Revelation; Babylon's Wake

Originally posted by Maymunah
Revelation 2:13
I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name...

So according to the Bible...the beast's is seated in a church; thus the Harlot her self must be a church/ or religion right?

We need to distinguish between the church and the city.
That verse in ch2 doesn't mean that the church at Pergamum is the seat of Satan; it means that the city of Pergamum is the seat of Satan.
As usual, it's very important to look at the context. These couple of verses are about the problem of persecution. John is saying sympathetically- "Yes, of course you're going to be persecuted, you live right next door to the headquarters of the persecutors".
The usual assumption is that the "seat of Satan" is one of the many temples in Pergamum. My personal preference is that it means the famous temple dedicated to "Rome and Augustus", because this would have an association with the persecuting power, which would give some point to the comment.
I covered that angle in The seven churches have been warned (pt1)

At the same time, though, there are still good reasons for connecting the Harlot with religion.
The "cup of abominations" has to be something to do with idolatry.
Also, in the Old Testament, there's a whole string of passages in which God's people are compared with an unfaithful wife, and the Harlot is just the latest in the series.
The closest model is Jeremiah ch4 v30;
"What do you mean, O desolate one,
what do you mean that you dress in scarlet,
that you deck yourself with ornaments of gold,
that you enlarge your eyes with paint?".
This is part of his description of Jerusalem.
The next verse mentions a "woman in travail", which calls to mind the "woman in heaven" in ch12.
It's almost as though the woman in heaven and the Harlot have divided up Jeremiah ch4 vv30-31 between them, taking half each.
I covered this angle in Harlot Babylon; "The other woman"

reply to post by DISRAELI


I see what you are saying..but Jesus is specifically talking to 7 churches, not the cities they dwell in. Satan has always been known for being head of the worldly dominion(s) even in the wilderness he tries to tempt Jesus by offering him the kingdoms of the world. I believe Jesus is giving the believers of that time and us (the readers) a major clue as to where Satan now sit's, if we pass this by then we may miss the meaning of the harlot and beast all together.

The more I read it all, the more I see the Catholic church standing out and of course her daughters. I don't want to offend anyone who IS Catholic, but it almost just seems blatantly obvious that she is the Harlot and the beast who carries her is man, not God. Simple to me.

What do you think?

Originally posted by Maymunah
Jesus is specifically talking to 7 churches, not the cities they dwell in.

Yes, but that doesn't affect the point I was making.
The verse does not say "you are the seat of Satan".
It says "the place where you are living is the seat of Satan".
Again I say to you "Look at the context"; "you hold fast my name and you did not deny my faith" is praise, not criticism.
He is addressing the church of Pergamum and telling them that they are living in a city which is the seat of Satan.
It's like writing to a group of anti-communist campaigners in Moscow, during the communist era, and pointing out that that they're living close to the Kremlin and KGB headquarters.

As for the question of the Catholic church; I was looking at that issue on the "supplement" page of the attached thread;
Harlot Babylon; "Twinned with Rome"
Amongst other things, I think the popular theory is over-simplistic.
As soon as people start thinking that God's enemies are "that lot over there", they relax into smugness and complacency about not being part of God's enemy themselves, and they feel that lets them off the hook of critical self-examination.

Originally posted by DISRAELI

Yes, but that doesn't affect the point I was making.
The verse does not say "you are the seat of Satan".
It says "the place where you are living is the seat of Satan".
Again I say to you "Look at the context"; "you hold fast my name and you did not deny my faith" is praise, not criticism.
He is addressing the church of Pergamum and telling them that they are living in a city which is the seat of Satan.
It's like writing to a group of anti-communist campaigners in Moscow, during the communist era, and pointing out that that they're living close to the Kremlin and KGB headquarters.

True! So have done any study in depth then of the city Pergamum? I had read sometime back somewhere that they were the headquarters of medicine? I still hold that Jesus is giving the reader some kind of clue as to where Satan sit's. Or what he is about, among all the other clues in the Bible. I don't like using that word "clue" with reference to the Bible, because I know it's no a riddle to be figured out, it's all there so to speak, we just need to really pray for God to shed understanding on the things we don't understand. And it helps to talk with other believers too, yes?

As for the question of the Catholic church; I was looking at that issue on the "supplement" page of the attached thread;
Harlot Babylon; "Twinned with Rome"
Amongst other things, I think the popular theory is over-simplistic.
As soon as people start thinking that God's enemies are "that lot over there", they relax into smugness and complacency about not being part of God's enemy themselves, and they feel that lets them off the hook of critical self-examination.

edit on 27-3-2011 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)

You are so right about this. I even felt myself sit back and relax at times when considering it's all the Vatican or Catholic Church. However, that said, I do not think they are correct, and it's obvious at times.So I won't rule them out to having some connection to the Harlot. When my headache passes I'll go read the other posts you supplied. Thanks for discussing this further. God Bless.

Originally posted by Maymunah
True! So have done any study in depth then of the city Pergamum? I had read sometime back somewhere that they were the headquarters of medicine? I still hold that Jesus is giving the reader some kind of clue as to where Satan sit's. Or what he is about,

You will have read that one of the temples of Pergamum was dedicated to Aesculapius, the god of healing. Some people pick up the point that there was a serpent in his imagery.

In my mind, the message is that Satan is partly "about" persecution.
The key point is that Satan is "the Accuser" (ch12 v10). This is partly about his rask of accusing people for their sins. But the business of persecution also involves accusation. People give information to the authorities, the authorities press charges. So persecution of Christians is vey much of the essence of Satan's nature, as seen in Revelation.
Ch12 is the story of the Atonement, the way that destroys Satan's power to bring an accusation for sin, and how his resentment of that leads him into pursuing the people of Christ aggressively and creating the Beast as an instrument of persecution.
Jesus is then set against him, in both kinds of accusation, as the "faithful witness" for his people.

reply to post by DISRAELI


Spot on. Satan is and always has been the accuser most definitely! Also he is the source (IMO) of the fall of mankind with the incident in the garden. But also and too..we can't be like Adam and blame the woman or the woman who blamed the serpent, we also have to realize our flaws with respect to God and as Apostle Paul say's "the war in our members" We may find ourselves doing the very things we hate the most..you know? But it's vital that we recognize our own disobedience to God and we our own sin; this is what Jesus' entire mission was about, so that we now have an advocate to repentance.

I got a little sidetracked...I know, but certainly it's all part of the bigger picture.

Do you think Satan can still accuse mankind before God? Considering he is cast out and Jesus stands at the right hand of God?

good good post i agree with 99% of what OP had stated.

I would like to add isiah 58 to me that pretty much sums up who is with or against god. read the whole focus on 5 and 6


Isaiah 58
1Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins.

2Yet they seek me daily, and delight to know my ways, as a nation that did righteousness, and forsook not the ordinance of their God: they ask of me the ordinances of justice; they take delight in approaching to God.

3Wherefore have we fasted, say they, and thou seest not? wherefore have we afflicted our soul, and thou takest no knowledge? Behold, in the day of your fast ye find pleasure, and exact all your labours.

4Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high.

5Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the LORD?

my thoughts( here he is saying this what you are doing and it is wrong)

6Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?

my thoughts (here he is saying this is what you are suppose to be doing)

7Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?

8Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the LORD shall be thy reward.

9Then shalt thou call, and the LORD shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity;

10And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noon day:

11And the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not.

12And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.

13If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

14Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

my thought (notice 7-14 are all contingent on obeying what was said in 6 and conversely not doing 1-5)

Originally posted by Maymunah
Do you think Satan can still accuse mankind before God? Considering he is cast out and Jesus stands at the right hand of God?

"They have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb"; Revelation ch12 v11.
I would say that he cannot accuse those who have taken refuge in the atoning death of Christ.
If their sins have been forgiven, no charge can be laid against them; "Who shall bring any charge against God's elect?"- Romans 8v33.

However, not everybody has taken that refuge. The accusing power is mortally wounded, but not yet dead ("his time is short"- Revelation ch12 v12)

reply to post by jonathannas0187


Thank you for bringing us that important quotation.
Yes, this is the "obedience, not sacrifice" theme. The way they treat fellow-men more important than ceremonial observance.
There's another good passage on the same theme in Isaiah ch1, which I've quoted in this series more than once;
"Who requires of you this trampling of my courts?
Bring no more vain offerings...
Remove the evil of your doings from before my eyes...
Seek justice, remove oppression, defend the fatherless, plead for the widow"- Isaiah ch1 vv12-17
I see that verse about "trampling on my courts" as one of the echoes found in Revelation ch11 v2

reply to post by DISRAELI


i think you can (this is me personally) take Isaiah and apply it to reasons why for the new testament. It was/is very clear that the Aaronic (might be wrong about that name)priesthood wasnt doing what it was mandated to do. It also lends much credebility to why Jesus called the Pharisee the children of the devil (actually he said they were doing their father the devils work in John the gospel)

edit sorry about this tangent forgot what the OP was originally about

I view it kinda 2 ways and also believe one can take up either its there choice. One leads to life the other to death (Book of Hebrews) you can either choose light or you can choose the darkness. This world in its apathy has chosen Darkness. If it works for you great but remember all things being equal if you spend your corporeal life in darkness you will also spiritual life in death and vice versa. Jesus made it clear one cant serve 2 masters. It doesnt take a messiah to know thats true its just logic.

Now in the same breath I am not saying this is how it will (or shall) be even. For I believe that the apocalypse is not a time to fear but a rebirth if you will. A cleansing of the reptiallian brain and an awakening of the true self. I believe the term apo in greek mean to become. I am not sure of calypse. I am thinking maybe opposite of eclipse like a lifting of the veil so to speak.

And just to add before I forget for those who say you cant be perfect like Christ I will call you a fool. For Christ showed us plain and simple it not about being perfect its about doing the perfect thing (whatever it may be) when its called for. We all have ups and downs its how we go about triumphing that makes us perfect.

reply to post by jonathannas0187

The Isaiah quotations, for me, show one of the ways that God's people can be unfaithful to him, so they had a bearing on the "God's unfaithful people" aspect of this complex figure Babylon.

On the meaning of "apocalypse"; APO is "away from" and KALYPSIS comes from the verb meaning concealment. So an "apocalypse" is the removal of something from concealment. A revelation, in fact. In time "apocalyptic" has come to mean "the kind of event that might be found in the book The Apocalypse", and the meaning "dramatic end-time experience" came by that route.

What is being revealed is God's intention to do away with the sources of evil, including persecution. This is bad news for the sources of evil, and good news for the victims of it. This plan is finally completed in the "new Jerusalem" chapters. It is shown to be guaranteed by the same power that raised Christ from the dead. It seems to me that this result is depicted in Revelation as one of the consequences of the Atonement.

There is now an Index, covering all these Revelation threads, at this location;

Index of Revelation threads

This thread is numbered as #38 in the "order of chapters" list and Biblical reference index.

Just to clarify;
Nothing in the OP is intended to suggest any particular prophetic significance in the year 2012 or the date 21/12/2012

reply to post by DISRAELI


My response to the claims made about the year 2012 was that I could see no prophetic significance in the date.
This position seems to have been vindicated.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Fallen, Fallen, Is Babylon The Great!

Merry Nimrodmass!

This series was running ten years ago, and is still very relevant.

"PIT v GB"

originally posted by: DISRAELI

Can this be translated, please?

I think reference to the Super Bowl in Feb 2011, Pittsburgh vs Green Bay


I wonder if there are two Babylons, one spiritual and one commercial.
I think 'Mystery Babylon' will be a future world religion, possibly 'Chrislam'. If the Muslims restore some sort of Caliphate, they may force (Christian) Europe to some religious accomodation. I can see the post-rapture Christian church--perhaps the Catholic one--adopting Muslim tenets to form a new compromised faith. Apparently it won't last long.

I believe this woman is seen in the Old testament (Zechariah chapter 5)

There might also be a commercial Babylon, maybe NY or the USA.
one theory is that the old original Babylon city in Iraq might be rebuilt and turned into a regional power center, maybe for the new Caliphate.

thanks for your posts, I always enjoy and enlightened by them.




is the use of the word 'Wake' in the title, as in funeral or memoriam for?

a reply to: ElGoobero

ChrIslam is a human creation, but religious instead of anti-religious as will be introduced by the false prophet element of the Anti-Trinity

? noticed that the USA space program began with launch rockets and operations named after Greek pantheon figures/ gods, etc.

but later changed to embrace the Roman pantheon of pagan deities


law- science all dripping with pagan gods & goddesses ..at least in the USA, the melting-pot of Babylon practices

originally posted by: ElGoobero
is the use of the word 'Wake' in the title, as in funeral or memoriam for?

Yes, exactly (though it puzzled another contributor to this thread).
I don't know if you've noticed my previous bumping of the four 2010 threads in which I analysed the Harlot?