. I showed some of this to the filming team and whilst filming up on the Berwyn Mountains range, I was able to show how the debunkers have tried to claim that Police, poachers, farmers etc were on Cadair Berwyn and that Pat Evans and her two daughters, Diane and Tina, were mistaken, seeing Police torches surrounding a poacher's lamp when these apparent criminals were stopped and spoken to by the Police.

....

....

The TV programme itself was a litany of blatant lies.

The former Assistant Chief Constable Elfed Roberts though relating his experiences was very conservative with the truth and lied at least once. He lied by saying at one point, that an officer(s) left the commandeered vehicle belonging to Huw Lloyd's parents and flashed torches about. This was a pathetic attempt to try and prop up Andy Roberts's assertion that Mrs Evans saw Police torches. Huw Lloyd the teenage farmer at the time, was filmed and testified that at no time did any Police officer leave the vehicle to look around nor, did any use of torches take place. That was edited out and the Police officer
given free reign to state otherwise. It was suggested that only two police officers were present at that point; there was at least four, possibly five. Huw could not recall exactly, but certainly more than three and none was local or known to him.

Andy Roberts stuck to his version of events, despite the fact that his poachers who were not poachers at all, stated that they had packed in lamping by 9.15 pm. The Police were inspecting their vehicle partly blocking the track up the mountain at 9.20 pm. Please note, that Pat Evans and daughters did not arrive anywhere on the range until 10 pm that night. 45 minutes after the poachers departed. So whatever she saw, it was not a poacher's lamp. Further to that, she has constantly
been portrayed as being somewhere near to the poaching and Police search activities.

The truth is, that Pat Evans was deliberately subverted by North Wales Police and that is why she ended up on the B4391, and four miles from the Police search above Llandrillo, and thus four miles from any headlamp, torch or anything even if there when she arrived at her vantage point..

The Police were searching for a suspected plane crash on Cadair Bronwen Mountain above Llandrillo, based on reports of an explosion sound accompanying the earth tremor rumblings and then seeing lights above the village over the ridge known as Cefn Pen Llety. Debunkers have continually tried to suggest that events occurred on Cadair Berwyn Mountain where Mrs Evans and her daughters observed the UFO.

I will reiterate, that at no time whatsoever was any Police officer or civilian at large on Cadair Berwyn and that there was absolutely no connection between the UFO and Llandrillo village. Also, no one in Llandrillo could possibly see anything on Cadair Berwyn or even Cader Bronwen. Both mountains and peaks are obscured by lower hill slopes and ridges.

I would advise readers that the principle reason that Pat Evans now spends most of her time in Tenerife, was to escape the attentions not of debunkers, but of UFO buffs who totally disregarded her testimony and privacy, often knocking unannounced on her front door late at night and even arguing with her that she was lying, simply because her true experience did not fit the mindset of the UFO enthusiast.

Pat Evans was subverted by North Wales Police because she did not get through to them offering her medical assistance until just before 9.30pm. At 9.10 pm, the Police had already opened a major incident log and Police officers were in Huw Lloyd's yard. Yet, when Pat Evans spoke to the Police, she was not directed from Llandderfel (where she lived) to Llandrillo. She was given no idea of where to go to assist and by her own volition, took the B4391 to gain a vantage point. This action was premeditated and supports other actions to deter civilian interest in events that night.

Thus, she stumbled upon the UFO purely by chance.

The irony here, is that Huw Lloyd has testified that Police Officers from Bala and from Barmouth too (over an hour's drive in those days), were in his yard at 9.10 pm, and had to pass Llandderfel where Pat Evans lived to reach Llandrillo and the route onto Cadair Bronwen. One of those Policemen was Elfed Roberts. In that documentary, he must have known that Pat Evans was treated in this way.

The Police did not tell Mrs Evans to go to Llandrillo because her assistance was unwanted.

Elfed Roberts along with the other Policemen present saw nothing on Cadair Bronwen, though all including Huw Lloyd saw for a few seconds, a bright white light south towards Cadair Berwyn which lasted a few seconds and then subsided. Huw Lloyd testified to that, but that fact was omitted from the programme, and Elfed Roberts chose not to mention it!

Bearing in mind that the earth tremor which occurred that evening and which led locals and Police to believe a plane had crashed above Llandrillo, was at approximately 8.40 pm, twelve hours would pass before it was light enough to continue any search the next day. In 12 hours, the Civil Aviation and Military Authorities would know if an air craft was missing, yet the search continued aided by, a three man search and rescue team from RAF Valley in Anglesey.

....

....

The Police requested search assistance and the RAF sent a three man team which arrived late on the evening of the tremor and sighting.

In the programme, Andy Roberts played down that military presence and suggested that military vehicles seen in Llandrillo by locals created the belief of a military presence and covert activities.

There was a three man team, in ONE vehicle.

Incidentally, all the details of every search and rescue operation conducted by the RAF Valley team for 1974 are missing. As far as the MoD is concerned, no RAF personnel was involved in an operation requested by the Police at any time in 1974.

I also presented to the film crew evidence that steps were taken to deny the use of civilian mountain rescue enthusiasts who knew the Berwyn Range intimately. Such had been used before but not on this occasion. Mr Roberts in his Welsh Roswell has insisted that the locals have it wrong and that they confused matters with large military presences at military air crashes in 1972
and 1982. Such a presence giving credence to the UFO fraternity claim that soldiers sealed off the mountain range in order to extract a crashed alien vehicle.

I could concur a little with the 1982 event, but I believe the 1972 event was invented to enhance the case against the locals. I believe this because I have in my possession a full listing of all military air crashes in North Wales in 1972 and I can state that no air craft crashed in that year anywhere near the Berwyn range. Three were on Anglesey and one near Llanbedr air field on the west coast. In debunking literature, reference is made to this 1972 crash and this has often been repeated, but not one sceptic promoting this has so far published details of the craft, its occupants, airfield of origin etc. Nothing.

I also have details of all military and civilian air crashes for near surrounding years and again, nothing crashed anywhere near the Berwyn Range. In 1968 there was a crash near the summit of Cader Bronwen with several fatalities. Mr Roberts also attempts to elaborate the debunking case by suggesting that the air crash in 1982 involved a plane carrying top secret gear.

That is absolute rubbish. I have a full account of the event from the military and the pilot was a simple lone student flyer on a routine sortie in a training plane. I have the crash map reference number and details of the three farmers who received compensation from the MoD for damage to land during the text book recovery operation.

Indeed, Huw Lloyd's father escorted the American pilot's parents to the crash site at a later date.

As regards the earth tremor that night. It was quite violent. However, the programme tried to give credence to Jenny Randles and her earth light theory by overtly moving the epicentre of the quake 9 miles, to make it appear under Cader Bronwen. That is a blatant lie to the viewing audience.

Earth lights if they exist, would occur on the stress points of the fault lines. The epicentre of the quake was 5 - 7000 metres below Bala itself. Firefly editorship moved this to directly below Cader Bronwen to coincide with Jenny's theory. Even the British Geological Survey which is involved in the official cover up of this event, knows the epicentre point and does not deny that.

Yes, all the big guns were dragged into this documentary to put down interest in the event. Ron Madison engaged the RAF to overfly the range to search for a meteorite impact crater - try and get the photos.

The programme claimed the team was there for four days, yet the next day, the BGS arrived having confirmed that an earth tremor had occurred. Ron Madison and associates carried on looking for a meteor impact crater despite confirmation that the explosion heard was linked to an earth tremor. That though didn't stop there. The three man RAF team which officially ceased its search just after 2 pm, was then seen on Cader Berwyn later that day.

Of course the programme played down the search and rescue presence as officially, it did not take place.

As regards the guest appearance of Dr Roger Musson, well, what can I say? I have, just two days before the airing of the programme, received documents from the British Geological Survey following a formal complaint and internal investigation conducted by the Director of that organisation. Roger Musson is a personal friend of Andy Roberts, and guards the records regarding the Bala earth quake with a zeal unheard of. Much of Andy's debunking literature is based on documents purportedly held by the BGS. Roger Musson has obstructed me for two years in my getting access to those BGS documents. And why?

Why indeed? I can assure readers of this, that those BGS documents do not show Police, poachers lights etc in the same small area of mountain side where Pat Evans saw them as claimed by Andy Roberts. Any references are on Cader Bronwen, miles from Pat Evans's position on the B4391 road.

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....

Mrs Evans must have had exceptional eyesight to see a non existent home made hunting lamp four miles away along with, Police torches - simple two cell affairs in those days. With Roger Musson guarding the documentary evidence that Andy Roberts has enhanced, there has been little chance thus far of getting to the truth.

Andy Roberts cannot now stand by the debacle of a debunking exercise he has written and published as to do so would show an unprecedented arrogance and contempt for genuine witnesses involved in a genuine event. To continue to stand by that false literature is to call the hunters liars, Huw Lloyd a liar and the Evans family liars amongst others.

The North Wales edition of the Daily Post ran a story about gamekeeper Geraint Edwards on July 2nd the same day as the programme aired. It meant nothing to me at the time, but seeing the programme made me realise that the quotes in the newspaper article by Geraint and Elfed Roberts the ex cop were identical to the wording used in the programme. So, someone had given access to the Daily Post to the programme content in advance of the airing a leak, by accident or design.

Yet I was specifically asked by the filming team representatives not to discuss the filming until the show aired.

Of course, the input from the former gamekeeper and also the camcorder shots taken in 2000, had no bearing whatsoever on the subject of a 23rd of January 1974 UFO incident. They were a poor attempt to show some input by witnesses as if coming from pro UFO people. No pro UFO people were given air time on that programme.

My input simply showed that the opposition to the UFO presence could not be allowed to be shown as incorrect or blatantly false. I demonstrated this in great clinical detail and then an editorial decision was taken to erase that input.

This is only the tip of the iceberg. Naturally Firefly got only snippets of information from me but it was enough. I can't prove an alien craft was on the slopes of Cadair Berwyn in 1974, but I can prove that most of the material used for years to debunk it is false. The sceptics have simply relied on apathy to get away with this and obstruction by friends and friends of friends.

This is my personal opinion of the programme which has now aired. I have been informed that another UFO enthusiast was approached about the South Wales Welsh Triangle and after some information was supplied, Firefly simply did not contact the guy again. I knew this, and on his behalf, sent several emails and text messages to Firefly asking them nothing more than to get in touch and inform the guy where he stood. Nothing. No acknowledgement to me or contact between them and the said
Ufologist.

Person linked to the forthcoming Warminster coverage are now gravely concerned about how their input will be portrayed. If however, the remaining documentaries are balanced, it will make viewers suspicious that concerted efforts have been made to quell interest in the Berwyn Mountain UFO event.

What do you guys make of the e-mail?

Here's a relatively new documentary on the Berwyn Mountain incident made by Richard D. Hall:

Yo Retro,

I was going to PM you back but decided to open post
(others -see my above post)

Glad you bought the book. I think I may order another copy. It's been a long time since i've read it.
I guarantee once you have read it you will driving down to Pembroke to see Stack Rocks and stare for hours with binoculars!!
I've read quite a bit recently about how some of it was a hoax.
Apparently one of the farmers recently admitted that he dressed in some silver fire suit and scared a couple of locals. (there is a video of his interview somewhere but i cant find it. Plenty of info if you google)
Because of this admission, it was then blanket decided that it was all a hoax. However, the farmer said he only did it because of the other reports in the area of UFO landings and figures in silver suits and was having a laugh.
as far as i am aware non of the other reports were debunked.

As for the lads stories.
Basically from what I remember (20 years ago this was told to me) they witnessed the what they said were gold suited figures in the middle of the night, enter their house. The rooms were lit up with bright light. They saw them from the top of the stairs. Then their Dad woke and and witnessed it, but as he went downstairs with shotgun in hand, the hole thing ended and the figures and light disappeared except the TV and radio were both on. They said the weird thing was the TV had been broken for a while.
They didnt say if it was reported or not, but they did say there was lots of ufo activity around the area at the time (as per reported in the book)
Usualy if someone told you a story like that your BS detectors would go up! But when these lads told me this story, they were visably shaken. many years after the event.