Police State By The Numbers

reply to post by Exuberant1


I don't think he's lying, nor did I ever suggest so. I was explaining my view that there is nothing wrong with requesting or expecting sources, and that it is not a personal attack to do so.

Originally posted by Pseudonaut
reply to post by Exuberant1

 

I don't think he's lying, nor did I ever suggest so. I was explaining my view that there is nothing wrong with requesting or expecting sources, and that it is not a personal attack to do so.

I don't have a problem with you questioning my sources.

If you think I'm wrong, you are free to demonstrate why this is so.

Some of my numbers may be out of date by a year or two, but they are all accurate for the past few years.

Ultimately the dollars value is connected to the amount of goods and services the economy produces. When vast swaths of the economy are not engaged in productive behavior, the remaing people who ARE engaged in productive behavior must pick up the slack.

Contrary to popular belief, we still manufacture a great deal of goods in the United States. How much? Y'know, just more than any other nation on Earth.

That's right. For all the pessimism that's thrown about on a daily basis, the United States is still the world's largest manufacturer, creating 19% of all the world's goods.

Now, it sure won't be #1 for very long. China is right behind, and will probably catch up and/or surpass the US in a year or two, if it hasn't already. In 2009, China's manufacturing output was $1.6 trillion to the US's $1.7.

sources:
en.wikipedia.org...
money.cnn.com...

You ask if we are running out of goods? - inflation says we are indeed running out of goods.

Now, that's just plain not true. Inflation doesn't show anything of the sort. Inflation, by historic standards, is still remarkably low, at 1.2% in October 2010.



I keep hearing that the government is manipulating this data, but looking at that chart, it's clear that if they are doing so, they would have to be heavily maniupulating it for inflation to be anywhere near a dramatic problem as it's been in the 10s, 30s and 70s. I'm sure it's possible, but my gut says that if that were the case, it'd be pretty obvious to the every day American. From where I sit, thing's are still relatively affordable.

source:
www.tradingeconomics.com...

By the way, the number of people between 17 and 65 is not the number of people in the labor pool.

Indeed. I think you missed my point, which was to explain why so many people are not working. It's because a great deal of them are elderly or under 17.


I understand that it feels like everything is falling apart around us, and pessimism is the word of the day -- believe me, I'm no fan of the way things are being run around here -- but things are still pretty awesome here in the US, and the data backs that opinion up in spades.

Now, can we please just have a beer and talk about football?

Originally posted by mnemeth1
I don't have a problem with you questioning my sources.

If you think I'm wrong, you are free to demonstrate why this is so.

I just feel like it's unfair to show how many people aren't working and then to draw the conclusion that somehow there's something wrong with it based on the number alone.

That's why I showed that a very large percentage of the people who aren't "contributing" members of the economy (outside of the gov't workers that you pointed out), are either children or elderly. That's not even counting rich people, jailed (probably, what, 2 million right there?) or very sick people.

My whole point is that the economy being left to 116 million people is not a bad thing. It's just kinda normal.

reply to post by Pseudonaut


I don't believe the government reported manufacturing output levels.

I think they are a lie.

I think this because nothing in my home was produced in America.

I think the "production" figures include things like aircraft carriers and nuclear missiles, which should not be included at all when calculating the productive output of the economy since those items can not be traded or sold and they provide no standard of living increase for individual citizens.

If the government orders the production of an aircraft carrier, my life actually gets worse, not better.

Further, the CPI is a flaming joke.

If you think we only have 1% inflation, there is no hope left for America.

Again, just look at metals, oil, food, and other commodity prices - they are skyrocketing.

The only thing falling is home prices.

reply to post by mnemeth1


That's a good point. Military hardware manufacturing has no appreciable benefit to me or any citizen. I'd hate to live in a world where our economy was based on defense contract manufacturing. Course, on the other hand, who does it better?

But don't forget about airplane manufacturing (boeing, lockheed martin), as well as automobile (ford, GM, many japanese cars are manufactured in the US), steel, gas, clothing (yep, there's still some left ), textiles, food, lumber, etc... And let's not leave out tech/telecommunications. I don't know what you've got over there, but every single electronic device that I own has parts manufactured right here in America.

Fact is, manufacturing is actually growing in the US. We're making more stuff than ever, year after year.

But... And this is a big but... Manufacturing employment is shrinking, and has been for many years. Advances in automation and manufacturing processes have pushed poor old human beings out of the picture, and I suspect this is speaking more to your point. It can't be a good thing, and I'd agree with that any day.

Okay, threadjack done. Promise!

reply to post by Pseudonaut


I believe manufacturing is growing - just not in the productive private sector.

I also believe manufacturing employment is decreasing. This is a predictable outcome of credit expansion. It will continue to decrease until the dollar implodes.

reply to post by mnemeth1


I will just point out that inflation, or value of the dollar is not a good measure of economic production in current central bank fiat money economy at all. If CB constantly pours new money into the economy, inflation increases - but NOT because people are producing less, but because the amount of money in circulation is increasing. Production may even be rising, but as long as the monetary base is artificialy rising faster, there will still be inflation.

reply to post by mnemeth1


Yes, we should let the old people starve to death. That's the answer that will save the economy ..

Apparently you agree with the NWO then. Cause Obama/GOP just approved social security tax cuts.

Look who's policy you are really supporting.

You forgot about the 2,304,115 "criminals" currently in the Justice system and the some 7 million on probation (according to 2006 numbers) not to mention all the people who work for the prison industry. Or the 27 million Americans currently on Anti-Depressants.

Originally posted by FalselyFlagged
reply to post by mnemeth1

 

Yes, we should let the old people starve to death. That's the answer that will save the economy

..

Apparently you agree with the NWO then. Cause Obama/GOP just approved social security tax cuts.

Look who's policy you are really supporting.

Because prior to Socialist Security, all people over the age of 65 starved to death in America's gutters.

Originally posted by mnemeth1

I do hope you all understand that people must actually produce "things" that people want to buy in order for a country to be 'rich'.

We do produce something.

Weapons. And Wars.

This is where our resources and wealth derive from.

That is why the military industrial complex is the one and only important thing. That is why they get the majority of all the funding. That is why we will have another war soon.

To keep the train chuggin along!

Originally posted by BrokenCar
How can one debate when no facts are presented in the first place?

I have to agree with you, If one makes a thread, one must be prepared to back up their thread otherwise will be thought to be starting shtz. A debate is always accompanied with proof,facts,ect...
Know to say speak out against the thread, all nations have lower classed working class, you will not find one nation which all people own a business and contribute a thing to society. Why do you expect every american citizen to be a business owner contrib

reply to post by Exuberant1


Nobody should have to prove that the OP is wrong. In academic research and debate the person making an assertion is responsible for proving their point. So, if somebody posts the thesis that only 116 million people are productive citizens, they bear the burden of proof.

That has been the standard for centuries.

ETA:

I do not think the Original proster is lying about his numbers. Our ideals, opinions and such often differ. However, I have never known him to out right lie or decieve.

That being said, if somebody calls for a source you have to provide it. That is the standard for making any argument.

The alleged statistics of the GDP vs. the manufacturing rate of the US, are grossly calculated. If the USG, being the lying thieves, and murderers they are, continue to lie to us as they have for the past 40+ years, why would anyone on earth assume that graphs/charts and statements issued by none other than the USG would be accurate?

You wanna boost the US dollar, start by eradicating all unconstitutional social programs! That's just a start~