"Antonio a Negro": America's first slave owner.

Originally posted by tom502
There is a political anti-white agenda with the way slavery is used and "taught" in history. We are propagandized that it's ALL about race, and the evil white man oppressing the poor black. This is what most people think, especially blacks, as this has been drilled into their heads, not only by our pandering PC government, but the black racist agitators. They don't want to put any "blame" on the black Africans, or acknowledge any black slave owners in the US.

This is a sad truth that we all need to face. It's time for all of us to wake up and start thinking progressively, instead of holding on to things that happened in the past. Only once we forgive our fellow man can we truly move forward! We are, after all, only human. I'm glad so many of you share these same beliefs.

Originally posted by lee anoma

Originally posted by 2manyquestions
Being a slave is not exclusive to the blacks, but since the U.S. has been trying to improve it's reputation, it's gone through a process in which it tries to bring these wrong-doings to light and discusses them to no end. We apologize again and again, we celebrate black history month, we teach kids about the evils of slavery, and some continue to use their history as a crutch.

I hear what you are saying and a lot of it of course makes sense, but in what way are Blacks using slavery as a crutch?

Let's keep in mind that not everybody uses slavery as a crutch, but there are a select few who keep bringing it up and using it as an excuse for their lot in life. Slavery was a fact and racism was/is a fact,.... but.... when you allow these things to become an excuse not to try harder to achieve whatever it is you want in life, it becomes a crutch. Why am I living in the ghetto? Must be because I'm black, and because of the fact that I'm black, society stands in my way of success. Why should I try? They'll just knock me down again. Obviously that may be partially true in some parts of the U.S. no doubt about it, BUT.... through hard work, dedication and strength of character one can overcome these obstacles. Being poor and living in the ghetto is not easy. It's not easy to stay positive,... but think of the vast improvement if one day everyone in the community decided "We are going to stop harassing each other, stop the drive-by shootings, drive out the drug dealers, and we are going to focus on our jobs and our education."

The positive environment would turn things around faster than anyone could ever imagine. When kids don't have to worry about being shot while walking to or from school, when they don't have to worry about being hassled, they can focus on being kids and getting a proper education. Poverty is not a good excuse to commit crimes. A community has to stand together and denounce violence at every turn. The community as a whole must take control to make change happen. Unfortunately everyone is so focused on their individual problems, they don't care what others do. Some may believe society is against them, but from the looks of it it's not just the racism, it's the violence and hate in their own communities that holds them back. I'm not sure I've ever been exposed to a group of people who were so hell-bent on exterminating each other. These are just my personal observations, having lived in Southern California for about 18 years now.

The only people I ever see bringing up slavery, tend to usually be White, and around here, whenever it is brought up, it's usually to reduce or misconstrue the events surrounding slavery in America.

I don't know where you're from so I can't comment on this.

Are Blacks unified in asking something from Whites regarding slavery?
I haven't heard anything about it.

I don't know one African-American asking me or anyone else to help them get paid because of slavery.

Wasn't there some talk about reparations at one point? Special Report: "Reparations for Slavery Debate"
Reparations for Slavery: Older News Summaries and Links

Putting slavery aside though, America had issues with equality long after slavery, and people fought all the way up until the 60-70's to gain equal footing in a Country that didn't even want to recognize them as human beings, let alone citizens, but the mere mention of slavery seems to set peoples eyes rolling

In fact, this is the first time the subject has even been brought to my attention this year. I've heard (and seen) more about the Holocaust than I have about slavery, but no one seems to be in a fuss over that or calling it "whining".

You know, I do agree with you about the fact that the Holocaust gets a lot of play on TV, on the internet, in the movie theaters, and books. There's no doubt about that. In my opinion it gets more play than ANY genocide or human tragedy story on this planet. Frankly I'm beginning to feel annoyed even at the thought of it. When I think about all the play it gets, it reminds me of a personality that likes all the focus in the world to be on them. "See what happened to me? See? Are you looking? You haven't seen enough. Here let me show you. Let me tell you all about me, me, me, and all of my problems. Sure there's other genocides and horrible murders in the world still happening today, sure there were thousands of gypsies who also perished, but let's talk about me some more." There just might be more movies, books, and documentaries about the holocaust than about any other subject in human history.

Slavery also comes up quite a bit (maybe it feels that way to me, because I had to study it in school in several different classes), but it's difficult to avoid it if you're going to make a movie about the South in the 18th - 20th century. I have no problem with it being mentioned, and I don't roll my eyes over it. However, I feel it's time for people to realize that slavery is not unique to the black race, and that we've all been victims at one point or another. Humans love to fight each other for land, and they love fighting for their own freedoms at the expense of others. We should not stop discussing the issue, but we should stop playing the blame game, because it does no good for anyone. It's time to move past it and look to the future. It's been a hundred years now. When I occasionally go to Slovakia, I don't hear people blaming the Austro-Hungarians for their poverty, and I don't see movies on TV or discussions constantly bringing it up. Hell, 20 years ago they came out from under Communist rule, being oppressed by the Russians, but I don't see anyone complaining. They've moved on, because it's time to move on. Talking to people or watching TV you probably wouldn't even know something happened unless you ask. Who would want to keep reliving such a painful history?

How many mainstream movies this year will bring up or feature some aspect of slavery?

How many Blacks will ask us to pay them for slavery this year?

How many have already asked the people upset about it in this thread.

Chances are slim to none.

I honestly think this notion of Blacks walking around 24/7 with slavery on the mind, and demanding something from Whites because of slavery, is a phantom being drummed by White supremacists and political opportunists to get a lot of desperate people supportive of an agenda.

I think a lot of people are simply projecting without cause.

- Lee

I couldn't tell you how many movies we'll see being made about slavery. Probably very few, since blacks haven't got much hold in Hollywood. I don't know how many black ATS members we have here, so I can't tell you whether or not we'll see some of them speak up. I also can't predict how many black people speak up this year and ask that reparations should be paid to them. However, I also know that it's been discussed in the past, and people have asked for reparations. As I mentioned earlier, I've had to study slavery in several different classes, High School and University included. I've taken a couple of Afro-American studies in College where we discussed these issues in good length and watched plenty of movies on the subject. The regular Joe may not feel bombarded with it, but if you're going through school you will encounter it on a regular basis.

Just to make it clear, I am NOT complaining that it's brought up. I actually find the subject interesting. My only issue with it is that in America people like to think of slavery as a black thing, when it isn't.

I don't think blacks walk around 24/7 with slavery on their minds, but I'm sure there are those who still to this day feel that the lack of success in their lives is partly due to the fact that their ancestors were enslaved by whites. I really wish there was something I could do to help those people overcome the past and focus on a better future, but I'm not sure that I can. Only they can do that for themselves. All I can do is do my part in continuing to treat them with respect and kindness as my equals, and hope they don't see me as an enemy just because of the color of my skin.

Originally posted by SamTGonzalez
The purpose of this thread is to show people that whites were not the only people that owned slaves in early America.

I understand what you were saying.
If people do not know this fact, then I hope that this helped them to some degree.

In every area of the world at one point or another, there were slaves and slave owners.

I was inspired to share this information because the area I grew up in is predominantly black, and most of them have such an ignorant, hateful attitude towards white people.

Sorry to hear that.

I grew up in a predominately White area of West Virginia and most of the people there had the same hateful attitudes about Blacks.

It's just humans being humans.

It's not unusual for people who have little interaction with different races to form hateful uninformed opinions, but it would be wrong for you or I to assume that all Whites and Blacks felt the way the ones we encountered did.

Even worse, to contribute to it.

In high school, all I was taught was how blacks were oppressed by whites ever since slavery started..

To be honest, most history books simply breeze through Black History in America.
They mention Slavery, Lincoln, Martin Luther King marched for peace, and then move on. Although there was mention of oppression (and rightfully so because it happened) I don't recall any book saying this continues to this day.

Maybe they've changed since I was a teen, but there was no in depth mention of anything beyond that when I was growing up and I'm 36.

You do have a point about only the negatives being pushed forward though, without any mention of the contributions Blacks have made to America. There is no balance, save one month out of the year, when teachers may or may not talk about:

Benjamin Banneker, Fredrick Douglas, W.E.B. DuBois, Booker T. Washington, Miriam E. Benjamin, Charles Brooks, George Washington Carver, or Charles Drew, to name a few.

Most people still don't know who these people are or what they have contributed in the difficult times they lived in.

The history books never go into detail about slavery in other parts of the world.

Do you mean High School history books, or history books in general?

If you want to learn about slavery in other parts of the world there is a literal TON of information out there for you to read or watch. There is no excuse for anyone not to know about the history of slavery in various parts of the world if they really wanted to learn about it.

Slavery still exists everywhere. It hasn't ended, no matter how many people say it has.
If you want to learn more about world slavery that exists to this day the BBC did a good job of putting together a lot of information:

Modern Slavery - BBC

If you mean "high school" history books, well, that probably has to do with the fact that most of it is centered around "American History" and how it related to the world, as opposed to going in depth about world history.

The history books never speak of people like Anthony Johnson.

They don't mention Hugh Gwyn either, who owned a slave long before Johnson.

But why would they?

High School history books didn't go into details about specific slave owners unless it was extremely relevant, they just say it happened. What would be the purpose of mentioning Anthony Johnson other than to say "look Blacks also owned slaves, too"?

The guy was a slave himself. Kidnapped from Africa and twice sold.
Hence the reason they say "he gained his freedom" then owned a slave.

He cannot even be the first slave owner if he was a slave himself.

It's interesting information but what purpose would it serve to say that this guy owned a slave?

That is the attitude of most of the black people in my environment.

If you hang around a group of drunks, would it be fair to assume everyone was constantly smashed?
Like with most of our problems, perhaps a change of environment is due and it is your responsibility to make it happen.

Slavery doesn't come up in everyday conversation in my circles, and that's from the various types of people I hang out with. A good number of which are Black.

Which is why I say this thing about Blacks sitting around talking about slavery all day is an absurd myth.

Perceived acts of racism and discrimination does come up, yes,....but complaints about slavery?

You're the first this year.

- Lee

Originally posted by 2manyquestions
Wasn't there some talk about reparations at one point? Special Report: "Reparations for Slavery Debate"
Reparations for Slavery: Older News Summaries and Links

There's always been talk about reparations from one group or another, just like there is talk about secession from the U.S., Palestinian death camps, or Mexico taking back America because it belongs to them.

My point was, it isn't a unified position of all peoples in that group or race.

Yes some group or another brought up reparations.
A new one may form and do the same in the near future.

A fool would believe this to be the position of all Blacks.

I don't think blacks walk around 24/7 with slavery on their minds, but I'm sure there are those who still to this day feel that the lack of success in their lives is partly due to the fact that their ancestors were enslaved by whites.

Maybe you should ask them if that is true, so you will know for sure.
Like I said, the Blacks I know, and the ones in my very family, aren't going on and on about slavery.

I'd say that there are some minorities (not just Blacks) that feel they lack success do to discrimination and racism, or women who feel the same do to the "glass ceiling".

I don't think it is about "slavery" at all.

Discrimination, sexism, and racism are still a problem we all face in America.
People usually tend to focus on the obstacles in front of them rather than behind them.

It's why you'll find Blacks talking about job loss, foreclosures, mounting debt, the current American wars, etc...before talking about slavery.

I really wish there was something I could do to help those people overcome the past and focus on a better future, but I'm not sure that I can. Only they can do that for themselves. All I can do is do my part in continuing to treat them with respect and kindness as my equals, and hope they don't see me as an enemy just because of the color of my skin.

I think you have great intentions, the only thing I would say would be to not feel responsible for anything that doesn't have to do with you.

Especially the state of another persons mind.

There are people out there stuck on the slavery concept, no doubt, but don't believe this is the general feelings of the whole.

Thanks for sharing,

- Lee

Originally posted by SamTGonzalez
This is a sad truth that we all need to face. It's time for all of us to wake up and start thinking progressively, instead of holding on to things that happened in the past. Only once we forgive our fellow man can we truly move forward! We are, after all, only human. I'm glad so many of you share these same beliefs.

I agree with the sentiments.

Again, I just don't see a lot of Black people talking about slavery.
It's usually White people bringing it up then saying we should move on.
It makes me wonder if it is more on the mind of Whites than Blacks.

It's very strange.

If people want to chain themselves to a harsh past, that is between them and their peace of mind.

I'm not going to lose sleep over the fact that there are Black people out there that are still upset over slavery anymore than there are White people out there that want it to come back.

There are members of the Tea Party in the South that want slavery removed from text books all together, but I know that they don't speak for all White people in America.

That's the thing though.

We don't have a problem separating the individual from the whole in cases that tend to regard White people (Jared Loughner is the shooter, but not all young White males are), but when it comes to cases involving minorities, we tend to lump them together based on the beliefs and actions of a few (one Black group wants reparations, all Blacks must want reparations).

I'll just leave it at that and move on.

Thanks for the information,

- Lee

Originally posted by lee anoma

Originally posted by 2manyquestions
Wasn't there some talk about reparations at one point? Special Report: "Reparations for Slavery Debate"
Reparations for Slavery: Older News Summaries and Links

There's always been talk about reparations from one group or another, just like there is talk about secession from the U.S., Palestinian death camps, or Mexico taking back America because it belongs to them.

My point was, it isn't a unified position of all peoples in that group or race.

Yes some group or another brought up reparations.
A new one may form and do the same in the near future.

A fool would believe this to be the position of all Blacks.

Of course it's not the position of all blacks. I don't think a group of people ever unified over any idea completely. You will always have opposing views even in a group that shares race or cultural background. You wrote in your post that you never heard anyone ask for anything, so I countered that with an example of a group of people who did wish to discuss reparations. Obviously that group had to be big enough to get the attention of Congress. They don't just discuss any issue if only a few people feel it's important.

I don't think blacks walk around 24/7 with slavery on their minds, but I'm sure there are those who still to this day feel that the lack of success in their lives is partly due to the fact that their ancestors were enslaved by whites.

Maybe you should ask them if that is true, so you will know for sure.
Like I said, the Blacks I know, and the ones in my very family, aren't going on and on about slavery.

As I mentioned in my previous post, I discussed this subject in class several times in depth. I did that with my black professors, and fellow black students in the class. I heard what they had to say. They can't speak for every black person in America, but they must have found their beliefs somewhere,.... most likely within their black families and communities. I don't suppose these things pop up on an every-day basis at dinner time, but it doesn't mean that it doesn't cross their minds once in a while, especially when they've just felt like they experienced racism (real or imagined).

I'd say that there are some minorities (not just Blacks) that feel they lack success do to discrimination and racism, or women who feel the same do to the "glass ceiling".

I don't think it is about "slavery" at all.

Discrimination, sexism, and racism are still a problem we all face in America.
People usually tend to focus on the obstacles in front of them rather than behind them.

Just like blacks, women have their issues. Women have been oppressed by men for centuries, so it is no surprise that every now and then they would feel discriminated against. As a woman myself I have felt the discrimination several times in my life. However I was lucky enough that my father raised me to believe that I could do anything I wanted to. I was not raised to be a dainty weak girl. Until I was in my late teens I had no idea that women experienced any type of discrimination. Well, I'll back up and say that when I was a kid I wanted to participate in a model airplane club only to be told that I couldn't, because I was a girl. I don't bring up the discrimination I've felt as a woman unless someone asks. I go about my life trying to be the best I can be, and hope nothing stands in my way due to my gender. I'm also realistic about it, and I won't try to infiltrate a mens' group just to prove a point. I feel that even though gender discrimination exists, it hasn't stopped me from being who I am or succeeding at what I do. If someone decides to unjustly stand in my way one day, I'll either fight to progress, or I will move onto the next best thing. There's no time to sulk.

It's why you'll find Blacks talking about job loss, foreclosures, mounting debt, the current American wars, etc...before talking about slavery.

I would hope so, since these are current events weighing us down, while slavery is (relatively....because we still have illegal slave trade in the world) a thing of the past. I too would be more concerned with losing my house than with the unfortunate history of my ancestors.

I really wish there was something I could do to help those people overcome the past and focus on a better future, but I'm not sure that I can. Only they can do that for themselves. All I can do is do my part in continuing to treat them with respect and kindness as my equals, and hope they don't see me as an enemy just because of the color of my skin.

I think you have great intentions, the only thing I would say would be to not feel responsible for anything that doesn't have to do with you.

Especially the state of another persons mind.

There are people out there stuck on the slavery concept, no doubt, but don't believe this is the general feelings of the whole.

Thanks for sharing,

- Lee

I don't feel responsible at all, I just feel hurt that somebody would look at me and automatically categorize me as the enemy just because I'm white. It also feels unjust that somebody would look at the color of my skin and deduce that I owe them something for the way their ancestors were treated. I'm not saying that this is the way all blacks feel, but there are some groups of blacks who (unfortunately) DO feel that way.

reply to post by 2manyquestions


Because paying reparations is no feasible there is still a memory of a great wrong that has been done. Since I have been on ATS it seems that whites seem to bear this moral guilt regarding slavery given their ceasless beating of that dead horse. Yes I can lump white people together because that is what is done to black people.

Enough already!

I have no interest in reparations or free white money (as if black people don't pay taxes). I have had moderators on ATS chime in to inform me that they don't owe me anything just because I have responded to troll threads on the "horrid black race". I have never asked for anything. The truth is out there. It is too bad that some folk are too ignorant for words because what is more likely is every quarter some loon demands to us the N-word and or justify slavery in recent times.

They are so busy justifying slavery that they ignore white supremacy and dare not consider it as the real significance of slavery in America.

Good luck I am just glad that I hold degrees and run my business just so.

Enough already!

My friends and family work and have the sort of education that most can only dream of so reparations are not the topic du jour ever. Nor do we discuss evil whites . we just keep waving as we rise above them.

Originally posted by tiger5
reply to post by 2manyquestions

 

Because paying reparations is no feasible there is still a memory of a great wrong that has been done. Since I have been on ATS it seems that whites seem to bear this moral guilt regarding slavery given their ceasless beating of that dead horse. Yes I can lump white people together because that is what is done to black people.

A great wrong HAS been done.... by people hundreds of years ago. My family never owned slaves. In fact it's more likely my ancestors were slaves to somebody else somewhere, so why is it O.K. for you to lump me into the same group of white people? If you want to rise above it, why contradict yourself in the same post and lump a group together just because some ignorant people do the same to black people? If you're above it, you wouldn't come down to their level. It seems a little bit vengeful, doesn't it?

Enough already!

I have no interest in reparations or free white money (as if black people don't pay taxes). I have had moderators on ATS chime in to inform me that they don't owe me anything just because I have responded to troll threads on the "horrid black race". I have never asked for anything. The truth is out there. It is too bad that some folk are too ignorant for words because what is more likely is every quarter some loon demands to us the N-word and or justify slavery in recent times.

Nobody here is trying to justify slavery. The original post isn't justifying anything, only pointing out that there were also blacks who owned black slaves, something that isn't taught in school.

They are so busy justifying slavery that they ignore white supremacy and dare not consider it as the real significance of slavery in America.

Maybe, just maybe the new generation of whites in America feel defensive about being accused of crimes they didn't commit. Since most of our generation (excluding racist idiots which you can find in any culture) doesn't see ourselves ever owning slaves or supporting the idea of racism, we just might feel like the guilt is being pushed onto us without having done anything to deserve it.This guilt is being taught in many schools across the nation, so it's not easy for somebody who hasn't yet had the opportunity to discuss it, to ignore that it exists. Hence the "beating of a dead horse".

Just the fact that you point out white supremacy is enough to tell me you believe it exists, which then tells me you must feel oppressed by it,... which then tells me you must not be all too happy with whites,.... which then says to me that maybe I should feel guilty for being white and part of a race that once upon a time traded slaves (much like some African tribes still do to this day).

Good luck I am just glad that I hold degrees and run my business just so.

Enough already!

My friends and family work and have the sort of education that most can only dream of so reparations are not the topic du jour ever. Nor do we discuss evil whites . we just keep waving as we rise above them.

edit on 21-1-2011 by tiger5 because: (no reason given)

edit on 21-1-2011 by tiger5 because: typo

edit on 21-1-2011 by tiger5 because: (no reason given)

I'm glad you feel like you don't need reparations to survive, even though at the beginning of your post it sounds to me like you believe reparations should have been given. I'm happy to hear that you were able to obtain higher education, and run a successful business. Good for you! That's what everyone should do regardless of skin color.
That last part, are you suggesting white people are evil?

Your titile captured my attention, but then you said this. If he was a slave already then how could he have been the "first" to own one in America? After reading more of the thread though all became more clear.

Originally posted by SamTGonzalez
There he grew tobacco and corn. He was also able to own several head of cattle while still a slave.

Have you seen this article in october 2010. Goes to show how history can get distorted the more it's re-written. Washington Post

A textbook distributed to Virginia fourth-graders says that thousands of African Americans fought for the South during the Civil War -- a claim rejected by most historians but often made by groups seeking to play down slavery's role as a cause of the conflict.

Star.
Bzzzzzzz

reply to post by 2manyquestions

Please do not get me started on the miseducation of our children. Mine were not educated in the USA thank god. Slavery is an important topic as it is a very recent and was a necessary stage in the funding of the industrial revolution. It steams me when both tribes of idiots interpret slavery the wrong way. On my right ( and that is no coincidence) we have the white supremacist tribe who are as asinine as their dear cousins on the other side the Pan Afrikanists who have their own brand of idiocy but never go back to Afrika.

The economics of slavery has nothing to do with which families owned slaves capital flowed the same way. Where did the capital go? It was absorbed into the American economy and went on to make America great.

The slaves were transferred under horrendous circumstances. With high mortality. Treatment in the new world was very bad but there were also relatively good slave owners.

However let me put slavery in context. During the slave era women were chattel Many white were kept under an almost feudal system where by the TPTB (white) at the time had absolute power over poor whites. Life was cheap for whites as well as blacks. In some cases poor whites were on a par with blacks in terms of work conditions and life expectancy.

So it was never ever the slavery that was the problem. The problems was white supremacy.

en.wikipedia.org...

Without systemic white supremacy there could not have been any moral justification for modern people enslaving their fellow human being. I am beginning to wonder what you were taught in your studies?

White supremacy is the belief and promotion of the belief that white people are superior to people of other racial backgrounds. In the context of slavery it was a simple situation that black people were held to be inferior to whites. Now this looks mildly offensive until you look at the justification of slavery.

Enter Bartolome de Las Casas champions of the South American Indians who promoted the notion that black people were better candidates for slavery as they had no souls due to the hamitic curse. I have never forgivne xtianity for their monstrous acts of which this has to be one.

So after slavery did white supremacy evaporate like a light dew on a hot morning in Texas? Nope. In fact white supremacy was the engine behind racists up to now.

The black freedom movements made significant victories in the sixties and seventies via violent and nonviolent strategies.

We live in different times now. What has happened is that there are still groups of white supremacists peddling their outmoded and useless philosophy. These people are of poor intellect but can be physically intimidating to some people. Not every black person is like me.

The thing that is most overlooked in the whole slavery thing is the Jewish role.

It is no coincidence that Newport rhode island had the highest jewish population, oldest synogogue, and was the center of the N. American slave trade.

The biggest trader was Lopez. A jew.

Of course Amistad the movie, directed by Speilberg, made it out to be a total white christian affair. Strange.

Originally posted by tiger5
reply to post by 2manyquestions

 

Please do not get me started on the miseducation of our children. Mine were not educated in the USA thank god. Slavery is an important topic as it is a very recent and was a necessary stage in the funding of the industrial revolution. It steams me when both tribes of idiots interpret slavery the wrong way. On my right ( and that is no coincidence) we have the white supremacist tribe who are as asinine as their dear cousins on the other side the Pan Afrikanists who have their own brand of idiocy but never go back to Afrika.

You know what they say, every village has it's village idiot.

The economics of slavery has nothing to do with which families owned slaves capital flowed the same way. Where did the capital go? It was absorbed into the American economy and went on to make America great.

By that logic we can argue that any prosperity anywhere in the world was achieved through slavery and on the backs of the poor working class. It may be true, but it's how the human world functions at this point in time. Is it right? No. Of course not. Does it continue to happen? Hell yes. Are you and I profiting from it? Yes. Whether you're black, white, Asian or Latino, if you live in the U.S. you are profiting from your American ancestors who lived and died to make this country what it is today. In fact if you are using your computer, you may be profiting from the African slave labor this very moment, because the components from which your computer is manufactured were mined and produced by people who are treated like slaves, and paid next to nothing for their hard work. Congratulations.

The slaves were transferred under horrendous circumstances. With high mortality. Treatment in the new world was very bad but there were also relatively good slave owners.

However let me put slavery in context. During the slave era women were chattel Many white were kept under an almost feudal system where by the TPTB (white) at the time had absolute power over poor whites. Life was cheap for whites as well as blacks. In some cases poor whites were on a par with blacks in terms of work conditions and life expectancy.

So it was never ever the slavery that was the problem. The problems was white supremacy.

en.wikipedia.org...

Explain something to me. How could white supremacy be the problem, when you claim that rich whites kept the poor blacks AND POOR WHITES down? Were they racist against their own kind? It sounds like a class issue to me. Slovaks and Hungarians are white people. Why was one group of white people trying to enslave the other? It certainly wasn't racism. It was the need for cheap labor and desire for more land that drove them to enslave. In order to convince its' citizenry that it was O.K., they tried to dehumanize the Slavs. It's what enemies do.

Slavery is not a racist issue in other parts of the world. The reason slavery in America began to take on racist tones is because when white Christians questioned the validity of enslaving black Africans (who were considered to also be children of God), they were told by their preachers and pastors that blacks were not like whites, they were closely related to animals,.. and as most Catholics know, according to their faith animals do not have a soul. Crooked scientists also stepped in, and tried to make blacks less than human by comparing skull sizes. They intentionally found the smallest tribe in Africa, and compared their skulls to the skulls of whites.. which happened to be nearly twice as big. This dehumanized blacks and helped some whites feel better about enslaving blacks. Dehumanization is rule #1. when you want to enslave a group. With blacks it was somewhat easier to do, because of the obvious difference in skin color. Had Africa been full of white tribes, they would have dehumanized them too, but it would have been a little more difficult to pull off.

Slave trade was an industry fighting for survival in the 18th and 19th century. Today we hear propaganda from all sides as some industries (oil and global warming) try to justify their existence. Same thing happened with the slave industry in America. Dehumanizing of blacks by a select group of individuals was all in the name of saving their well-to-do business. Not all whites were buying into it, (just like we here at ATS don't buy into every propaganda issued by our Government or Scientific groups) but that was the atmosphere back then. If people weren't convinced that blacks were less than human, they would not have supported and bought into it. Who do I blame? I blame the few who profited very generously from the African slave trade. They are the ones who spread lies and paid for the "research". Should we blame every German citizen for the actions of the Hitler regime? Are they all responsible, even if they never participated in instigating WW II.? Should we blame North Koreans for the actions of their glorious leader, Kim Jong Il? How about the Russian citizens for the actions of Stalin? I'm sure in small ways we can blame them, just like we can blame ourselves for the foreign policies that our Government enforces today, but in truth do you feel like you single-handedly have the power to stop it? I know I don't.

Evidently it took decades for whites to stand up for their fellow human beings and denounce the actions of their predecessors. It was a lot to overcome even for them. The point is they did it, because they wanted to do it. They saw the wrongs being done, and they stood up against it. It wasn't easy for them either, because those who did stand up many times suffered violence and hatred from their own kind, even within their families. People on both sides were tortured and died for their beliefs, all in the name of equality. That's something to be appreciated.

Without systemic white supremacy there could not have been any moral justification for modern people enslaving their fellow human being. I am beginning to wonder what you were taught in your studies?

Addressed above.

White supremacy is the belief and promotion of the belief that white people are superior to people of other racial backgrounds. In the context of slavery it was a simple situation that black people were held to be inferior to whites. Now this looks mildly offensive until you look at the justification of slavery.

Enter Bartolome de Las Casas champions of the South American Indians who promoted the notion that black people were better candidates for slavery as they had no souls due to the hamitic curse. I have never forgivne xtianity for their monstrous acts of which this has to be one.

Addressed above.

So after slavery did white supremacy evaporate like a light dew on a hot morning in Texas? Nope. In fact white supremacy was the engine behind racists up to now.

Of course it didn't disappear over night. You can't preach to a person for 60 years that the earth is flat, and then suddenly tell them it's round. Some will come to believe you, and others will demand proof. Some will never accept the new truth. It takes decades for people to adjust to their new environment. Beliefs die hard, and it takes generations for those beliefs to be shed. Expecting such beliefs to just suddenly evaporate is no less than silly.

The black freedom movements made significant victories in the sixties and seventies via violent and nonviolent strategies.

Absolutely. Remember that many whites stood at their side and fought with them.

We live in different times now. What has happened is that there are still groups of white supremacists peddling their outmoded and useless philosophy. These people are of poor intellect but can be physically intimidating to some people. Not every black person is like me.

You know, there are places in this country I wouldn't set foot in. That includes certain white, Latino and black neighborhoods. I may be white, but I can't verbalize how uncomfortable I am around white supremacists.... especially since my significant other is not white. Hateful, violent, sick people exist everywhere and in every culture. That's just the reality of our world. You are never going to rid this world of prejudice..... whether these hateful people target certain religious, racial or cultural groups. Even if we were all black or all white, you'd still find people who'd hate you for your small feet or short stature. They'd hate you for the type of food you eat or where you live. They'd hate you for the way you speak or don't speak. That's hate, buddy. That's just the way we are. We categorize. Birds of a feather flock together.

It is amazing how much you seem to agree with me.However the central issue is here

Explain something to me. How could white supremacy be the problem, when you claim that rich whites kept the poor blacks AND POOR WHITES down? Were they racist against their own kind? It sounds like a class issue to me. Slovaks and Hungarians are white people. Why was one group of white people trying to enslave the other? It certainly wasn't racism. It was the need for cheap labor and desire for more land that drove them to enslave. In order to convince its' citizenry that it was O.K., they tried to dehumanize the Slavs. It's what enemies do.

At least you, as opposed to the OP can see that the first slave owner was not a big deal in terms of social relations and the future development of slavery.

Well it was certainly a class issue as is so much in the west. However, the issue was the additional race issue which was developed at the start of slavery courtesy of the good Jesuit de las Casas. Hence poor whites had someone to dump on i.e.the slaves and later the ex slaves. The way that poor whites attacked blacks was more brutal as it was one of proximity and the sense of privelidge and entitlement not to be at the bottom of the heap in most cases. The elites really soared above both black and poor white. even now most of the ruling class treat us all in contempt. The elite detest the lower classes of which blacks are a subset that used to get an extra special oppression by dint of skin colour. Things are changing regarding racism but there are forces seeking to turn back the clock and deep recent to the civll rights gains

When I wrote about not discussing evil whites I was being sarcastic. Race is something that my black friends and I seldom discuss.as there are always more pressing items.

We are going to have to disagree regarding global warming

Originally posted by tiger5
It is amazing how much you seem to agree with me.However the central issue is here

Explain something to me. How could white supremacy be the problem, when you claim that rich whites kept the poor blacks AND POOR WHITES down? Were they racist against their own kind? It sounds like a class issue to me. Slovaks and Hungarians are white people. Why was one group of white people trying to enslave the other? It certainly wasn't racism. It was the need for cheap labor and desire for more land that drove them to enslave. In order to convince its' citizenry that it was O.K., they tried to dehumanize the Slavs. It's what enemies do.

At least you, as opposed to the OP can see that the first slave owner was not a big deal in terms of social relations and the future development of slavery.

Well it was certainly a class issue as is so much in the west. However, the issue was the additional race issue which was developed at the start of slavery courtesy of the good Jesuit de las Casas. Hence poor whites had someone to dump on i.e.the slaves and later the ex slaves. The way that poor whites attacked blacks was more brutal as it was one of proximity and the sense of privelidge and entitlement not to be at the bottom of the heap in most cases.

There's always going to be someone above and below you. I don't condone or excuse bad behavior, I just try to understand where it's coming from. Hate is a result of frustration. The owner beats on the manager, the manager beats on the employee, the employee beats on his wife, the wife beats on the child, and the child beats on the dog. Maybe the dog finds a cat to beat on right after. My point is that living conditions can either bring out the best or worst in us. The English hated the French and Italians, the Italians hated the Irish, the Irish hated the Poles, I don't know who the Poles hated, but I'm sure they found someone to dislike. Each of these groups dreamed up certain stereotypes (differences between each other) and they prodded at each other until they reached a breaking point.

I can point out historic examples in which whites brutalized other whites, and blacks brutalized other blacks. We brutalize each other on a daily basis, yet it is the white on black brutalization that receives the most attention in America. That's not to say it isn't wrong. It is VERY wrong to hate someone just for the color of their skin, or the size of their nose, or for the language they speak, but my point is that the vulnerability to violence is not a racial issue, it's a human issue. You look for the guy with the big ears to pick on, or the guy with the black skin, or the guy who wears a turban on his head. You catch my drift? Blacks were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Like an innocent victim of a drive-by shooting, blacks happened to step into the spotlight just when the opportunity of wrong-doing presented itself. Slave traders didn't trot the globe specifically in search of black people to enslave, they happened upon an opportunity in which African tribes were warring with each other, taking each other hostage and selling each other into slavery. They could have done the right thing and declined to purchase slaves, but I'm sure that if the continent of Africa happened to have yellow, white, brown or purple people who were warring with each other and selling each other into slavery, the slave traders would have bought and dehumanized them just the same. They've done it a thousand years ago, five hundred years ago, two hundred years ago, and maybe they'll do it again in the future if we let them.

I'm sure you've heard of sex slaves. There's a huge market for them. Russian white women are a big target, as are many Asian and Latino women. Even children are desired. Fact is that there are those who are mentally and morally sick, and they're O.K. with it. They enslave anyone who falls into their trap, most of them being young and female. It's time we stop focusing on the suffering of one group, and start realizing that there is a lot of suffering on all sides of the world. All we can do is fight against it.

Maybe instead of dedicating museums of tolerance to a particular culture, we should have a museum of tolerance where we introduce children and adults of all races and cultures to the suffering of everyone. We'll talk about the black slaves in America, we'll talk about Rwanda, Armenian Genocide, Jewish holocaust, Spanish Inquisition, Sunnis vs Shiites, Kosovo, Jews vs Palestinians, Chinese vs. Tibet, North Korea vs. South Korea, etc. etc. etc. Maybe then they'll realize that their group isn't the only one that's ever suffered injustice. Maybe when they stop focusing on their own pain, then they'll work together on how to eliminate hate from their every-day lives.

The elites really soared above both black and poor white. even now most of the ruling class treat us all in contempt. The elite detest the lower classes of which blacks are a subset that used to get an extra special oppression by dint of skin colour. Things are changing regarding racism but there are forces seeking to turn back the clock and deep recent to the civll rights gains

When I wrote about not discussing evil whites I was being sarcastic. Race is something that my black friends and I seldom discuss.as there are always more pressing items.

We are going to have to disagree regarding global warming

edit on 27-1-2011 by tiger5 because: typo

edit on 27-1-2011 by tiger5 because: typo

edit on 27-1-2011 by tiger5 because: (no reason given)

edit on 27-1-2011 by tiger5 because: (no reason given)

Like I've said before, we're human. We'll always believe that it is our group who is the best at this or that. Whether we categorize ourselves as rich or poor, black or white, short or tall, athletic or not, religious or atheist, republican or democrat, nerd or jock, we'll always find a way to compete with each other and tare each other apart. All I'm saying is let's not let it get to us so much. When we focus most of our energy on negative things, we forget that life could be a lot better if we moved past it and simply did the best we can. There's going to be people in the world who'll hate you for being black, or being a man, or being whatever else it is you represent. Maybe they'll hate you for your money, your house, your family, the type of car you drive. Hate will always find a reason, no matter how ridiculous it is. That's just the nature of the ignorant.

Yes we seem to be having a parallel discussion as opposed tgo a head to head conversation. I do not know what the museum of tolerance is. You imply , if I am correct that it is a museum dedicated to slavery.

Blacks were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Like an innocent victim of a drive-by shooting, blacks happened to step into the spotlight just when the opportunity of wrong-doing presented itself.

However that particular juncture in history led to the basis of slavery being present in modern museums in america. to have the human rights movement without slavery would be a ridiculous ommission. a significant percentage of the americna population are of slave decent as is a significant number of whites It is the sheer numbers that warrent numbers and education.


I fully agree that the horrors of chinese indentured labour on the railways was horrific. I also believe that tribalism was or is horrible in Africa. Slavery captured the imagination as it was recent and a major force in American life today in terms of loan words, food and heritage. fFr these reason there is scope for intelligent discussion and teaching.

I am curios as to your negative experiences.

Originally posted by tiger5
Yes we seem to be having a parallel discussion as opposed tgo a head to head conversation. I do not know what the museum of tolerance is. You imply , if I am correct that it is a museum dedicated to slavery.

Museum of tolerance focuses on the Jewish victims of the holocaust: Museum of Tolerance: "About Us" Section

Blacks were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Like an innocent victim of a drive-by shooting, blacks happened to step into the spotlight just when the opportunity of wrong-doing presented itself.

However that particular juncture in history led to the basis of slavery being present in modern museums in america. to have the human rights movement without slavery would be a ridiculous ommission. a significant percentage of the americna population are of slave decent as is a significant number of whites It is the sheer numbers that warrent numbers and education.

I'm not saying we shouldn't talk about it. I'm saying if we're going to talk about it, we also need to mention other hideous spots in our history so that everyone understands how prevalent and damaging hate is. Since we have so many immigrants in this country, it would only be fair that we focused on the guilt and suffering of all people. That way nobody is left out of the discussion. The human rights issue may have come to the forefront due to the collapse of slavery, but other human rights issues should not be left out in favor of this one issue.

I fully agree that the horrors of chinese indentured labour on the railways was horrific. I also believe that tribalism was or is horrible in Africa. Slavery captured the imagination as it was recent and a major force in American life today in terms of loan words, food and heritage. fFr these reason there is scope for intelligent discussion and teaching.

Again, I agree. It's part of history and absolutely needs to be taught. However the reason we came up on this issue in the first place, is because children in school are taught that white people brutalized black people, and white children are left to feel like the devil. You understand? In the way that the history of slavery is taught, they are made to feel guilty for the wrong-doings of some of their ancestors, in some cases having nothing in common with these slave owners other than the color of their skin. See what I'm getting at? We're talking about white guilt in America happening today. We are not proud of these horrible years in history, as I'm sure maybe you're not proud of something your ancestors may have done. We don't like to have our noses rubbed in it, and sometimes when we feel like we're being attacked, we have adverse reactions.....for example this OP. We don't like to feel like the bad guy, especially when we ourselves didn't commit any crime. These issues need to be discussed, and if we're going to battle racism, we need to make children of all colors realize that despite the fact that most of the slave owners in America were white (Anglo-Saxon), it doesn't mean that other cultures and races are immune to brutalizing people. Instead of slavery being presented as a racial issue, it needs to be presented as a human/hate issue. Maybe some will disagree with me, but that's how I look at it. I think history needs to be presented truthfully, and no important detail should be left out.

I am curios as to your negative experiences.

In regards to what? Racism? Hate? If you ask the full question, I'll try to give you an answer.

People really don't understand the big picture with slavery anyway. They think that a bunch of white Americans from the south got into boats and went to Africa and kidnapped a bunch of free men and took them home to pick cotton.

The first documented slavery started about 5000 years ago in China. It was also widespread 3000, 2000, 1000 years ago all over the world.

Most slaves from Africa were captured and sold into slavery by other Africans.

Of the slaves that were bought and sold during the time between the early 1500's and the emancipation, only about 15% of the slaves taken from Africa went to what eventually became the United States. The other 85% went to Europe, South America, The West Indies, The middle east and other parts of Africa.

The fact is that the whole world was involved in slavery and guess what? It still is.

The sex trade in the far east, russians imported to other countries to be wives and hookers, N Korea literally hires out huge numbers of slaves wholesale and they go because they get fed food, latin America -human trafficking, Africa still has a huge slave trade but now it is Moslems enslaving Christians.

The big picture is hard to take but it's still going on every day. Somehow though, the media and progressive idealism has somehow managed to place the blame and full wrath for all of slavery on white folks in the southern US.

News flash: the slavery everybody is pissed off about....history.

If you want to do something about slavery, take a look at the world today.

Again, I agree. It's part of history and absolutely needs to be taught. However the reason we came up on this issue in the first place, is because children in school are taught that white people brutalized black people, and white children are left to feel like the devil. You understand? In the way that the history of slavery is taught, they are made to feel guilty for the wrong-doings of some of their ancestors, in some cases having nothing in common with these slave owners other than the color of their skin. See what I'm getting at? We're talking about white guilt in America happening today. We are not proud of these horrible years in history, as I'm sure maybe you're not proud of something your ancestors may have done. We don't like to have our noses rubbed in it, and sometimes when we feel like we're being attacked, we have adverse reactions.....for example this OP. We don't like to feel like the bad guy, especially when we ourselves didn't commit any crime. These issues need to be discussed, and if we're going to battle racism, we need to make children of all colors realize that despite the fact that most of the slave owners in America were white (Anglo-Saxon), it doesn't mean that other cultures and races are immune to brutalizing people. Instead of slavery being presented as a racial issue, it needs to be presented as a human/hate issue. Maybe some will disagree with me, but that's how I look at it. I think history needs to be presented truthfully, and no important detail should be left out.

Boy I got the museum of tolerance wrong ! Still it is a good idea.

Slavery was a racial issue. They even developed a complex racial classification. How can you deny that?

Well I was asking about your negative experiences regarding school education. I wasn't there in the lesson so I do not know. Perhaps the real issue is one of how the subject is taught. America has made massive strides in social education over the last 20 years. It may be that there is scope for the method of education to be improved.

I know that teachers can be lazy and endlessly recycles their teaching notes year in year out. I witnessed this first hand at university. I would like to know when last was the slavery material on slavery reviewed? Does it have the correct nuances for the modern era? Was slavery dumbed down??? The simple fact is that whites did brutalise blacks and some would do so today given the chance. The other fact is that there were also whites who fought against slavery. Later on both races proved effective in brutalising each other. I think it is difficult to educate people if you alienate them. Why lull white students into feeling that white people never committed brutality when everyone else has done so in modern history?. It was always about the delivery of the lesson assuming the students were neutral. If they were racist of course they would feel resentful and forget that they were not there.

I think in an early post you misunderstood me when it came to issues of fear. I have a military background and love entrenching tools as weapons as well as variuos forms of martial arts. I believe in peace because the biggest threat is the people who rule everyone. At some stage we ordinary people will need to pull together. I tend not to worry about handling myself if attacked.

I presume that slavery was a taught as an academic course i.e. exams or essays written. I really dislike what I am hearing about miseducation in general. I agree with you about other cruel mass activities like Rwanda but believe they could be taught as personal development. Yet I must say why not have more critical thinking, maths and science that will be tghe future as opposed to slavery studies.

This is how you battle racism. You guys (humanity) messed up. We have no time machine. Let us try and move forward without anyone being racist. It is ridiculously easy to resolve if we do not have demagogues stirring up trouble. We do not need leaders. We do not need to live in each other's pockets. Integrated housing would be nice if people are all house /community proud.

reply to post by SamTGonzalez


Fantastic post!!

my family were slaves... old school- slaves,,,,
back in
Egypt.......


time to serve my present master....

Coming Dear...

star and flag,

should have been "game over"

after your op but people are still comming out against this.

what people do against the law, is a criminal matter.

geeze!