The Masons, The Hells Angels and the Catholic Church...

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
Your friends who believe in small government should be pissed to know that the heads of the York and Scottish Rite are British nobles.

Ronald Seale is nobility? I had no idea!!! Or are you implying that there's a Mason anywhere in the world with greater authority in the Scottish Rite than Seale? I'd love to know who...

reply to post by vcwxvwligen

So, in your opinion, what is the status of Christianity in America?

My personal opinion, without any connection to Masonry, is that Christianity in America is almost unrecognizeable. I have very little respect for any religion, and in truth I respect the zealots and fanatics moreso than the moderates. That is not to say that I agree with the zealots and fanatics, but I admire their willingness to stand behind their belief in the face of criticism.

My personal opinion on modern Christians is they have lost their identity. They cannot define themselves as "Christians" and still be moderate in their views on Christ. At the most basic level, a "Christian" must believe Christ was the lamb, son, and sacrifice of God. Therefore he must be without sin and infallible in his word. So, at the most basic level, to define yourself as a Christian, and then believe that there is any other possible avenue to heaven would be contradictory. Most modern Christians have a moderate view and a lot of tolerance for other religions or the popular term "spiritual" instead of religious. I believe that moderation will be the downfall of the religion over time.

That was a little bit off-topic, so let me bring it back to Masonic teaching. Here in America, we are mostly Christian, but we do not require a belief in Christ, we have Jewish members and Muslim members, and even some undefined "spiritual" members like myself. As long as you believe in "one, everliving God" then you qualify to be a Mason. Therefore, your God can be called Christ, Buddha, God, Yahweh, Jehovah, Allah, or any other number of names, so long as he/she is the one, everliving God.

reply to post by vcwxvwligen

This is inferring, basically, that nobody who ever entered the Craft would have been disappointed or would need to speak ill of it.

I am not inferring that at all. I don't see atacks on ATS from dissatisfied or disappointed Masons, I see attacks from people who never were Masons. An attack from within the fraternity would carry more merit, IMHO. Attacks from people based on speculation and rumor must be thoroughly supported by sources. Some of those sources, could of course be dissatisfied Masons, and there is plenty of published material along those lines.

You stated that it was illogical to demand sources from anti-Masons, and not to demand them from Masons. I simply countered that a Mason has first hand knowledge and experience, so they qualify as their own source, whereas a non-Mason would need something to back up their wild claims. It is not an illogical requirement. If the attacker was a Mason, then they would not necessarily need that extra source.

reply to post by Jkd Up
If someone wants to know about "rites" or anything else that may take place during Masonic meetings, they should join up, otherwise mind their own business. There's nothing wrong with being curious, but some people take even this way too far, such as accusing them of all sorts of evil practices. All I know about them is that they are a tight-knit brotherhood that's been around for several hundred years, and have done a lot of fine charity work. Because human beings are what they are, any organization is bound to have it's share of the criminal element among its members, and their illegal activity doesn't neccessarily involve their club in any way, and certainly has no reflection on the other members, until the media gets involved. Let's face it....sensationalism sells, and no matter what branch of the media is the first to get hold of a story, more likely than not they will blow things way out of proportion, putting more emphasis on any well know organization the perpetrator is a member of (if any), than the crime itself. H.A. was mentioned, and because they are a tight knit organization whose name carries a certain degree of notoriety, if one member breaks the law in any way, the entire membership is automatically guilty. Folk don't seem to know nor do they care, that all members joined the club because of their common love of riding, and a brotherhood that doesn't care who you are, or what you do, just as long as you don't hurt the club in any way. Most members are family men who hold good paying jobs, or have their own businesses, have never been convicted of any sort of crime, and the media just loves them!

reply to post by Bkrmn


Bkrmn: Thank you for your input. First off: I was not trying to sell that the H.A.s were indeed this or that. Having known quite a few, I have nothing but respect for them and their love of riding. They are a great bunch who I would feel much safer with than just about any other group.

The Masons gain their problems due to their "transparent" secrecy. I say that because (as fore mentioned) most of Masonry secrets are well known. For some reason the uninitiated love to blab about the 33rd degree, forgetting that first you must be a 3rd degree. So, which would be higher?

Your post was spot on and I thank you for it. I just had to let you (and all others) know that I hold no beef against the 81s worldwide. They are first and formost: Bikers. It's great to ride, but it's a lot more fun to ride with them

Are all hosts validly consecrated on a mass? Watch carefully in your local church, and especially on big celebrations. They carry out a great number of hosts with additional cups. from somewhere else, not from the altar. Sometimes all the cups are present on the altar during the Consecration, and therefore validly consecrated. But other times? Are there additional secret masses where they consecrated those additional hosts? Or none? And if there weren't additional masses and the hosts weren't present on the altar, then what SOME of the clergy is giving to us, is just a bread. It is a big sacrilege, something to do with the Antichrist who will cease the Holy Mass (the eternal sacrifice as prophet Daniel writes), or perhaps desecrating it and making it fake, I don't know how exactly it would be. The possibility of spreading non-consecrated hosts to the unaware faithful who in fact do not receive Christ's Body, is the first very alarming step. I can name some famous churches in the world where that can be seen, but I will refrain from that. Let everyone makes his/her own conclusions based on what he/she sees.