Pray tell, What is a REAL Christian?

Originally posted by Xiamara
Jesus taught us to turn the other cheek, and forgiveness. Does god no abide this? I think not. God is selfish, its illogical and hypocritical to tell your followers to be forgiving and kind yet god condemns non Christians to hell even if they were good people, yet a rapist can repent and go to heaven. Its preaching to a self absorbed god in my opinion,

I am sorry my friend, but you are placing the opinions of Man as if they were the judgement of God. God does not judge between his children. He does love us all. How can I say this with such authority?

Because God IS everything. The evil we see in our world is evil we have created with the systems we put in place. We gather up and hoard the wonderful bounty God has bestowed on us, and show our Brothers and Sisters that they are unworthy of receiving them. They are worthy or God would not have created them.

We have thieves because we would deprive our Brothers and Sisters of the things we create. Then we go further and say you are not worthy of Love if you do not possess these things. So, they steal them that they might find the joy in them, the joy we should have given them freely, love.

We have murderers because we have taught the world to murder. We justify it for all manner of things, yet despise those who make their own, often hasty, decision on what to murder for.

We have adulterers because we no longer help the young relationships flourish and grow. We find fault in our partners and let those fault grow into full division of the soul. We forget how perfect we saw them when we first met.

We have all manner of sickness in the world. It is not because of God. No, God gave us all we need. We have it because we have decided not to love what he has given us, most especially, each other.

I love you my friend, and so does God.

With Love,

Your Brother

According to the Gnostics, the real Christians are those who–through Baptism–are attaining the Second Birth by taking up their Cross (John 3), who are denying their egos (Matthew 16:24), and who are Sacrificing themselves for the sake of all living beings by following Christ (Luke 9:23, Mark 8:34).

"Every Gnostic Unction - in whatever cult or belief, sect or religion - is associated, intimately united with the Last Supper of the Adorable one through the blood pact. The Holy Primeval Christian Gnostic Church, to which we have the privilege of belonging, preserves in secrecy the primeval rituals used by the Apostles. These were the rituals of the Christians that met in the catacombs of Rome during the time of the Caesar Nero. These are the rituals of the Essenes, a humble cast of great initiates to which Jesus the Christ belonged. These are the primeval rituals of the ancient Christians." - The Perfect Matrimony

"Our doctrine is science and religion at the same time. As science, it depends upon something superior, supreme, infinite, and para-scientific (which is very elevated and greater than the lower, vulgar knowledge) for the incarnation of the knowledge par excellence. As a religion it exerts that the man, as supreme human hierarchy, can awaken in himself the divine powers that pertain to him in order to one day attain the Holy Union with the primary cause that was his genesis. Within this dualism, it is respecting that Latin principle that states: Primum intelligere, deinde credere... [First understand, then believe…]" - Arnold Krumm-Heller

A real Christian is a sinner in need of Jesus Christ's forgiveness.No more righteous than a non believer and even if they are more holy it is not by there doings,that would be a gift from God.

reply to post by Isawsomething

I spent many years in a leadership role in the protestant church. I saw and heard things I won't even bother to go into. If you're serious about God, stay away from the church buildings.

Being a "christian" is a personal experience. It is not doing, it is believing. It involves a belief and conviction that Jesus Christ was not only the son of God, but God himself manifested in the flesh. It means believeing in your heart that he came to reconcile man back to God by giving himself as an atonement for the sins of man, and fulfilling all the requirement of the old testament laws. By fulfilling the requirements of these laws, and by sacrificing himself as a "payment" for all sin, he accomplished for men, what they could not do for themselves. As we accept these things as truth, the old life of seperation from God becomes a new life of communion with God. Symbolic of the death and ressurection of Christ. (Simplified Version)

This is where "christians" get themselves into trouble. They try to go back and set up a bunch of rules and rigid guidelines after they have been set free from those very things. The law has already been fulfilled and completed in one person. Christ. This is why life is by faith. Not works. Being. Not doing.

The gospel (good news) rests on reconciliation to the creator. The doing comes out of that ressurected relationship. And it all rests on the two commandments Frogs listed above me in his post.

I could fill in a lot of blanks here, but thats the crux.

Originally posted by Xiamara
reply to post by sonofliberty1776

 

Jesus taught us to turn the other cheek, and forgiveness. Does god no abide this? I think not.

Judgment is mine sayeth the Lord. We are taught to forgive others not for their sake, but for our own. Holding hate and unforgiveness in your heart is like taking poison and hoping for your enemy to die.

God is selfish, its illogical and hypocritical to tell your followers to be forgiving and kind yet god condemns non Christians to hell even if they were good people, yet a rapist can repent and go to heaven. Its preaching to a self absorbed god in my opinion,

God does not condemn us to hell. Hell is separation from God. We have free will to choose whether we accept Gods gift of salvation or not. God Cannot abide the presence of sin. His holiness would burn to ash the sinful person who stood in his presence(stated for descriptive purpose only. I do not know exactly how a sinful person would be destroyed in his presence, That is just how I envision it)

A true christian knows this and acknowledges that all good people deserve to go to heaven.

edit on 16-12-2010 by Xiamara because: (no reason given)

I am sorry but this is a fallacy. There are NO "good people". There are none righteous in the world save only God become man, Jesus.

Originally posted by Stormdancer777

Originally posted by JudgedCover
When I meet one, I'll let you know.

Correct, they are just human, they are not Christ.

There are good Christians out there, but they fall/fail just like everyone else on this planet.

The statement wasn't birthed from a ridiculous expectation of a morally pure and perfect human existing.

Let me contextualize the statement a bit.

When I meet one who...

1. Has surrendered all of their earthly possessions to distribute amongst the community of believers so that no one lacks. Acts 4:35

2. Capable of supernatural actions such as healing people with sweaty rags or the passing over of their own shadow, or by speaking it, (Acts 19:11,12; 5:15; 5:12-16 and more) teleportation (Acts 8:39), poison immunity (28:3-6), ressurecting the dead (9:36-41; 20:9-12), demonic exorcism (16:16-18), blinding the wicked (Acts 13:6-11), have Supernatural "bodyguards" (12:7-17), seismic singing (16:25, 26) and supernatural communication of unlearned languages of humans and languages of supernatural beings (Acts 2:8-9; 1 Cor 13:1; 14:18).

3. Seek no political power of office of any kind nor invoke any sort of national citizenship rights unless such invocation allows one to humbly preach the gospel to the higest rulers of the earth. (Acts 26; 28:30, 31; Heb. 13:17; Rom 13:1; 1 Pet 2:9-11).

4. Does not regard any Real Estate as any kind of sacred temple or holy place. (1 Cor 6:19-20; Luke 21:5)

5. Does not financially profit or create a business from people's desire to commune/pray/worship to God. (John 2:14-15; 2 Cor 8:1-15; 11:5-11).

6. Operates in the utmost humilty recognizing the lower one is the higher the reflection of God i.e. does not embrace the spotlight or seek attention and recognition. (2 Cor 6:4-1-; 8:9; 11:23-33; 12:7-10; Acts 3:12-16; 4:19-20; 5:29; 17:24-31; 23:1-5; 26:19).

...I'll let you know.

reply to post by IAMIAM
While I applaud your words, they have little to do with Christianity. You leave Christ out of the equation, touting instead the innate goodness of man. Man is not innately good. I struggle everyday to surrender myself to Christ. I fail regularly and I know that without Christ right there to pick me up, I would eventually tire of trying to be something it is impossible for me to be. I am not Christ. I am a wicked sinful human with murder and lust in my heart.

The Bible is very clear that in the last days many things will happen. Let’s look and see what exactly will happen! 2 Tim. 3:1-5 explains clearly, “But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!”

reply to post by Xiamara


I couldn't agree more, and I belong to an organized (some might rightly say, uber-organized) religion.
I was raised a Lutheran and it wasn't until catechism (lessons on what being a Lutheran meant) and found I did not believe like a Lutheran.
I was told I should believe in "original sin", but knew a loving Father would not damn people to hell for lack of a bit of water. I thought a person living Christ-like, no matter when or where of the circumstances of their life would have a better time getting into heaven than a church-going, offering paying, Sunday morning and Holidays only Christian.
I was told that I should believe in the Trinity, but knew that someone on earth praying to their Father was not praying to themselves. God is God the Father, and he has a Son, Jesus Christ, and there is a Holy Spirit, and they are all different.
I was told that I should believe that a Triune God does not have a body, but knew I was made in his image, after his likeness, so He would in fact look like me. I also knew that Jesus was resurrected, which means he has his body. Why did he take it if he doesn't need it? Where did he put it? What was the point? Didn't make sense to me then, still doesn't now.
I believe God loves all his children and knows where and when they all lived on earth, and that He wants them all to return home, not just the small number of people lucky enough to be born in a time and country where Christianity is the norm. All men and women are my brothers and sisters, and we are all children of the same Heavenly Father.
When Christ was asked what the commandments were, he gave only two: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, might, mind, and strength and Love your neighbor as yourself. All other commandments start with these two.
A true Christian is someone who does that, who is respectful of all God's children, and who does things with an open heart, putting themselves last.
"...But all have sinned, and come short of the Glory of God." (Rom3:23). A true Christian knows this and keeps trying anyway.

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776
reply to post by IAMIAM

 

While I applaud your words, they have little to do with Christianity. You leave Christ out of the equation, touting instead the innate goodness of man. Man is not innately good. I struggle everyday to surrender myself to Christ. I fail regularly and I know that without Christ right there to pick me up, I would eventually tire of trying to be something it is impossible for me to be. I am not Christ. I am a wicked sinful human with murder and lust in my heart.

The Bible is very clear that in the last days many things will happen. Let’s look and see what exactly will happen! 2 Tim. 3:1-5 explains clearly, “But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!”

So turn away from all people who do not demonstrate the power of Christ's Gospel as exemplified by Christ, Himself and His earliest followers?

Will do.

reply to post by JudgedCover
I cannot tell if that was sarcasm or not. If you believe in Christ, repent and ask him into your life, then follow him, that is all that really matters. The Holy Spirit, then residing in you, will show you right and wrong and help you to live as close to "Christlike" as we imperfect humans can in a sinful world.

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776
While I applaud your words, they have little to do with Christianity.

Well that would depend on which sect of "Christianity" one is speaking of. I have witnessed great works done by some Christians who have kept the commandments. These Christians would find my words in total agreement with what they call Christianity. I have also seen heinous acts committed by those who call themselves "Christians" but despise the commandments. They claim to love Christ but love their Brothers and Sisters not. These Christians would find my words totally at odds with what they know as Christianity.

You can find the difference between the two by the fruits of their labor.

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776
You leave Christ out of the equation, touting instead the innate goodness of man.

Really? Is my message not one of love and forgiveness? Was Christ not the perfect living example of true love and devotion to mankind? Did he not so love ALL mankind that he demonstrated this love by giving his own life rather than taking lives of others to defend it?

I tout the innate goodness of God. Man is part of God, created by God, from the goodness of God. It is Man's judgement, not the judgement of God. One cannot claim to love God and Love their Brothers and Sisters not. To judge is to find fault. One cannot find fault and claim to love as is.

Worshipping Christ was not his message nor commandment. Learn his lessons and you will not struggle so much to accept them.

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776
Man is not innately good.

Do you claim to take the place of God in making this judgement?
What you make, judge as you see fit.
What God has made, leave to God to judge.

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776
I struggle everyday to surrender myself to Christ. I fail regularly and I know that without Christ right there to pick me up, I would eventually tire of trying to be something it is impossible for me to be. I am not Christ. I am a wicked sinful human with murder and lust in my heart.

My friend, if you struggle to accept something, perhaps it is because what you are trying to accept does not ring true. The lessons of Christ should flow into you like a gentle brook winds its way down a mountain side. They do not need to be forced within. Love all like the babies we are. It is quite natural once you stop judging. You had no problems doing it when you were a baby.

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776

The Bible is very clear that in the last days many things will happen. Let’s look and see what exactly will happen! 2 Tim. 3:1-5 explains clearly, “But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!”

You can choose to be a part of the crowd of lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, or you can stop judging and love all that they may learn from YOU Christ's teachings.

I am not trying to change your view my friend. I am not a Christian. However, if you look at Christ's teachings with a heart full of love, you will see that I am showing you his teachings as real as if they came from his own mouth. If your perspective brings you peace, joy, and love for all, by all means keep it.

Judge not, Love all, be at peace.

With Love,

Your Brother

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776
reply to post by JudgedCover

 

I cannot tell if that was sarcasm or not. If you believe in Christ, repent and ask him into your life, then follow him, that is all that really matters. The Holy Spirit, then residing in you, will show you right and wrong and help you to live as close to "Christlike" as we imperfect humans can in a sinful world.

Complete failure to acknowledge the subject being questioned in the slightest? Check.

Blind assumption regarding what another intelligent being believes or does not believe birthed from self-righteous arrogance? Check.

Unmerited right to to tell another person what to do with their life when it was neither requested or perhaps even needed, once again most likely from an intense form of arrogance and self-righteousness that is so blind to itself that it doesn't even fully fathom the implications of one intelligent being feeling qualified enough to demand an action that flows from a person's deepest core by another self-aware, intelligent agent of free will? Check.

The most likely rejection of the person who fails to acknowledge their edict regarding their beliefs and fails to bend to the imposing of your will upon their's? Don't know yet, but the probably so.


Yep. I'd say you are a perfect representaton of what classifies itself as a modern christian, today.

I'm very thankful for all your opinions, it is interesting to learn how other thinks and feel about this sensitive topic.

In my opinion there are no "REAL" Christians, there are only the perceptions and opinions of others that the idea of a "real" Christian is based on. Usually when someone says "Show me a real Christian" that person won't be satisfied unless Christ himself walks through the door. People who actually understand the concept of Christianity and are "Real Christian" bear the title quietly and modestly. Is a real Muslim the guy that charges a group a people with a bomb strapped to his chest? Or the guy that goes to work everyday, does his job and tried to provide for his family?

I'm a Christian because I worship Christ, I go to work everyday, I go out with my friends and I live an everyday normal life. I don't really know whats more real than that.

reply to post by Isawsomething


No matter what you believe some Christian will tell you that you are not a real Christian. If you are looking to be "safe" from Hell by believing the "correct" stuff, you might as well quit now.

If you read the words of mystics of any religion you will learn that the truth is love. Love God, love yourself, love everyone..

I wish I went to church more often. I honestly cannot tell you.

reply to post by christina-66

. . .they can't even follow the basic commandment 'Thou shalt not kill' - all kind of weird resoning is used to justify killing 'in God's name'??

I was talking to someone at church the other day and I mentioned
something about how many Iranians that Saddam Husein killed.
He said, "But that was war, so you can't blame him for that."
I asked, "Even if he started it for no good reason?"
He just looked at me like he was wondering what my problem was.

reply to post by IAMIAM


You ignored most of what Xiamara said. Someone told me on this forum a few days ago that most people use this forum merely to caress their ego, and ignore any challenging opinion, so try not to ignore this one.

Xiamara basically asked why does God tell people to turn the other cheek when wronged, when he himself does not? He condemns non-believers to hell, regardless of their "good" deeds in life, while a rapist that believes in God and accepts Christ as his saviour, is assured a place in heaven. He is a hypocrite (According to the bible)

[By the way, i'm not using the old-testament as a reference for this. In the old testament, God is a sociopathic rapist and serial killer. Maybe he(god) adopted a new religion in the timespan between the old and new testament eh?]

Anyway, on-topic. I would say a true christian is one who merely accepts Jesus christ as his saviour. If that's not the case, then it would be one who asbsolutely believes everything the bible sais, and I mean everything. Literally.

If you need a God to tell you to be "good" to other people, you are worse than the "atheists" you religious folk tend to hate. And to add to that, you would only be doing it for selfish reasons, you would be good to other people merely to suck-up to God. Disgusting.

reply to post by Isawsomething

*Is it the one that believes Jesus is the only way to salvation?

This one. But it's not as simple as declaring we believe in Jesus with our lips; rather we must understand the things Jesus taught, believe in them and follow them, and remain living in accordance with his pure teachings until he returns.