New discovery places "elephants" in contact with ancient Mesoamericans

Finding Would Reveal Contact between Humans and Gomphotheres in North America (from Artdaily.org)

MEXICO CITY.- Mexican Archaeologists discovered 3 Clovis projectile heads associated to remains of gomphotheres with an age of at least 12,000 years, in the northern region of the Mexican state of Sonora. The finding is relevant because these are the first evidences in North America of this extinct animal linked to the human species.

The finding opens the possibility of the coexistence of humankind with gomphotheres, animals similar to mammoths, but smaller, in this region of America, which contrasts with theories that declare that this species disappeared 30,000 years ago in this region of America and did not coexist with humans.

The discovery took place in early January 2011 in El Fin del Mundo, Sonora by researchers from the National Institute of Anthropology and History (INAH), during the third field season at the site identified as a hunting and quartering area during the Pleistocene.

Why is this a big deal?

Because this completely undermines several fringe theories that Mesoamericans were in contact with India and/or Egyptians (something I still find believable at times...), but facts may say otherwise.

See: Stichin's "The case of the missing elephant"
See: Book of Mormon Animals "Elephants"

Olmec pottery of an "elephant"

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/730e45606cd4.jpg[/atsimg]

The Olmec have depicted what appears to be an elephant, although it was never quite certain what exactly it was. This recent discovery shows that ancient Mesoamericans may have hunted gomphotheres, and this depiction may have remained with them from those times.

Maya depiction of elephants

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/477c00b18558.gif[/atsimg]

The Maya worshiped a long-nosed god "Chac" who many have also claimed proved contact between the Maya and India (among the Tamil), where similar gods were worshiped and depicted.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/623f9b85ecdf.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/f2dc9fecd2e1.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/8be96d6f3f64.jpg[/atsimg]

The Mormon have also made an assertion that an elephant deity was transferred from the old world:

The key here is that this depiction (on the pottery) is of an Indian elephant deity and not an elephant roaming the wilds of America. If the author of the above piece is correct, then the knowledge of the elephant god from India came from the Old World but the actual animal did not. - source

What did the Gomphotheres look like?

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/51769de6b4bb.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/0267bbef1812.jpg[/atsimg]

Compared to the Mayan and Olmec depictions - especially the one favored by Sitchin, with the smaller ears than those found on an African elephant, it looks like Gomphotheres were indeed the model for those illustrations. The discovery of the clovis points with Gomphotheres is proof of contact between the two, and that Gomphotheres were still around when Humans arrived.

Which dates the people at 30,000+yrs i take it?
are you saying this shows central america to be inhabited at that time?
or are you saying they ate elephants much like our modern ones only a tad smaller?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.................

No, "Mexican Archaeologists discovered 3 Clovis projectile heads associated to remains of gomphotheres with an age of at least 12,000 years, in the northern region of the Mexican state of Sonora. The finding is relevant because these are the first evidences in North America of this extinct animal linked to the human species. "

The gomphotheres then, were still around when humans arrived, circa 12-13,000 years ago.

reply to post by Blackmarketeer


Nice to see this subject has been resurrected.

Did you know that Chaac (Tlaloc-Aztec) is dipicted as the rain god in the Maya civilization? The only animal that can make appear to rain is the elephant. This fact alone proves the Mayans and the Aztecs knew of the elephant deity.

But does it prove the rain deity Chac was imported from India? Or that it's a depiction based solely on an animal the Mesoamericans may have known (the gomphotheres). It's been speculated before that their depictions of elephants were based on surviving pockets of mammoths, but this discovery may actually bear that out to a degree (even if it was gomphotheres and not mammoths).

reply to post by Blackmarketeer


I believe there could have been surviving pockets of this animal in Mesoamerica. I don't believe India refers to the elephant as a rain god. Their god of rain is Varuna and he is not depicted as an elephant. This proves Chaac, the rain god, was originally Mesoamerican only. A rare animal that could make it appear to rain would be honored as a god.

Originally posted by Blackmarketeer
Finding Would Reveal Contact between Humans and Gomphotheres in North America (from Artdaily.org)

MEXICO CITY.- Mexican Archaeologists discovered 3 Clovis projectile heads associated to remains of gomphotheres with an age of at least 12,000 years, in the northern region of the Mexican state of Sonora. The finding is relevant because these are the first evidences in North America of this extinct animal linked to the human species.

Why is this a big deal?

Because this completely undermines several fringe theories that Mesoamericans were in contact with India and/or Egyptians (something I still find believable at times...), but facts may say otherwise.

I don't know that it undermines them (the idea simply isn't workable) but it's an absolutely exciting idea. We know that they hunted mammoths (there's a number of places in the US with remains of mammoths that clearly were killed by Native Americans), and the gomphotere is a fairly common find at sites in South America: en.wikipedia.org...

They may have survived up until about 6,000 years ago. The find extends the known range and may prove to be a new species of this creature. So it's pretty darned exciting.

The Olmec have depicted what appears to be an elephant, although it was never quite certain what exactly it was. This recent discovery shows that ancient Mesoamericans may have hunted gomphotheres, and this depiction may have remained with them from those times.

That's kind of unlikely since the gomphotere doesn't really look like an elephant and the Olmec don't appear until some 5,000 years later. If it was a holdover image, we'd see it repeated by the cultures that predate the Olmecs.

Maya depiction of elephants

...are even more of a problem, since what's being described as an "elephant" isn't. There's writing on that image (put there by the Mayans) which tells what the image is. Sitchin and others, of course, don't bother to tell you that there's writing there or what it says.

The Maya worshiped a long-nosed god "Chac" who many have also claimed proved contact between the Maya and India (among the Tamil), where similar gods were worshiped and depicted.

The images of Chac change through time (see this one for example, where he has a very normal nose):
www.travelpod.com...

He's not very similar to Ganesh (in fact he's not at all similar to Ganesh (India -- Tamil people live in India among other places).) Ganesh worship arose during the 5th century BC (en.wikipedia.org...) -- his depiction isn't unusual for a place which has a lot of elephants.

The Mormon have also made an assertion that an elephant deity was transferred from the old world:

The key here is that this depiction (on the pottery) is of an Indian elephant deity and not an elephant roaming the wilds of America. If the author of the above piece is correct, then the knowledge of the elephant god from India came from the Old World but the actual animal did not. - source

There's another key problem in that the timing of the beginning of the worship of Ganesh doesn't match the Mormon timeline.

Compared to the Mayan and Olmec depictions - especially the one favored by Sitchin, with the smaller ears than those found on an African elephant, it looks like Gomphotheres were indeed the model for those illustrations.

I don't think we have any depictions of these animals. Sitchin's material is "cherry picked" and is positioned and interpreted so that you will agree with his conclusions.

Now -- it would NOT surprise me that there might be some rock art of mastodons or gomphotheres... but I haven't seen any depictions presented in clear cultural context. I'd love to see some, though, particularly in and near sites where there's known kills.

reply to post by Blackmarketeer


An alternative view I've not read thus far is that the dating of the points are way wrong, humans were here earlier as fairly recent indications have shown and that places them here when the beasts roamed. At any rate, we now know why the animals disappeared also. It wasn't always climate change.

There are elephant mounds along the Mississippi.
They get passed off as other things, but birds don't have big floppy ears and a trunk...
usually

Thanks for the reply LostInSpace, and Byrd, excellent reply as usual.

@Aliensun, the clovis point itself indicates the time frame as that is a specific artifact pertaining to a culture beginning no earlier than 11,500 yeas ago. At least as far as this specific find goes, it rules out a dating of any earlier than that.

reply to post by Blackmarketeer


S & F

I'm not sure of the "contact" part of the thread. But Thanks for posting the article.

The Mayan and other tribal depictions that some claim are elephants, these are for the most part macaws. You're looking at them backwards.

It appears to me that the hand-drawn versions seem to be altered in a way to make them look more elephantine. You can find the actual depictions online and see for yourself.

There's a site out there somewhere (or used to be) that highlighted the parts of the macaw's head so you could tell what it was.

The bird is stylized, like almost every Mesoamerican animal depiction, but it is recognizeable, once you have it shown to you.

Harte

Copan Honduras, Stela B - Eighteen Rabbit


Here is an actual photograph of Eighteen Rabbit in all his glory. Macaw or elephants you decide.
Copan


The ruins at Copan are amazing compared to other Mayan sites. The detail is unbelievable.
Copan has one giant head similar to the Olmecs, with the difference being the nationality.

Nice, you got to love when a discovery is made that causes a change of theory Science has too many gaps when it comes to the history of the Americas. Too many civilizations dropped outta sight in a historical viewpoint. Makes me think about the mammoths that survived in Siberia into early recorded history. What kind of niche survivors were in the Americas?

reply to post by hangedman13


Science will always have gaps, it's the scientific process that seeks to fill those gaps. No one can possibly know the entirety of our history, all we can do is plug in new discoveries as we uncover them and revise our theories to better match reality.

What's so nice about this little discovery is that it takes away some of the "fringier" theories that Mayans and the New World were in contact with the Old World.

Anyhow, S+F

Varuna is the god of ocean and keeper of souls...its Indira who is prayed as the god of rain in india and others parts of the world e.g Bali (Indonesia)...and Indira's mounted vehicle is an elephant....and in most God Indira's art, he is depicted as sitting on top of an elephant that sprays water (rain) from its snout/trunk...