Why Is The God of Abraham So Shy?

Originally posted by Sahabi
Can any Christian or Muslim please explain to me in a logical fashion why the God of Abraham does not walk with us as He did with Adam in the Garden, or talk to us loudly from Heaven as He did with Adam's early descendants, or manifest His glory as He did in the presence of Moses?

Not to be flippant, but why should he? As others in the thread have pointed out, if one has faith, one can see signs of God around them, whether in nature, in the actions of people, or in the movings of his spirit. If one needs God to pop by, do some miracles and answer 20 Questions, then one lacks faith, and a true love of God, which is what he's interested in.

I wrote a previous thread on why "proof" of God is elusive, but the summary, again, is that God loves you, and he wants you to love him, and all the other people, and a genuine love is not based on the fear or chagrin that knowing conclusively that God exists would bring. There are those who try to bully or scare others into believing, I think that this is wrong, and suspect that God would agree.

Since the time of the prophets, the world has made it clear that it is less and less interested in matters of faith, so the world is getting what it asks.

Originally posted by Sahabi
Can any Christian or Muslim please explain to me in a logical fashion why the God of Abraham does not walk with us as He did with Adam in the Garden, or talk to us loudly from Heaven as He did with Adam's early descendants, or manifest His glory as He did in the presence of Moses?

Answer this question while considering my 3rd post in this thread:

reply to post by Sahabi

 

This is, God turned away from us for disobedience, but He clearly says we do not bear the sins of our fathers. I want God to walk with me and talk with me and manifest His glory to me as He is said to have done in the Old Testament / Torah.

We do not bear the sins of our fathers... it was our ancient ancestors that disobeyed God after clear signs were given, not me!

So is the God of Abraham according to the Torah, Bible, and Qur'an a liar?

God wants nothing more than to show himself to you. But if he does that then you will be forced to believe in him. God doesn't want robots, that's why he created us with free will. He loves us so much that he allows us to choose not to love him back.
Ask yourself if you were God, would you want people to follow you because you dazzle them with miracles, or because they want to follow you?

reply to post by Sahabi



Hi Sahabi

Originally posted by Sahabi
Why did He command the Hebrew Israelites to kill all non-believers?

For me, it all goes back to the Ten Commandments, which God gave us to follow and which then man wrote down. Now God knew in advance that man would corrupt the very laws he sent, and had already planned that Jesus would come to fulfill the law. The reason God did this, is because he knew man was sinful and would either change, corrupt or add to the law itself.

It was prophesied that the Messiah (Jesus) would come and fulfill Gods laws, which is exactly what Jesus does. Jesus fulfills the law by his teaching and by the bringing of the Holy Spirit, so that Gods Laws can now be written on men’s hearts in spirit, and not corrupted in a book.

An important point to add, and if you know the 4 Gospels pretty well, is that Jesus in regards to the laws, really only addresses the 10 commandments in his teachings. So what about all the other laws? Why doesn’t Jesus go around teaching people to kill unbelievers and teaching all the other extra Judaic Laws, that go along with the Ten commandments (Rhetorical Question) IMO, the reason he doesn’t fulfill them or teach them at all, is because they never came from God to begin with, they came from men.


- JC

Sahabi - Jesus appeared to Paul on the road to Damascus.

Do you know what happens to a person when they are in the "presence"? I'll assume you know, for the sake of this discussion - you fall prostrate like dead. That's what happens on the outside and what's seen in the physical but do you have any clue what happens on the inside of that same individual while they are laying flat on their face, dead-like? The Glory of God is manifesting. Love from a man or woman can make a person weak in the knees, but love from God actually knocks you off your feet.

Let me ask you something, Sahabi - would you rather God appear to you in a burning bush (like he did Moses) in an external fashion (consider you are not going to get that special rod like Aaron and Moses had use of) or would you rather have God live inside you, writing his laws on your heart, supping with him on hidden manna and having the power that was in Aaron's and Moses' rod inside you - teaching you, showing you things, and comforting you.

Here, let's talk just a bit more about that rod. King David said in Psalm 23 "Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, FOR YOU ARE WITH ME; YOUR ROD AND YOUR STAFF, THEY COMFORT ME."

What about the sign of Immanuel? Isaiah 7 - God with us.

What about the child born to us? Isaiah 9 - he will be called wonderful counselor and sit on David's throne FROM THAT TIME ON AND FOREVER. Forever is a really long time guys.

Twice in the Bible it says that all things are going to be new. Once in the OT in Isaiah 65:17 “See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind." And again one of the last things John records Jesus saying from his THRONE:

"I AM making everything new. Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and TRUE. IT IS DONE. I AM the Alpha and the Omega (the Aleph and Tav), the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life." Revelation 21: 5-6

Let's talk about that spring of the water of life. Twice in the Bible it is written that God is actually going to do a new thing. Once in Jeremiah 31:22 a new thing is created for the wandering daughter, and she will surround a man. The other in Isaiah 43:19 "See, I am doing a NEW THING! Now it springs up, do you not perceive it?"

God is not shy, you just need to get in line with how he has chosen to progressively reveal himself. Nothing has changed, so rend your hearts and repent and receive all the perks thereof.

reply to post by Sahabi

But why must I rely on ancient manuscripts from one single nation... Hebrew Israelites through their Torah/Old Testament?

And one single man Jesus?

Because the OT is the story of a nation, the NT a story of a man. Yet every event in the OT is either a micro or macro code for Jesus Christ. You can find Him on every page of the OT.

Genesis has a story in it about the time when Joseph was in Egypt and because of the famine, the farmers ended up going from being independent farmers to being tenants on the land working for the Pharaoh, giving up their rights of ownership in exchange for food which had been horded away. Then by the time of Moses there was large scale slavery, which may have been the continuation of the trend of centralized power and no power for the ordinary person.
The point being, that as the story in Exodus shows, it was the kings who determined the fate of the nations. So Moses would go to one king and present God to them as His spokesman, then get rejected. That continued on in that way where the men in power did not want to relinquish any of their authority, even to allow for influence by a god who would not be a threat to them if they were already ruling over their people in a just way.
Lets take Saddam Husein for example. Here is this guy who, according to the Bush rationale, was mistreating his people and threatening his neighbors. American forces go in and take him out of power, meanwhile chaos ensues and tens of thousands of the citizens end up dead. The outcome, or at least what we are led to believe was, is these pacified cities where things are somewhat stabilized but still an occupying force in place in case something flairs up.
What if when confronted by foreign emissaries, Saddam would have said, "OK fine, I will stop arresting people for no reason and torturing and murdering them for entertainment. And I will stop making plans to destroy neighboring countries. And I will allow humanitarian organizations to come in and make sure everyone is treated well and I will stop putting up statues and giant posters of my image and acting like I am god."?

reply to post by Myrtales Instinct


Wow, hahaa

Jesus doesn't piss me off, nor do I stick my fingers in my ears at his mention. From what I know of Jesus, he came with a pretty awesome message. But here's the problem... Where's Jesus' Gospel? I can only find the Gospel according to.... and according to.... and also according. Then this crazy dude Paul the Antichrist comes along and teaches contradictions from all 4 ordained according to Gospels, and contradicts the Torah, and he never met Jesus... and to top it off, Jesus' REAL disciples disagreed with Paul's teachings and argued against him!

I also see no true indication from reading the Old Testament and the 4 ordained according to Gospels that Jesus is God's literal son, nor god in the flesh, nor part of a trinity.

If the teachings of Jesus were still alive today in pure form on paper, I would love to be enlightened by it. And the "knowing Jesus in your heart" isn't a valid argument, because the vast denominations of Christians can't even fully agree with what Jesus and God are all about! So who's right? You? You are absolute certain that you alone out of so many billion people hold the one, absolute, perfect understanding of truth for mankind? Wow.

And my head is out of the physical. I'm fairly spiritual. I know myself as a three part being; mind, physical body, and soul or spirit.

Back to the topic, one aspect of God's power, being the Holy Spirit, doesn't make all things from god unseen. What about the angels? What about the pillar of smoke by day and pillar of fire by night? What about the burning bush? What about God's words reigning down from the heavens? Our ancestors got it. Where's my equal sign? And also, answer why our ancestors got manifest signs but we didn't? Did the God of Abraham go from manifestation then, into invisible ninja mode now? Why? He tells us we do not bear the sins of our fathers.

Originally posted by troubleshooter
reply to post by Sahabi

 

Because last time he turned up men crucified him.

But God said we do not bearthe sins of our fathers. If my ancestors killed god, why am I being shunned for it? God said we are responsible for our own sin.

reply to post by adjensen


Then how do we know which religion, or which prophets, or which saints, or which teachings are correct?

Do the Jews, Christians, Muslims, and believers of Abraham's God truly believe that the entire world was left in ignorance, and waited for centuries to be converted? That all of those countless past generations of "ignorant savages" went to hell just because Christians haven't yet sailed the seas, or Muslims haven't yet crossed the deserts? All Abrahamic religions have spread their beliefs through the sword currently or in the past.

Why has Abraham's God only revealed Himself manifest to the prophets of old, making all others subject to faith only?

I am not speaking of a transcendent, absolute, unifying god. I am speaking about the god of Abraham as described in the Torah, the Bible, and the Qur'an.

reply to post by freedish


I'm sorry, but according to the Torah, the Bible, and the Qur'an... when God gave a sign or manifest Himself, some people would later go back into disobedience and some would still obey. Adam and Eve disobeyed after knowing god. Moses' people disobeyed and created the golden calf, complained about heavenly mana, and still disobeyed after all their signs.

If I don't bear the sins of my father, God should not shun me by manifest signs.
If some people obey and some people disobey after seeing manifest signs, then me being a mindless obedient robot if I see God are not valid.

The logic isn't adding up. God went away from manifest signs because our ancestors... but He tells me I do not bear my father's sins.

Originally posted by Sahabi
Do the Jews, Christians, Muslims, and believers of Abraham's God truly believe that the entire world was left in ignorance, and waited for centuries to be converted? That all of those countless past generations of "ignorant savages" went to hell just because Christians haven't yet sailed the seas, or Muslims haven't yet crossed the deserts

Well, I'm neither Jewish nor Muslim, so I can't speak for them, but many Christians (including myself) believe that a person who doesn't know Christ, but acts in accordance with his will, does actually know him and is the same as any other follower of Christ's teachings. As is often referenced as a "God shaped hole" in our beings, there are those who seek out a higher meaning and purpose in life, even without knowing what they are seeking.

Theologically, there are a few problems with that, but I think that they are minor ones. A Christian believes that God is good, and God is just, so a lack of information should not preclude salvation. Of course, it ultimately comes down to what God thinks, not us, and it's not particularly relevant today, so it's really more of a discussion point than anything else.

All Abrahamic religions have spread their beliefs through the sword currently or in the past.

As have most countries, ethnicities and other groups, which says more about the nature of man than it does the nature of God, wouldn't you say?

reply to post by adjensen


People from every religion feel connectedness with their god or belief system. The 10 Commandments are taught throughout the world in various religions and beliefs, even before Jesus or the Bible spread. So how can you say Jesus is right and everything else is wrong? Christians can't even agree amongst themselves. Don't kill, don't steal, don't adulter, don't go to other religions.... basic teachings found everywhere.

If Buddhists feel Peace and Bliss and follow paths of humble piety, how can Christianity be the only right path?

God is something. But what makes Jesus absolute and all else wrong? If Abraham's God wasn't so shy, he wouldn't guided the world, not just the Hebrew Israelites or Jesus' followers.

Originally posted by Sahabi
If Buddhists feel Peace and Bliss and follow paths of humble piety, how can Christianity be the only right path?

Spiritually and intellectually, I agree with you. Theologically, though, it is clear that, as a Christian, a core belief is that salvation comes through Christ. Why does that matter? Because we're talking about God here, not what we personally hold to be fair or just. We're entitled to those beliefs or perspectives, but it is obviously not binding on God, and whatever the reality is, that's what it is.

Christians believe that Christ is the means God has provided to reconcile himself to us, and that's just the way that it is. I won't bore you with the theological logic of it, because you can explore that yourself, but for me, at least, I understand and accept the tenets of it. It is the "only right path" because it's the path God gave us.

God is something. But what makes Jesus absolute and all else wrong? If Abraham's God wasn't so shy, he wouldn't guided the world, not just the Hebrew Israelites or Jesus' followers.

I'm not quite sure that I understand your last sentence there, but I will point out that, unlike the Jews, who were a chosen race of people that you were born into, there is no barrier to becoming a follower of Christ. If you believe that this is the truth, you're welcome to join along.

The question, I suppose, becomes one of how accommodating God needs to be. He's given us a path, Christ, which is open to all. Does he need to provide alternative paths for people in China or India? If he does that, need alternatives exist for every different belief system or cultural group? Does such an alternative negate Christ's sacrifice for us? As Paul says, if you can still "earn" salvation through the Law, then Christ died for nothing.

If being a Christian had a huge barrier to entry, I could see the logic of alternatives, but it doesn't. Just believe in Christ and be nice to people, that's pretty much it. I hold back some degree of hope that those who can't do the first, for cultural or intellectual reasons, but still did the second, would be accommodated, but that is a personal hope, not a theological one.

reply to post by Sahabi

Jesus doesn't piss me off, nor do I stick my fingers in my ears at his mention. From what I know of Jesus, he came with a pretty awesome message. But here's the problem... Where's Jesus' Gospel? I can only find the Gospel according to.... and according to.... and also according. Then this crazy dude Paul the Antichrist comes along and teaches contradictions from all 4 ordained according to Gospels, and contradicts the Torah, and he never met Jesus... and to top it off, Jesus' REAL disciples disagreed with Paul's teachings and argued against him!

100% false. Peter whom Jesus said was the "rock" He'd build His church upon says this about Paul in his last epistle:

"15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures."

2 Peter 3:15-16

Originally posted by Sahabi
Sticking strictly and literally to the Holy Bible, we can see that St. Paul the Antichrist not only contradicts the Old Testament, but he also contradicts Jesus as illustrated in the Gospels. St. Paul the Antichrist never even met Jesus, and he even disagreed with and argued against Jesus' real disciples!

It's all in the Bible, plain and simple... if one were to read it in it's entirety while ignoring doctrine, dogma, and what preacher said.

In actuality, the perspective that Paul is out of sync with either Christ or the Old Testament is one that arises from those who have NOT read Paul's epistles, or do so without an understanding of it. I have seen people claim that Paul says that actions don't matter, because we are saved through faith alone, but ten minutes with any of Paul's writings would clearly show that to be false.

The argument between Paul and the other church fathers was simply this: did one need to be a Jew to believe in Christ and achieve salvation? The Apostles had, until Paul had his encounter with Christ, been only focused on getting fellow Jews to see Christ as the Messiah. If there were believing Greeks (Gentiles,) just as in the pre-Christian times, they needed to convert to Judaism, be circumcised and live by the Law.

To which Paul noted, rightly, "then what is the point of Christ?" If a Jew is reconciled to God through the Law, as Jews believed then, and believe today, a Gentile who converts to Judaism and lives under the Law needs Christ, why? He argued that, if the Law is sufficient, then Christ died for nothing.

The logic of that is fairly tough to shake, so the real point of contention became both cultural and political -- the Jews had lived as they had for thousands of years, so tossing it out overnight wasn't something that was possible, much less desirable, so circumcision and Torah became, if not "optional", certainly less prominent for the Jewish Christians, and something completely inapplicable to Gentile Christians.

In the end, Paul went his way, James went his and the rest went one way or the other to a lesser extent. Within a few hundred years, the Jews that were going to convert did, Gentiles became the overwhelmingly dominant force of the church, and, ironically, the Church moved away from Paul and towards James, as regarded faith and works, which resulted in the Protestant Reformation re-embracing Pauline views on grace and salvation centuries later.

So a holistic and unbiased reading of the Bible will, in fact, show that Paul and Christ are not in disharmony, and that the differences between Paul and the other Apostles are minor ones, reflective of the cultural background and audiences that they were preaching to, far more than deep contradictions.

I just want to clarify that this thread is not a "Bash Christianity" thread. I may choose to debate doctrine and dogma at times, but that is not the motivation here.

In the thread What is a Christian I said,

Originally posted by Sahabi
What is a real Christian?

Ask that short list of questions in the OP to 100 Christians and you will get 100 different answer combinations. Not 2 single people will agree perfectly on every single answer. This will stand true with 100 people of the same church.

What is a real Christian? What can we conclude? Relativity. The concept of a real Christian is relative to the individual you are asking. Since no 2 Christians can 100% agree on 100% of the understandings and beliefs, then Christian Faith and Belief are relative.

Now the tricky part... can we get all religious people to understand that all faith and belief is relative? What ever makes you happy, gives you Peace, gives you comfort and strength, and makes you a better person is what is real. It's real to you, just as any other understandings are real to the next person. Follow religion to improve the quality of your life, not to look down, condemn, or fight others over disagreement.

All faith is relative. To you be your Path, and to me be mine.

Point relating to this thread:

• No 2 Christians can agree 100% on every single understanding, belief, or tenant of faith. If there is not a universal understanding in Christianity, why condemn every other religion, belief, or lack thereof?

• If the God of Abraham is All Loving, All Merciful, All Knowing, and All Powerful... why did he reveal Himself to the Hebrews and make the whole rest of the world enemies of God and ordered to be put to death by the sword? Why did He reveal Himself only to the hearts of Christians and condemn all others to Hell or to die by the sword? Why did He reveal Himself only to Muhammad and make all others disbelievers and condemned to Hell or to die by the sword?

• Why didn't Abraham's God just reveal Himself to the whole world so no one would have to be put to death by the sword?

• The God of Abraham... His 3 "Great" religions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Why has all 3 of His religions contributed to more ideological bloodshed than any other system? Hebrews went primal and launched a genocide on all of the native inhabitants of the Promised Land. Does God like seeing people die? Because if He is All Knowing, He would know how much blood the Hebrews spilled... but He let the same thing happen in Christianity with witch hunts, crusades, and forced conversion, and even Christians killing Christians over belief of who is right and who is a heretic. Then He saw His first 2 religions go blood thirsty then He lets Islam spill blood in His name too?

• You modern Christians can sit at home all warm and fuzzy inside, but where is the Love in your religion's history? You can preach love today because you spilled blood yesterday? An All Knowing, All Powerful, All Loving, and All Merciful God let all 3 of His religions reign through bloodshed... where's the love or mercy in that?

• Is Abraham's God an idiot? Judaism strike one. Christianity strike two. Islam strike three. It took centuries of bloodshed to bring Peace? And all these centuries later it is still these 3 CORRECT and HOLY religions that are doing most of earth's killings!! Ancient Chinese emperors did better than that!!!

• It's easy for a Christian to point at Islamic Terrorists and declare who the monster is! Hypocrites! Christians make up the majority of the prison population and majority of the enlisted military soldiers! Holier than thou hypocrites!

• Native Americans, Australian Aborigines, Africans, Asians, Indians..... all of these people lived for millennia with no knowledge of Abraham's God. Why did God leave them in "ignorance"? So they can all go to hell for never accepting "god"? But the real religion... the real god... He comes along and spills all of the blood. He leaves one group in ignorance, then tells another group to go convert or kill in His name? If He was so powerful, why don't He go convert and kill people Himself? Or is He still on coffee break relaxing on his sixth day?

• The God of Abraham only is known to the world because Moses' people, Jesus' followers, and Muhammad's followers spread His name far and wide with bloodshed and fear! An All Knowing, All Loving, All Merciful God would never do this, nor allow His name to be used in vain!!

• Using the Lord's name in vain... big no no, right? If conversion through force, fear, and murder were so bad, why are His 3 bloody religions reigning supreme? One giant group of killers is enough, why allow every religion that follows Him to be soaked in blood?

reply to post by adjensen


The Golden Rule (And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise) and Karma (Reap what you sow) are concepts found throughout the entire world. So we see that morals are not dependent on Abraham's God's religion. People around the whole world know these truths. So we can agree on the potential for humans in all parts of the world to be good to their fellow human.

Now, what makes Abraham's God supreme and the only god?
• Because a book says so? What about the holy books and teachings found throughout the world?
• Because He communicates with believers? What about the communication between believers and gods/spirits throughout the world?
• Because of signs, miracles, and prophecy? What about signs, miracles, and prophecy throughout the world?
• Because Jesus died? What about the countless martyrs, teachers, and leaders, that died for their people?
• Jesus died for my sins? Really? God said we do not bear the sins of our fathers anyways.

Christianity used to be the largest religion. It started to shrink when it put its sword down. Now Islam is waving the sword and is the largest religion of Abraham's God!

"I am a jealous god"
"The Lord is a warrior. The Lord is His name"
Abraham's God is jealous so he orders killing. All Loving, All Merciful, All Power?
He spread His message by the sword! The only power He has is in the blades of His followers.

God is something. But what makes Jesus absolute and all else wrong? If Abraham's God wasn't so shy, he would have guided the world, not just the Hebrew Israelites or Jesus' followers.

Make better sense now? My mistake, I put wouldn't instead of would have.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Galatians makes it pretty clear that St. Paul the Antichrist was in opposition to the apostles.

This is what Antichrist Paul said about Peter the Rock; "But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed." (Galatians 2:11)

And he said this about Barnabas and the other disciples, "And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?" (Galatians 2:13-14)

Who was Barnabas?

And when Saul was come to Jerusalem, he assayed to join himself to the disciples: but they were all afraid of him, and believed not that he was a disciple. But Barnabas took him, and brought him to the apostles, and declared unto them how he had seen the Lord in the way, and that he had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus.
(Acts 9:26-27)

And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
(Galatians 2:9)

So basically Barnabas gives his word for Paul to be trusted by the other apostles, and was also Paul's partner in fellowship, but Paul calls Barnabas a hypocrite and not walking upright? Wow!

Originally posted by Sahabi
Christianity used to be the largest religion. It started to shrink when it put its sword down. Now Islam is waving the sword and is the largest religion of Abraham's God!

You would make a better case for yourself if you bothered looking things up and verifying numbers before you spout off nonsense. List of religious populations.

God is something. But what makes Jesus absolute and all else wrong? If Abraham's God wasn't so shy, he would have guided the world, not just the Hebrew Israelites or Jesus' followers.

Make better sense now? My mistake, I put wouldn't instead of would have.

Since you clearly haven't bothered reading anything that I've written, I suppose that there is no point in replying to this again. Good luck with things.