What freedoms are you talking about???

LOL, honestly! I can see a totally different world where people don't have to work long hours and can spend more time with family. Americans work long hours for what they have just to maintain a stable level of living. What we have now is chaos. Most citizens are living in cities and near coastlines causing a great deal of congestion. People are totally dependent on technology. There is nothing to compare life as we live it, except for Rome, which was not ideal. We know how that ended. Is it necessary to work eight hours a day and spend more time at work than with family? It's all about survival. We may have nicer toys than Africa, but it's still about fear and survival and staying off the streets.


I can envision self-sufficient communities, instead of people living in their boxes and the majority never knowing their neighbors.

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


Sorry for the late reply. I had a busy weekend

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
Who wouldn't want to be their own bosses? But i am sure you know that if everyone was their own bosses then who would be making factory jobs such as making clothes, boots, etc, etc, etc?

I am not a business owner, and I am not rich, but I do know that if everyone was their own boss, no one would be making clothes, since you need employees to make clothes, boots, food products, etc, etc, etc.

First of all for some reason, not everyone would want to be their own boss, so I think there are enough who do. And back in the day when small business thrived, there where food, clothes, boots, food products etc available. Some people feel a calling to do this work, some have a passion for it.

I am sorry but you are wrong, that report does not say in any way that "taxes are not necessary", but rather that there has been too much spending, and ineficiency within the Federal bank/government.

And without the too much spending and inefficiency within the Federal bank (which didn't exist before 1913) and the government (which was much smaller before 1913) income taxes would not be necessary. Note that I did not say "taxes are not necessary", I said "income taxes are not necessary".

We wouldn't have the debt we have now IF taxes were used as they are supposed to, so WE DO NEED TAXES unfortunately. However, we should be having a flat tax, instead of taxes for everything. Soon enough and thanks to Obama and his administration we will be paying taxes on CO2, so in essence we will be paying taxes for breathing.

Same as above.

I was responding to your initial post, so I had not read your other comments when I first posted mine.

By your OP you seemed to be implying that we need some form of anarchy in order for you to feel free, that's what your OP seemed to be saying.

No, we don't need anarchy, but we do need limited government. A government with a libertarian philosophy and way of working.

Incredible OP.

I have thought about this ever since the War on Terror began. I certainly don't feel free. Even the US constitution doesn't grant absolute freedom. For me, it would be nice if our country could at least return to constitutional freedoms. More than that, I would love to work on my own projects, on my own terms. I would love to be able to express my opinions without restriction. Part of the problem is you get in the way of other freedoms.

As far as limited government as it applies to measured human behavior in groups, we have seen it and it is horrible. See: Somalia, human history. It turns out we need a social infrastructure that people pay into. We need an environment that fosters technological innovation, and we need to care about each other. The less we do, the worse our society will become. Whether it's the government or some communal group that needs to do it, it needs to be done.

Look around the world. The countries with a larger government and greater social safety net generally have more free time and a greater standard of living.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

"If you wish to have the perks of a society (food, medicine, clothing, ambulance, fire trucks, roads) then you have to pay for them. Income tax does that."
.
Actually most of the above is paid for by a combination of other taxes (than income): property tax, sales tax, gas tax, etc. with income tax going to pay for entitlement programs, defense spending and interest on the nat'l debt.

Physically speaking, we are all free to the limits of our bodies and minds (unless we are restrained/incarcerated.)

Politically speaking, there are no true democracies that exist in the world to my knowledge, therefore, true individual liberty for everyone is only possible outside the confines of modern law.

Then again, even a true democracy couldn't grant everyone's wishes....

Originally posted by schlub
Incredible OP.

I have thought about this ever since the War on Terror began. I certainly don't feel free. Even the US constitution doesn't grant absolute freedom. For me, it would be nice if our country could at least return to constitutional freedoms. More than that, I would love to work on my own projects, on my own terms. I would love to be able to express my opinions without restriction. Part of the problem is you get in the way of other freedoms.

As far as limited government as it applies to measured human behavior in groups, we have seen it and it is horrible. See: Somalia, human history. It turns out we need a social infrastructure that people pay into. We need an environment that fosters technological innovation, and we need to care about each other. The less we do, the worse our society will become. Whether it's the government or some communal group that needs to do it, it needs to be done.

Look around the world. The countries with a larger government and greater social safety net generally have more free time and a greater standard of living.

edit on 27-1-2011 by schlub because: (no reason given)

edit on 27-1-2011 by schlub because: I just added more info.

Yes, the "bigger" more socialist governments tend to have a better standard of living, but at a cost. They tend to overspend on their social programs, often due to pressure from the public. In order to maintain the standard of living, they borrow and borrow and run massive deficits, and then you end up with what is happening in Spain, Greece and Ireland right now.

Also, socialism breeds laziness. People soon tend to believe they are entitled to these benefits. In Ireland most people are better off on welfare than working a minimum wage job.

I see it everyday on this site especially. People raging against their governments because they cant believe they have to work 40 hour work weeks, and actually pay for the services they recieve. Ive seen several posts on why ALL taxes are a bad thing. Where do these people think money to pave our streets, police out towns and run social programs comes from?

Yes, the "bigger" more socialist governments tend to have a better standard of living, but at a cost. They tend to overspend on their social programs, often due to pressure from the public. In order to maintain the standard of living, they borrow and borrow and run massive deficits, and then you end up with what is happening in Spain, Greece and Ireland right now

How did the USA Government get into finanical mess?

Originally posted by Ellen15

Yes, the "bigger" more socialist governments tend to have a better standard of living, but at a cost. They tend to overspend on their social programs, often due to pressure from the public. In order to maintain the standard of living, they borrow and borrow and run massive deficits, and then you end up with what is happening in Spain, Greece and Ireland right now

How did the USA Government get into finanical mess?

Spending beyond their means? Borrowing money when they have the strongest economy in the world (or did), are still running deficit budgets?

Originally posted by nightbringr
Yes, the "bigger" more socialist governments tend to have a better standard of living, but at a cost. They tend to overspend on their social programs, often due to pressure from the public. In order to maintain the standard of living, they borrow and borrow and run massive deficits, and then you end up with what is happening in Spain, Greece and Ireland right now.

Also, socialism breeds laziness. People soon tend to believe they are entitled to these benefits. In Ireland most people are better off on welfare than working a minimum wage job.

I see it everyday on this site especially. People raging against their governments because they cant believe they have to work 40 hour work weeks, and actually pay for the services they recieve. Ive seen several posts on why ALL taxes are a bad thing. Where do these people think money to pave our streets, police out towns and run social programs comes from?

I think you've found a measured response somewhere in the middle. As far as I'm concerned, I don't have any weird hangups about people I don't know being lazy. What do I care? And I DO believe that all people are entitled to housing, sustenance, civil rights, and relative comfort. Even the lazy. Even the stupid. I'd rather have people lazing around in projects living off the dole than out committing crimes. I'd rather live in a country full of well-educated, healthy lazy people than the unhealthy, ignorant, hardworking scrubs I deal with on a daily basis.

Originally posted by schlub

Originally posted by nightbringr
Yes, the "bigger" more socialist governments tend to have a better standard of living, but at a cost. They tend to overspend on their social programs, often due to pressure from the public. In order to maintain the standard of living, they borrow and borrow and run massive deficits, and then you end up with what is happening in Spain, Greece and Ireland right now.

Also, socialism breeds laziness. People soon tend to believe they are entitled to these benefits. In Ireland most people are better off on welfare than working a minimum wage job.

I see it everyday on this site especially. People raging against their governments because they cant believe they have to work 40 hour work weeks, and actually pay for the services they recieve. Ive seen several posts on why ALL taxes are a bad thing. Where do these people think money to pave our streets, police out towns and run social programs comes from?

I think you've found a measured response somewhere in the middle. As far as I'm concerned, I don't have any weird hangups about people I don't know being lazy. What do I care? And I DO believe that all people are entitled to housing, sustenance, civil rights, and relative comfort. Even the lazy. Even the stupid. I'd rather have people lazing around in projects living off the dole than out committing crimes. I'd rather live in a country full of well-educated, healthy lazy people than the unhealthy, ignorant, hardworking scrubs I deal with on a daily basis.

Ok, so then you have no problem paying for people to sit on their asses on welfare doing nothing to contribute to society as a whole when they could be working even minimum wage jobs? Interesting take.

May i ask you to explain your reasoning a little clearer? You state you would rather have people doing nothing at all and taking from good, honest hard working citizens then out commiting crimes.

So all unemployed are going to commit crimes? I would like to think if i was unemployed, i would work hard to improve myself or get employment, even if minimum wage at McDonalds so i can actually rest at night knowing im not a burden to society.

The last statement you make is telling. You said you would rather live in a country of well-educated, unemployed, lazy people than working scrubs. How do you think that would work? You do realize people who are motivated to get a good education are the ones who are motivated to get a job?

Who is going to pay for 65 million British to sit around doing nothing? Perhaps you think you can run deficit budgets forever, borrowing money from the IMF and then never paying it back because you have no economy because no one is working. I dont think you understand finances.

Bumped this thread seeing that there is a similar thought going on in another thread...


Do you feel like Having to Work is un-natural?