Quantum Reality

From what I've read, there are only three possible outcomes of modern quantum theory, as a valid description of reality.

1) Superdeterminism (self explanatory, no free will)

2) Multi-Worlds Theory - at every choice a new universe (absurd)

3) Transluminal Interconnectedness (with free will)

So Bell's Theorem comes alone and proves, mathematically, that the answer is number three, at least as far as we are concerned as free will causal agents of co-creation.

The implications of this are profound.

Next, if we look at Wheeler's Delayed Choice Experiment - unless time can reverse its arrow, consciousness must transcend matter in a timeless spaceless first/last cause, and there is no arrow of time.

I'll come back and post the relevant Net research, but this ought to be sufficient to get something started.

The other idea I'd like to introduce here though, is the notion that the human mind has both a classical foundation, as well as a quantum one, but that only the quantum mind, also non-localized, can freely choose, where the classical mind is nothing but an elaborate recording and reaction/response machine founded on nothing but learned behavior.

Thus, if there is a self which can stand apart from self and know the knower wno knows not, but from what is may freely choose when and how to measure, then that self, the free self, must also be timeless and spaceless and therefore, eternal.

What are your thoughts, research, etc. about this quantum reality thing?

and for those who say that quantum effects do not scale up into the macro world, first of all the macro is founded on the micro, and second, there are also experiments, which prove that the macro is as quantum in implication as the micro, and that indeed even the measurer, using the apparatus of quantum measurements, is a quantum wave of possibility him/herself.

This would or could bring us, perhaps, to an astonishing realization about our true nature as consciously aware beings embued with free will, and can't not as far as I can tell.

Hopefully, there are still some astute scientifically oriented people among the membership here who are left, who might be able to chime in on this one.. ?

Beware of Quantum Ducks, Quark Quark,lol I once saw a bumper sticker with that on there, became my favorite. If I follow your thread correctly, which is probably an enormous leap for me, you are saying that we create our reality? Are you further saying that time is non-linear? I love Quantum Physics, but I confess it gets way confusing fast. I believe that time is relative and related to the object/creature not an independant "always the same" thing.

reply to post by Iamschist


Something like that, but that time, as a measure of causation is illusory, from the POV of light, and it's all light in some form or another, so the reality, the most fundamental reality is timeless and spaceless, eternal, and being in it, so are "we" at the most fundamental level, that is for the one who is free, the choosing self, the I am of the first/last cause the "alpha and omega", where "life" then is an ongoing, continual flow and process already always occuring now but FRESH (water of life).
No arrow of time. It's hard to get. I can type but still not get it really. We think of a past as if it's "back there" and we even have the bones and the photos to prove it, but it's not there, it's always now, always was, and always will be, or so it would seem, that is if this quantum stuff can be accepted.

To be is the be perceived - that's another maxim from QM.

So from that perspective, it may be fair to say that higher self is Godself, and higher self awareness, is God-realization. That said however, I think it's important to recognize that all this is happening as an experience, relative to a very generous Absolute (Abba?). He's like always there but always disappearing, encouraging us to take our first steps into his domain, into his kingdom, all the way to the table, even hobbling or crippled as need be!

"Imagination is everything."
~ Albert Einstein


"So fear not, little ones, nor let your hearts be troubled, for it pleased the father to share his eternal kingdom with all his children!"

S&F. I always love learning about quantum mechanics. Its always a nice reminder that there's a whole lot more to reality (or less, depending on how you look at it ) than the materialistic view.

Looking forward to the rest of the thread.

I can't believe you're discussing quantum reality, yet calling multiple dimensions 'absurd'.

reply to post by BobbinHood


The main problem with this viewpoint is there's no hiding from the light of truth, for one thing, and second, we have to know that something's got to change, transfom, or to give way, and that's painful, when we apply increasing awareness, to our own selves, but that's precisely the light we need to shine the way, as a lamp unto our feet and a light unto our path.

It's simple, but not easy, to move into this new way of being - I so ADMIRE non-addicts, you have NO IDEA how lucky you are, to be already free, not enslaved and trying to get free, in my case by first freeing everyone else.

But we cannot remain in other's "dharma", without paying attention to our own, so in part I put all this stuff out there for the wrong reasons, but nevertheless that doesn't mean I'm full of # either!

Once everyone's in the doorman he too needs to go in, eh? It would hardly be fair if I was the only one to get locked out!

Originally posted by SpearMint
I can't believe you're discussing quantum reality, yet calling multiple dimensions 'absurd'.

No no, the "Multi Worlds Theory", where the universe splits at each and every decision, with the other decision not made creating another universe, with another you in it, that's all. I'm just saying that that hall of mirrors of infinite selves all making every possible choice, is absurd.

Like move your own finger, this way or THAT way, and every time, imagine that you just divided the whole universe, with another you going in the other direction, absurd like that.

That said, quantum computers are able to use the multi-worlds theory for instantaneous calculations, although I'm not sure that's been done yet ie: where a quantum computer does a calc it would take a classical computer an infinite to do, or an indefinite time frame longer than the anticipated lifespan of the known universe.

It's possible that all three are happening in some strange and inconceivable way I suppose, heck in the quantum realm, anything at all is at least possible.

I think I have freewill... it's a nice concept. Yet, I realize the characteristics, events, and coincidences of my life are unmistakeably planned. This is more of an energetic knowing, instead of purely intellectual.

Science and mathematics are limited. Period. Earth is actually about to shed these old paradigms.

To understand the concept of freewill, one must consider metaphysical concepts such as the higher self, etc... There is much more beyond the physical incarnation. Once you align with your 'path' there is a sense of unparalleled grace.

I wonder how numerology and astronomy fit into the mix. For me, these only reinforce the idea of orchestrated incarnations.

Originally posted by Mayura
I think I have freewill... it's a nice concept. Yet, I realize the characteristics, events, and coincidences of my life are unmistakeably planned. This is more of an energetic knowing, instead of purely intellectual.

I feel the same exact way throughout my life.

I agree with most of the things previously said. There is a much deeper intelligence to this existence that can be, to a certain extent, explained. It's all mysterious and when you experience things that make you a believer in some type of conscious after death, or at least believe it could be possible, it opends all the doors.

We can be more than the image of God, if we perceive ourselves to see nothing thus being able to see everything? This sounds like the destruction of Ego? Or defocusing your eyes to see an abstract? An eternal "knowledge" which always has been, eternal? Is this what is being said?

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
From what I've read, there are only three possible outcomes of modern quantum theory, as a valid description of reality.

1) Superdeterminism (self explanatory, no free will)

2) Multi-Worlds Theory - at every choice a new universe (absurd)

3) Transluminal Interconnectedness (with free will)

So Bell's Theorem comes alone and proves, mathematically, that the answer is number three, at least as far as we are concerned as free will causal agents of co-creation.

The implications of this are profound.

Next, if we look at Wheeler's Delayed Choice Experiment - unless time can reverse its arrow, consciousness must transcend matter in a timeless spaceless first/last cause, and there is no arrow of time.

I'll come back and post the relevant Net research, but this ought to be sufficient to get something started.

The other idea I'd like to introduce here though, is the notion that the human mind has both a classical foundation, as well as a quantum one, but that only the quantum mind, also non-localized, can freely choose, where the classical mind is nothing but an elaborate recording and reaction/response machine founded on nothing but learned behavior.

Thus, if there is a self which can stand apart from self and know the knower wno knows not, but from what is may freely choose when and how to measure, then that self, the free self, must also be timeless and spaceless and therefore, eternal.

What are your thoughts, research, etc. about this quantum reality thing?

and for those who say that quantum effects do not scale up into the macro world, first of all the macro is founded on the micro, and second, there are also experiments, which prove that the macro is as quantum in implication as the micro, and that indeed even the measurer, using the apparatus of quantum measurements, is a quantum wave of possibility him/herself.

This would or could bring us, perhaps, to an astonishing realization about our true nature as consciously aware beings embued with free will, and can't not as far as I can tell.

Hopefully, there are still some astute scientifically oriented people among the membership here who are left, who might be able to chime in on this one.. ?

edit on 11-1-2011 by NewAgeMan because: damn typo

If you are going to talk about quantum theory, you have to include String Theory into this as well.



The idea is that with string theory, all matter is tied together at the smallest level. Strings are basically frequencies and frequencies are different vibrational states of energy!

That said, vibrations of energy can be positive or negative depending on the state at which your body and mind harmonize with the world (notice I didn't say reality). Reality is different for everyone. Therefore, you create your own reality, hence your own world. If you are in harmony with positive energy, and in quantum like energies attract like energies, therefore you create your own positive world, dream, creation.

To Iamschist, I have always said this to myself which corresponds to Quantum Theory and "higher-self':

You are the creator of your own reality, your own world, and therefore your kingdom. No one can create this for you, only you. So if you want to attract things, make sure you harmonize your energies to attract the likes of you.

reply to post by trekwebmaster

Close, except that I'm also suggesting that the Absolute is the original creative space and the framework within which and through which it may be conintually explored and known ever more deeply, but never in it's totality, being infinite, and therefore, never surpassed, or usurpted in any way.

Another way of thinking of this is in terms of something called Bhakti or devotional loving serve to another, which mimics this same invitation to sharing or relationship, whereby the experience sought, is love, and for love to be love, there must always be a lover and beloved other. So while the absolute cannot be understood, it can be realized, or experienced, through Bhakti (a Hindu concept, look it up).

To remain in the "flow" so to speak, it would also be neccessary to renouce from all attachment to outcomes, giving up the fruits of our labours, or the "first fruits of thine increase", so as to remain, unattached, and desireless, having everything already of course, by having placed one's heart first on the kingdom of heaven (eternal life) so to speak, after which anything and every thing, is then added, or recieved as an added bonus, but not sought.

This leads me to the idea of serendipity, or the faculty for discovering hidden treasure NOT sought after.

But for all this to work, I am convinced that there needs to be an indespensible I-thou relationship WITH the absolute, which will always create the frame for mutual exploration in eternity, why? For nothing more than FUN it would seem, or for creativity, and to have a varied experience, and that's nice, and very generous..!

reply to post by Skywatcher2011


We'd have to like ourselves then I would imagine, if we're to attract anything that is enjoyable..! Ha, thanks, that's a neat spin on the "Law of Attraction", which has nothing to do with wish fulfillment in attachment to a specific outcome, but one where that which we appreciate, appreciates. We cannot begin from a position of a lacking of anything, or we'll never get to recieve anything fun. So what I hear you saying, is that to recieve God (all good things in store) we must be willing to recieve ourselves, as well as our neighbor as self - and even our enemy as self..? (that is where it starts getting trickier but there's probably a new spin on that someone will come along with, involving the secret of non judgement and mercy).

Needless to say, we cannot be divided, and always choose saying yes when we mean yes, and no when we mean no, never "maybe"... which breaks us up in a scattering effect, or our free will and freedom to choose, so to KNOW what we're wanting, that is always critical, but at the same time, give up out attachments to ourcomes, and simply be engaged in the flow of creative action, for the sake of the creative action itself and nothing more.

Ghandi when asked to summarize his life and philosophy in a single sentence replied "I can do it in three words: Renounce and Enjoy"

Thus, if there is a self which can stand apart from self and know the knower wno knows not, but from what is may freely choose when and how to measure, then that self, the free self, must also be timeless and spaceless and therefore, eternal.

What are your thoughts, research, etc. about this quantum reality thing?

This sounds very similar to "Walking In Christ" or a state of a person "In Christ." This would infer that "the self" is aware and being merged with "the free self," ultimately to ascend to eternity where divisions of reality and quantum reality have no barriers? Could this be interpreted as being a singularity?

I can see how "renounce and enjoy," would apply. Instead of renouncing everything and changing all at once, perhaps to scale it down would work. When a person "wishes" or "prays" for something, it should always be of a positive nature, helpful, compassionate, never do harm, for others before even considering praying for things for themselves. This is charity and is considered higher as a virtue than any other; "Pay it forward."

There would be no want if everyone considered their neighbor first.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by Skywatcher2011

 

We'd have to like ourselves then I would imagine, if we're to attract anything that is enjoyable..! Ha, thanks, that's a neat spin on the "Law of Attraction", which has nothing to do with wish fulfillment in attachment to a specific outcome, but one where that which we appreciate, appreciates. We cannot begin from a position of a lacking of anything, or we'll never get to recieve anything fun. So what I hear you saying, is that the recieve God we must be willing to recieve ourselves, as well as our neighbor as self - and even our enemy as self..? (that is where it starts getting trickier but there's probably a new spin on that someone will come along with, involving the secret of non judgement and mercy).

Well, if you "receive" yourself you have accepted your own reality. Remember when you think of God you are thinking in terms of spirituality or deity. That is different from using laws of quantum physics to explain how you perceive your world to be and or how it was created.

However, I will agree with you on the fact that we are all human being on here (hopefully), and that we are all the same (in physical form). Moreover, this subject is very broad and so we must be careful not to stray too far off into right field...otherwise we miss the main points.

"Forgiveness is divine, but never pay full price for late pizza," Michelangelo (TMNT)

reply to post by trekwebmaster

Yes, provided that the indespensible i-thou relationship with the Absolute (infinity) is always maintained, forever avoiding another "fall".

It is much better to wrestle WITH God, then to rebel against God imho, and he can handle it of all beings, surely?

Creative action and homorous prior enjoyment, or good clean FUN and fellowship, relationship and family, these are all the highest joys in the heavenly household of God's eternal kingdom, but we're supposed to come to the party properly attired, and we need to wash our "clothes" or our spiritual garments, so as to be pleasing in the sight of God.

I suspect that what God dispises most, is our fear of him, our terror, and I'm pretty sure that ANY approach will do, and that's what they say in AA, so no particular doctrine is even needed.

But the self as God people, I'm pretty sure they'll have quite a bit more work to do, before etering into this co-creative participative framework, because that's highly inappropriate, insulting, arrogant, even insane, and motivated by an unncessary spirit of rebellion, which is ridiculous, in the very face of what's been freely given!

reply to post by Skywatcher2011


ewwww nothing personal, but I do not like or accept String theory. It is messy. Above all I believe the universe is elegant. I am with Einstein and Schrodinger.

PS Skywatcher, there are no "likes of me" I be the one and only, unique in all the world

It's sad, as a race of people, created in the image of God, cannot see how much He loves His children. Always forgiving, as long as a person is willing to make recompense and strive to do better. How He must think highly of us as to have sold everything he had to purchase a pearl of great price, which is humanity.

How everyone has the capacity to live "In Christ," in fellowship and love. Now all the parables make sense; The Prodigal Son, The Trinity, The Christ, and how elegantly and freely-given this great gift of love is. Everything from sand to heavens has been carefully crafted to show this love.

Even our numbering systems and languages are made to remind us of our birthright, and we fail to hear the knock on the door, every time, every teaching which makes it clear to be hospitable to strangers. Our neighbors, and ultimately, our own selves. Now I know what the phrase truly means "to be made in the image of God."

I don't know how to relate this in quantum physics, there really is not need to, since the "leap of faith" is already taken, at this point, everything just "is." Everything truly is "Alpha and Omega."

12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Re: The Absolute

"The God Theory" by Bernard Haisch
www.amazon.com...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1249274834&sr=8-1

Haisch is an astrophysicist whose professional positions include Staff Scientist at the Lockheed Martin Solar and Astrophysics Laboratory, Deputy Director for the Center for Extreme Ultraviolet Astrophysics at the University of California, Berkeley, and Visiting Fellow at the Max-Planck Institute for Extraterrestrial Physics in Garching, Germany. His work has led to close involvement with NASA; he is the author of over 130 scientific papers; and was the Scientific Editor of the Astrophysical Journal for nine years, as well as the editor in chief of the Journal of Scientific Exploration.

an excerpt

If you think of whitte light as a metaphor of infinite, formless potential, the colors on a slide or frame of film become a structured reality grounded in the polarity that comes about through intelligent subtraction from that absolute formless potential. It results from the limitation of the unlimited. I contend that this metaphor provides a comprehensible theory for the creation of a manifest reality (our universe) from the selective limitation of infinite potential (God)...
If there exists an absolute realm that consists of infinite potential out of which a created realm of polarity emerges, is there any sensible reason not to call this "God"? Or to put it frankly, if the absolute is not God, what is it? For our purposes here, I will indentify the Absolute with God. More precisely I will call the Absolute the Godhead. Applying this new terminology to the optics analogy, we can conclude that our physical universe comes about when the Godhead selectively limits itself, taking on the role of Creator and manifesting a realm of space and time and, within that realm, filtering out some of its own infinite potential...
Viewed this way, the process of creation is the exact opposite of making something out of nothing. It is, on the contrary, a filtering process that makes something out of everything. Creation is not capricious or random addition; it is intelligent and selective subtraction. The implications of this are profound.

If the Absolute is the Godhead, and if creation is the process by which the Godhead filters out parts of its own infinite potential to manifest a physical reality that supports experience, then the stuff that is left over, the residue of this process, is our physical universe, and ourselves included. We are nothing less than a part of that Godhead - quite literally.

Next, by Ervin Laszlo

Science and the Akashic Field, an Integral Theory of Everything, 2004
www.amazon.com...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1249275852&sr=8-1

And, his other seminal work
Science and the Reenchantment of the Cosmos: The Rise of the Integral Vision of Reality
www.amazon.com...=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1249275852&sr=8-6

Ervin Laszlo is considered one of the foremost thinkers and scientists of our age, perhaps the greatest mind since Einstein. His principal focus of research involves the Zero Point Field. He is the author of around seventy five books (his works having been translated into at least seventeen languages), and he has contributed to over 400 papers. Widely considered the father of systems philosophy and general evolution theory, he has worked as an advisor to the Director-General of the United Nations Educational, Scientific, and Cultural Organization. He was also nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize in both 2004 and 2005. A multidisciplinarian, Laszlo has straddled numerous fields, having worked at universities as a professor of philosophy, music, futures studies, systems science, peace studies, and evolutionary studies. He was a sucessful concert pianist until he was thirty eight.

In his view, the zero-point field (or the Akashic Field, as he calls it) is quite literally the "mind of God".

Naming Hal Puthoff, Roger Penrose, Fritz-Albert Popp, and a handful of others as "front line investigators", Laszlo quotes Puthoff who says of the new scientific paradigm:

[What] would emerge would be an increased understanding that all of us are immersed, both as living and physical beings, in an overall interpenetrating and interdependant field in ecological balance with the cosmos as a whole, and that even the boundary lines between the physical and "metaphysical" would dissolve into a unitary viewpoint of the universe as a fluid, changing, energetic/informational cosmological unity."

an excert from Science and the Akashic Field, an Integral Theory of Everything

Akasha (a . ka . sha) is a Sanskrit word meaning "ether": all-pervasive space. Originally signifying "radiation" or "brilliance", in Indian philosophy akasha was considered the first and most fundamental of the five elements - the others being vata (air), agni (fire), ap (water), and prithivi (earth). Akasha embraces the properties of all five elements: it is the womb from which everything we percieve with our senses has emerged and into which everything will ultimately re-descend. The Akashic Record (also called The Akashic Chronicle) is the enduring record of all that happens, and has ever happened, in space and time."

Laszlo's view of the history of the universe is of a series of universes that rise and fall, but are each "in-formed" by the existence of the previous one. In Laszlo's mind, the universe is becoming more and more in-formed, and within the physical universe, matter (which is the crystallization of intersecting pressure waves or an interference pattern moving through the zero-point field) is becoming increasing in-formed and evolving toward higher forms of consciousness and realization.

God cannot be explained. He cannot be argued about. He cannot be theorized, nor can He be discussed and understood. God can only be lived... (Bhakti..?)

To understand the infinite, eternal Reality is not the GOAL of individualized beings in the illusion of Creation, because the Reality can never be understood (and why would we want to and ruin the suprise)l it is to be realized by conscious experience.

Therefore, the GOAL is to realize the Reality and attain the I am of God state in human form."

~ Meher Baba (parentheses added by me)

The ONLY thing I would add to Adi Da's argument, is the recognition of the relative I-thou relationship WITH the Absolute, which makes the experience possible to begin with, thus providing us if not with an object of devotion, or a "thing" neccessarily (although I personally choose here to adopt Christ as a "person" or perhaps I should say allow myself to be adopted by) then a "channel" of mutual gratitude and appreciation, and hey "God" as the Absolute must appreciate us too, or we wouldn't BE here to begin with, as a varied expression of the Absolute or the Godhead.

So I like to say and maintain, that we are not the Godhead, not even our highest self, which to be an Absolute must always and forever be something we can explore and move into so to speak, but are variables of a supreme value, like a chip off the old block, who isn't all that different from our TRUE self to begin with, made by consciousness for consciousness (sounds like one of those stores with trendy clothes!).


"Good is good for goodness sake, and love is it's own reward."
~ Anonymous

It aint "rocket science" in the final analysis! Thank God!


It is also important, I feel, to remember, that the "wisdom of the ages" is NOT an imposition on the mind of man, it's our natural state of mind, what Suzuki Roshi calls "the beginners mind", and like Adi Da points out, it's happy mind, a humorous mind, at ease within itself, with no height, no depth, no hot or cold, but passionate, and neither luke warm either, never!

Re-cognition ...



"Have you not KNOWN? Have you not been TOLD, since the very foundations of the Earth!"
~ John the Baptist, from his dungeon, purportedly, to King Herod (who was #ting his pants no doubt)

Well we are not King Herod, and neither are we the "elite" with whom Jesus was pissedoff at, no we are the very same little man, even the downtrodden, who he gave thanks to his father in heaven were the recipients of his word.

And please, stop before reacting, and thinking this is preseletizing on my part, while "hijacking" quantum physics, that's not it at all, I am only wanting to be as helpful as possible in any way possible, given what's at stake and the importance and the sheer beauty of the message, or the realization, the God-realization, without the dogma.

So the dogma isn't crushing the karma here, there's a lifting of "religious" pressures and such craziness, that was never the original intent to begin with anyway, not the truth, or the reality which was being conveyed.

Because you must remember - I "new age man" don't have have a single original idea of my own. This is not about me, but about "we".

Let us sit down then at the table and "grok" together! Amen?