Is the Welfare State Inevitable?

This is just a question I think about from time to time. I know most folks here are against the welfare state in general. In it's current form, I don't like it either.
But is it inevitable?

Years back, I read a little sci-fi book called Commune 2000 AD by Mack Reynolds. Nothing outstanding, but an entertaining read.

In it, a very large percentage of the populace were on welfare, totally supported by the Government. This was necessary, however, due to a combination of increased population and a reduced job pool. The job pool had been drastically reduced from the effects of outsourcing and automation, and there literally weren't enough jobs in the country to employ even half the population. It was a matter of support the unemployed or millions starve.

It's just a story, I know, but in the decades since I read it, I've seen the population growing, and more jobs being automated or outsourced. The more technology advances, the faster it continues to advance. Things are getting more automated and pre-fabricated with the result of needing less people to accomplish the same work, and that's only going to increase with more tech advances.

We're all aware of how many jobs have left the country in recent years. This just further reduces the available jobs. When added to the jobs lost to automation, and compared to the population, I see things moving towards the scenario in the book.

So do you think that we could end up in a similar situation? Do you think if things continue unchanged we will end up in the mandatory welfare state? That's pretty much where I see things going unless some big changes are made.

The welfare state is unsustainable economically. The limited welfare state we currently have for even this relatively brief period of time is always struggling to keep its head above water since its beginning and it's only going to get worse.

Slave labor under the gov on the other hand can work economically. Until people rebel anyway.

reply to post by thisguyrighthere

There is that. Unless something happens that makes production of everything ridiculously cheap, there's no way a Government could afford so massive an expediture.

In that case, I see lots of unpleasant chaos ahead as more and more people find that there is no job for them.
The population will continue to grow, and jobs will become more scarce. That, too, is unsustainable.

No, it's not inevitable, nor, as thisguyrighthere said, is it sustainable. Revolution of mind and spirit is what we need. Of the finanacial systems that, to be honest, no one but the financiers cares about or needs.

It's really time to stop listening to the blowhards with their huge agendas who keep telling us what we need and what we want (translates to what they need and what they want), to buckle down, make some sacrifices, and take back what we want this world to be.

Produce and support locally, don't stand for their credit systems and let them control every aspect of your life, don't feed into their agendas...their wars, their cheaper labor needs, their excuses about why things "have to be: this way," by supporting them in any way. It's hard work to figure this out and sometimes you have to give some things up to get there, but when faces with the alternative? Do it now rather than later.

The problem with all this is that people don't seem to be willing to change or sacrifice. Hell, they can't even agree on a common goal, never mind take action on it, to get to where we need and want to be.

They like what they have too much...until it isn't anymore. And therein lies the key...the people who reach the place where it isn't anymore? They get it. The ones who aren't there or were never there won't get it until they do. Too bad by then it will be too late.

Socialist/Communist economies can be good if they're run by good people.
If the wealth is actually DISTRIBUTED instead of hoarded and/or poorly invested, then everyone could be happy.

The problem is, all forms of government depend on human nature, and in the long run that's a losing bet.

Originally posted by ~Lucidity
The problem with all this is that people don't seem to be willing to change...

That's the crux of the biscuit right there, isn't it?
It's all well and good to say "we need to do this and that" and "this is how we could change it", but if the majority doesn't actually do it, you're just whistling in the dark.

Originally posted by DeReK DaRkLy


Socialist/Communist economies can be good if they're run by good people.
If the wealth is actually DISTRIBUTED instead of hoarded and/or poorly invested, then everyone could be happy.

The problem is, all forms of government depend on human nature, and in the long run that's a losing bet.

That's based on the assumption that all people have equal ability, which they don't. Distribution of wealth is simply taking from each according to their ability, and giving to each according to their need. Not a kind of system that will work very long, only as long as those with ability put up with it.

Human nature is not a losing bet. Humans do great things; skyscrapers, air planes, medicine, raise children, grow food. Government nature, and the concept 'for the greater good', hard to find any tangible great things done.

That said, the welfare state is here. It is inevitable as long as the have's are willing to participate. Once the government runs out of people to loot, their will be nothing to give to poor people.

Government nature, and the concept 'for the greater good', hard to find any tangible great things done.

reply to post by BenIndaSun


You're overlooking the obvious:
Governments ARE people. Nothing more, nothing less.

Personally, I think that the welfare state is doomed to fail.

Welfare and other social programs that may have been designed with good intent are misused by the people and mismanaged by the politicians.

If you look at welfare, the concept is good but the implementation has been a disaster. Instead of a helping hand in a time of need, it has become a fall back position for those that lack initiative. (I'm not slamming everyone on welfare, just those that can't seem to live without it).

Welfare should provide short term assistance for those that fall on hard times. After the short term there should be mandatory job training and/or work. If you don't want to work, then you don't get welfare.

Social security is another example of government mismanagement. If the social security money collected had been invested( like a real retirement fund) we wouldn't be in the situation that we are in today. Soon, payout from social security will exceed the amount that is collected. The famous lock box that politicians refer to is just filled with IOUs. There is no money in it. The money was spend on various programs because the politicians can't keep their hands out of anyplace they can get cash. The only fix is either reduced benefits or extend the age at which people can claim benefits.

My opinion is that government cannot manage social programs for the long term benefit of the people Therefore the welfare state is doomed.

Originally posted by subject x
This is just a question I think about from time to time. I know most folks here are against the welfare state in general. In it's current form, I don't like it either.
But is it inevitable?

Years back, I read a little sci-fi book called Commune 2000 AD by Mack Reynolds. Nothing outstanding, but an entertaining read.

In it, a very large percentage of the populace were on welfare, totally supported by the Government. This was necessary, however, due to a combination of increased population and a reduced job pool. The job pool had been drastically reduced from the effects of outsourcing and automation, and there literally weren't enough jobs in the country to employ even half the population. It was a matter of support the unemployed or millions starve.

It's just a story, I know, but in the decades since I read it, I've seen the population growing, and more jobs being automated or outsourced. The more technology advances, the faster it continues to advance. Things are getting more automated and pre-fabricated with the result of needing less people to accomplish the same work, and that's only going to increase with more tech advances.

We're all aware of how many jobs have left the country in recent years. This just further reduces the available jobs. When added to the jobs lost to automation, and compared to the population, I see things moving towards the scenario in the book.

So do you think that we could end up in a similar situation? Do you think if things continue unchanged we will end up in the mandatory welfare state? That's pretty much where I see things going unless some big changes are made.

I see me in a virtual reality habitat, trekking the Amazon from the comfort of some hydro immersion pod. I am in the Matrix. I am not sure I am any more comfortable with that scenario but I feel myself being carried there. Addicted to technology and imagining even more thrilling experiences I can have from a couch.

I think I am trying to see our glass half full but you bring up some valid causes for concern.

Overpopulation is definitely, ultimately a killer and our most dangerous condition right now

Forcing me to scratch my head in wonder..what is with these nut job Christian Conservatives et.al. hating on gays, interfering in a womans right to choose, even discouraging birth control?
The very same elements senselessly encouraging unfit, destitute and impoverished women and even young children to carry every early conception to term will turn their backs when the mother needs welfare.

Sorry. No help for you.
What do you think this is? A welfare state?

People would not need welfare or help if an honest and hard days work was enough to feed them.
It isn't. However if food is bought in bulk, wholesale it might be. Some attempt to do this for them would be humane and what are we if not that?

What is inevitable is with an exponential population growth we will amplify the already rampant threats to trees, bees, fresh water, energy, basic infastructure and wetlands. Jepordizing our survival as a species here on Earth. Rather than wring our hands we might get to work. Fixing some of these things can provide jobs.
The rest will require news ideas and innovation which we have no shortage of.
We HAVE "too many chefs in the kitchen" as we say and everyone is rowing the boat a different direction to steal another phrase. I am confident once we decide what direction we are going we will go there.

Ever hear the adage..give a man a fish and he will eat today...teach a man to fish and he eats for a lifetime?
In many ways we are moving toward a path where the independant fisherman will be obsolete.
All the fish will be harvested by corporations. This will provide "jobs" within the giants and this will somehowmake it right. Suddenly we are all at the mercy of corporations known for destroying innovation that decreases their profit margin, abusing employees endangering the public. Capitalism needs oversight, cohesion and some minimum regulatory protections in place.

We talk about job losses to China -Donald Trump is all offended by being nice to China. We owe China money. We have been buying products made in China for years. WE LOVE, Patronize and support WALMART. Huckabee protects, defends, supports Walmart.
WALMART buys 85% of their products FROM CHINA.

You keep hearing strict US regulations forced our poor corporations to send those American jobs overseas.
Yeah right...Could it be the dollar an hour labor?
Has the consumer seen the profit on corporations making this savings by taking it overseas? Where do you suppose it went? Investors made a little but CEO's and the rich got filthy rich...literally.

If these manufacturing jobs were brought home, and the companies forced not to treat their US employees as dispensible commodoties, but as human beings with health issues, families to feed and mortages to pay then they might deserve our American consumer dollars.

Otherwise I don't see how we can participate in our own demise by shopping at places like Walmart.
For a few extra pennies we are selling out our own countries wealth and prosperity...to China.

Obama doesn't care if the citizens of the U.S. have a place to sleep or anything to eat. He only cares about freeloading in the Black House for another two years. He will continues to spew his lies to the unsuspecting and will say anything to benefit himself and his rich evil friends.

Some good responses here. Thanks for replying.

I agree that a welfare state is financially unsustainable. So then, what's to be done when we have more people than jobs by a large margain? I can see this happening, and it can only increase as tech advances.

reply to post by subject x


I think the only thing that can realistically happen is people kill each other when the world gets overpopulated.

reply to post by subject x


If we continue to fight wars and have men getting their body parts blown off who is going to take care of these men (and women) when they come home and have a hardtime getting employment?

Some peoples welfare should mean something to us. We should care and we should help.