Hell and the one who runs the place

According to some stories, God cast out the Enemy from Heaven. The Enemy then went to/created? Hell.
The Enemey is at odds with God.
Anyone who defies God is sent to Hell to suffer for all enternity in a lake of fire. Why would the Enemy torment anyone who comes to Hell? What would be in it for the Enemy? Why wouldn't the Enemy reward them and show them how good it is to be away from God or some such.
If they do get tormented I would rather say that the Enemy is doing God's will.

According to some stories those who are against God Serves the Enemy. But isn't one of the reasons the Enemy abandoned God that he didn't want to be a servant. Why would the Enemy allow anyone to serve in the same way like those who serve God?

Is the Enemy really God's "Evil twin"?

Isaiah 45:7 in the King James Version reads, “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”


You could argue that the One who runs the place(Hell), is having the most thankless Job of all creation. Who could accept a Job where everyone spits in your direction, curses at your name and loathe you very existence?
Who will sacrifice them selves for the sake of everyone else?

reply to post by scratchmane


Actually that's a misconception that Satan is the ruler of Hell. In the Bible it says this about Satan.

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. - 2 Corinthians 4:4

And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. - Job 2:2

Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour - 1 Peter 5:8

And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. - Luke 10:18

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. - Revelation 20:10

The Bible says Satan walks about the Earth seeking to deceive people. He isn't in Hell torturing people, thats a pop culture view of him. In Revelation it says that he will be thrown into the lake of fire and be tormented for all eternity. Satan doesn't get a free pass nor was he given a hell dimension kingdom to rule over. In the end he will be cast into Hell fire like the rest of the sinners that reject Christ. His days are numbered, that's why he seeks to mislead people so they can suffer with him.

The bible chronology on this point seems to be vague, as is also the precise nature of an alleged 'adversary'.

Some readers may actually be directly familiar with the bible-texts on it, but to make sure that I also address those who have their information via a preacher-man or the soap-serial "It's all your own fault", I'll refer to episode 8 or 9 (I believe) in the serial; you remember the back-to-the-ole-plantation scene, where Massa discovers, that the slaves had used the 'free will' they had been given on the condition, that they never use it.

Well, in that scene there's an adversary involved, the talking snake with legs. On the Massa-side there are some 'us' (not just Massa alone), and with some lenience to popular christian interpretations, these 'us' can be guessed to be 'angels'. And as told elsewhere in the good, but confusing, book (or serial), a third of these 'angels' at an indeterminate point in- or outside time revolted (not a mean feat for beings said to be without 'free will'/initiative) lead by Lucifer. They were consequently kicked out from the ole plantation.

If this first war on the plantation happened BEFORE episode 8 or 9, the adversary could have been Lucifer, who disguised as a legged snake could have sneaked back into the plantation without the omniscient Massa noticing it. (The plot seems to be a bit weak here, but what can you expect from a serial with ideological implications? Certainly not logic; persuasive drama is what we look for).

If the first war on the plantation happened AFTER episode 8 ot 9, it could ofcourse still have been Lucifer rehearsing for the real thing or another adversary. But brethren and sistren, for sure it couldn't have been Satan, as this gentleman (or woman for the real woman-haters amongst christians) somewhat later turns up in the story. Not as a single individual, but rather more like a representative of group of plantation bureaucrats called satans, whose function was to act like something between a public prosecutor and an agent provocateur; on relatively good terms with Massa.

It's only later, that satans become Satan and as Lucifer turns into a fullscale adversary. So apparantly the adversary scenario isn't quite simple, but requires more scholastic doctrines and schisms, before it's answered (I haven't mentioned all of the adversaries, so as not to confuse anyone)

My children, that was the lesson for today. Next time we may talk about the two different hells, with their different micro-climates.

Glory be.

reply to post by bogomil


Episodes 8 and 9? What are you talking about? Plantations?

Quote:

["Episodes 8 and 9? What are you talking about? Plantations?"]

Are you serious?

reply to post by scratchmane

Is the Enemy really God's "Evil twin"?

According to my study of the Occult Sciences they are brothers, and may be twins. I know the God(s) of the Bible are actually ET beings, so this could be true, especially if one reads into the Sumerian texts, the stories of Enki and Ea, Anu and Marduk. They practiced family infighting and incest on a grand scale, much like their followers today, the Supreme Rich Elite Bankers.

Re Autowrench

I can support your post, in that it's a reasonable working hypothesis worth considering. Though I'm uncertain about the details (e.g.ETs or hyperdimensionals), the beings or entities from especially OT could very well be non-human species, which have included earth as a colony in some form of empire (empires? There seem to be several different species sharing the cake).

Hence my 'plantation' metaphor, which obviously is outside the knowledge or options of many of the christianities.

In such a scenario a major part of doctrinal religion will just be a tool for social engineering, including carrots and whips.

But it's all been said before; the problem with relating to doctrines is, that they are inflexible, repeating the same message eternally, and so the answering criticism will be equally narrow.

This doctrinal attitude of repetitiveness sometimes surprises me. If people have decided not to buy, what they consider a low-grade product, excessive sales-talk will only be an annoyance, adding not only to the suspicions on the product itself, but also to the sales-persons pushing it. But some people never learn, it's probably part of their specific mindsets.

"It is better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven."

I believe this quote started the idea that Satan is the ruler of Hell. It is from "Paradise Lost" by John Milton.

The idea that Hell is a kingdom ruled over by Satan is a concept not supported by the Bible or Qur'an.
Hell is a prison... a torture chamber created by the Lord Almighty; God. He created Hell, not Satan.
Satan will be tortured and tormented in Hell, not given ruler's status.

Originally posted by scratchmane

You could argue that the One who runs the place(Hell), is having the most thankless Job of all creation. Who could accept a Job where everyone spits in your direction, curses at your name and loathe you very existence?
Who will sacrifice them selves for the sake of everyone else?

God says He created special angels for Hell. Angels whose sole purpose is to torture and torment. Angels don't have to worry about being hated for being the tormentors of Hell because they lack Free Will.... angels are beings of light created by God to be His servants and messengers. Since they don't have Free Will, they are anxious to fulfill God's every command... even torturing occupants of Hell.

reply to post by Sahabi


If thou couldst see how the angels receive those who disbelieve, smiting faces and their backs and (saying): Taste the punishment of burning! -Quran 8:50

We have appointed hell a dungeon for the disbelievers. -Quran 17:8

Re Sahabi

You wrote:

["Angels don't have to worry about being hated for being the tormentors of Hell because they lack Free Will.... angels are beings of light created by God to be His servants and messengers. Since they don't have Free Will, they are anxious to fulfill God's every command... even torturing occupants of Hell."]

Do you go through life with earplugs and dark glasses? Or do you just ignore inconvenient opposition?

I have already referred to the angel/free will situation in a post above, but as you either haven't read the thread or choose to ignore what's outside the holy bubble, I will repeat the problem manifested in your postulates:

How can beings without 'free will', "anxious to follow commands", initiate a rebellion?

And consequently: Will even small doses of logic blow a fuse somewhere along the line of presenting doctrinal absolutes?

reply to post by bogomil


Because I understand angels to be light beings lacking free will, while the rebellious deceivers and adversaries are smokeless fire beings with free will called jinn. I understand Satan to be a jinn, not an angel.

Re Sahabi

You wrote:

["Because I understand angels to be light beings lacking free will, while the rebellious deceivers and adversaries are smokeless fire beings with free will called jinn. I understand Satan to be a jinn, not an angel"]

I understand..... you are a muslim.

But then, where did the djinns/jinns come from?

I am not a Muslim.
Jinn come from the same place angels and humans came from; God's creation.

Originally posted by TinFoilHatMan55
reply to post by Sahabi

 

If thou couldst see how the angels receive those who disbelieve, smiting faces and their backs and (saying): Taste the punishment of burning! -Quran 8:50

We have appointed hell a dungeon for the disbelievers. -Quran 17:8

Pointless drivel....

So as many others tend to say..."Believe what we say or else you'll burn"

Any religion that uses this style of fear tactics knows nothing of God...

Its funny though... i wonder how many gulible people fall for this every day....i'd love to see that number

Re Sahabi

You wrote:

["I am not a Muslim.
Jinn come from the same place angels and humans came from; God's creation."]


You're not a muslim, but you introduce elements from islam/arab folklore. These non-christian elements in the form of djinns/jinns you put into the biblical context of a 'war in heaven' instead of the original angels mentioned in the bible (you know the rebellious third).

So there were djinns in the christian heaven, only the bible forgets to mention the distinction between them and angels; or have you all on your own created a syncretistic christian/muslim hybrid? Or was there no rebellion in heaven after all?

For some people such things are important to know, e.g. as when you in a post-divorce depression consider becoming a christian from sheer existential desperation. You would want your new life to be more functional than your old.

reply to post by bogomil


I used to be Christian.
I used to be Muslim.

If one was to study core elements of the 3 faiths of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, it becomes quite clear these religions are extremely related. As far as me creating a Christian/Muslim hybrid understanding, this is quite incorrect. Both these religions are already hybrids of even earlier religions. So the hybridization is not of my doing, I never created a religion drawing from Sumerian and Babylonian sources like Monotheism has.

I chose to discuss elements of Islam in this thread because Christianity is not the only group that believes in Satan and Hell.
I choose to understand Satan as a jinn instead of an angel because it makes more sense.
I choose to understand the Islamic explanation of Satan, jinn, and devils because it makes more sense.
I choose to understand the explanation of Hell according to Islam because it makes more sense.

"So there were djinns in the christian heaven" -bogomil

I never been to Heaven to know this, but that's what God says in the Qur'an.
And if this is a Christian Heaven and not only the Heaven of the Almighty Creator, then I guess Moses, Adam, Noah, Abraham, any Hebrew Israelite, etc. won't be there either because they were not Christians.

"Or was there no rebellion in heaven after all?" -bogomil

You tell me. When did his rebellion and/or 'war in heaven' occur?
Was it before Adam was created? Was it as a result of the events in Eden? Or was it after Satan lost his friendly bet to God over the man Job? Add Job into the Satan mix and Christianity's understanding of Satan just doesn't make logical or chronological sense.

"the bible forgets to mention the distinction between them and angels" -bogomil

The Bible forgets to mention all sorts of things! When God created man in Genesis where is the mention of dinosaurs? In the book of John when Jesus is called the "only begotten son" of God, the New Testament forgets to mention David is the begotten son of god (Psalm 2:7), or that Israel (aka Jacob) is the first born son of God (Exodus 4:22), etc., etc., etc.!

"For some people such things are important to know, e.g. as when you in a post-divorce depression consider becoming a christian from sheer existential desperation. You would want your new life to be more functional than your old." -bogomil

If you need to know things AND have it make sense, any religion is the wrong way to go anyway! Upon questioning, reasoning, and rationale.. an individual is quite often shut up with the answers "faith" or "you just have to believe."

If any person is seeking religion out of depression or desperation, I would suggest looking at religion in philosophical terms... to study philosophy... to dig deep within one's own self and mustering up the bravado, strength, and courage that flows through our veins from our ancestors of eons past. I lack empathy and sympathy for my fellow humans regarding certain issues, but I am not cold-hearted. Sorrow, depression, fear, uncertainty, anger, and hate are counter-productive to spiritual strength... not emotions I want to baby or cater to. Anything done as a result of these emotions should be questioned anyway. Haven't our elders and ancestors always told us to not make decisions unless we are level-headed? Jumping into a religion that doesn't make sense simply because one is depressed is not the way. Look within.



And where are your rebuttals are arguments leading anyway? The OP is regarding Satan and the rulers of Hell. As I have stated, this is a false belief introduced by John Milton in "Paradise Lost," not the Bible. God is the Creator of Hell, God is the ruler of Hell, and He has issued angels therein to torture the wicked amongst mankind, Satan, and jinn (devils).

Re Sahabi

Please accept my apologies for a 2-3 days belated answer. You deserve a well-considered one, something I can't shoot of from the hip just now.

Re Sahabi

You wrote:

["You tell me. When did his rebellion and/or 'war in heaven' occur?
Was it before Adam was created? Was it as a result of the events in Eden? Or was it after Satan lost his friendly bet to God over the man Job? Add Job into the Satan mix and Christianity's understanding of Satan just doesn't make logical or chronological sense."]

Possibly you don't understand my position on this. I consider the bible non-sense, which either is completely fabulated or in this context at best a very distorted version of some conflict between some non-human species.


Quote: [If you need to know things AND have it make sense, any religion is the wrong way to go anyway! Upon questioning, reasoning, and rationale.. an individual is quite often shut up with the answers "faith" or "you just have to believe."]

and a few quotes from a former post of yours:

["God. He created Hell, not Satan.
Satan will be tortured and tormented in Hell, not given ruler's status."]

&

[" God says He created special angels for Hell. Angels whose sole purpose is to torture and torment. Angels don't have to worry about being hated for being the tormentors of Hell because they lack Free Will.... angels are beings of light created by God to be His servants and messengers. Since they don't have Free Will, they are anxious to fulfill God's every command... even torturing occupants of Hell."]

It's not easy to see, what you mean with these statements, when they are taken in context. Do you mean, that religionists should stay exclusively with 'faith' and not know "things and have them make sense", or are you self-contradictory?

There are perfectly valid ways of diminishing the epistemological 'uncertainty'.


Quote: ["And where are your rebuttals are arguments leading anyway?"]

My 'rebuttals' are (as often when I relate to religionist claims), that the parameters of the whole outlined situation are worthless from the start. Do you seriously suggest, that anyone should start debating anything connected with the flying spaghetti monster from only claims of his existence.