Can China Invade Taiwan?

Originally posted by chinawhite
Cambodia?

AH yes following thier invasion of Vietnam to "teach" them a lession (And the Vietnamese attacks on Cambodia saved my wife from the Communist China's puppet Pol Pot) China established based for the expressed purpose of suporting and aiding Pol Pot's regime. I guess you can truly be a butcher untill you kill several millons eh?

Originally posted by FredT

Originally posted by chinawhite
Cambodia?

AH yes following thier invasion of Vietnam to "teach" them a lession (And the Vietnamese attacks on Cambodia saved my wife from the Communist China's puppet Pol Pot) China established based for the expressed purpose of suporting and aiding Pol Pot's regime. I guess you can truly be a butcher untill you kill several millons eh?

The Vietnamese are no better?

There is still on going murder and genocide in that region, to this day by their Military.

www.genocidewatch.org...

Just as the US aided and abetted Saddam, and about dozens of other brutal dictators just so that you can avoid other little "Canada's" in south America really China and Russia may support some authoritan regimes but its because its geopolitik. We do it so we can have influnce against you to balance you sending troops and supporting your own little pets in similar regions.

The world is a chess board the only problem is the players keep changing but the pieces remain the same and the board is 4D.

Originally posted by The Middle Kingdom
Just as the US aided and abetted Saddam, and about dozens of other brutal dictators just so that you can avoid other little "Canada's" in south America really China and Russia may support some authoritan regimes but its because its geopolitik. We do it so we can have influnce against you to balance you sending troops and supporting your own little pets in similar regions.

The world is a chess board the only problem is the players keep changing but the pieces remain the same and the board is 4D.

I think they wont understand "geopolitics".

The Middle Kingdom先生，我觉得，这样说对他们太抽象了，他们很难理解的。

Originally posted by bodebliss
"Do you think the American public would support a war against China, "

We are already fighting a war against the CCP. Why shouldn't it continue?

What are you talking about? I'm talking about a war in which MEN DIE and you know exactly what I am talking about. You're just avoiding my question because you kno the answer is NO.

[edit on 19-10-2005 by k4rupt]

The living Dalai Lama (the winner of nobel peace prize ) is the 14th Dalai Lama. His predecessors (all thirteen of them) have been observing one specific rule: going to Beijing to meet the reigning Qin emperers in person or heads of Nationalist China to receive mandate and endorsement before they could officially start their reigns in Tibet.

The 14th Dalai Lama broke the rule, in fact he went as far as announcing independence in late 1950s. His decision was not based on the will of the tibetan mass other than the minority of the ruling class. (The poor and the slaves didn't have a voice.)

The 14th Dalai Lama had received some western education abroad and got himself a bunch of British advisers. It was not strange that he had developed a deep hatred towards Communist New China.

Chinese Government was prepared maintain Dalai's authority as the highest spiritual leader in Tibet, if he would take moves to phase out the crueliest slavery systems and give land, herds and rights to the tibetan mass. Dalai wouldn't listen, and took to the extreme counter measures such as announcing independence and instigating anti-Chinese riots. All I can say is he digged a hole for himself. Chinese troops had to move in to drive him out and establish a civilian government, which duly abolished slavery and implemented land reform.

Westerners on this forum seem to be very defensive of every tibetan rights. Well, where were you liberaters in 1950s when the tibetan slaves and peasants were suffering at the hands of the tibetan ruling class and high monks? If you really care, you should come to tibet and visit the ordinary tibetans on the streets and in the villages. Why don't you ask them: what were your fathers lives like? what's your life like? Do you miss Dalai Lama's rule? do you consider yourself Chinese and so on, although you must get ready for being ridiculed for your ignorance (the answers are too obvious).

Chinese usually get the urge to throw up when they watch the political shows of western statesmen (to name a few, the US Presidents, British prime ministers, Japanese prime ministers, Taiwan "presidents") lining up and shaking hands with the ex-slave owner, nobel peace prize winner, "the true voice" of tibetan people, the noble and benign Dalai Lama 14th. I am sure many of you on this forum are fans of Dalai Lama, but I still want to say "Dalai makes me sick!"

While I'm not sure of Tibets history I'm not sure if this is true I think its true but I'm not sure, Puri can you please post a link so we may be sure? Or at least a book source. We don't want to be called liars we're supposed to be better then that.

Originally posted by The Middle Kingdom
While I'm not sure of Tibets history I'm not sure if this is true I think its true but I'm not sure, Puri can you please post a link so we may be sure? Or at least a book source. We don't want to be called liars we're supposed to be better then that.

Sure .

Here they are:

lark.phoblacht.net/freetibetlor.html

www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html

www.etext.org/Politics/MIM/faq/tibet.html

www.tibetinfor.com.cn/tibetzt/ tibet50-en/background/doc/old_01.htm

rwor.org/a/firstvol/tibet/tibet1.htm

and many more, why don't you "google" it.

[edit on 19-10-2005 by puri]

--------------------------------------------------------

and, old photos of mangled and tortured Tibetan slaves :

news.china.com/.../ 1007/20040722/11795633.html

bulo.163.com/article/ -2-O2-UyXoQs.html

www-csag.ucsd.edu/.../ articles/photoes_1.html

www.gjx.cn/.../image/ 7lihuanmin/s02.gif

www.xz.xinhuanet.com/.../ laozp20010606005.htm



[edit on 19-10-2005 by puri]

Thanks for sharing the info about Tibet. There are quite a few Americans that tend to ignore many facts about China and instead choose to bash on the Chinese in whichever they can find.


*Note: bodebliss you stlil havent answered my question.

[edit on 19-10-2005 by k4rupt]

[edit on 19-10-2005 by k4rupt]

Well you know the US will fight if it has too.

That's all you need to know.

The american public will support that.

It will be a short war filled with nuke exchanges.

You'll hurl your 23 nukes and we'll hurl our 7,000 10 megaton warheads.

Originally posted by Odium
The Vietnamese are no better?

God no, same brutal communist regime just a different flavor IMHO. No Vietnam was no angel either

[edit on 10/20/05 by FredT]

Hey guys, I have an idea; why don't you (USA and China) work together? You can achieve great things you know if you work together.

Forget the things during the cold war, that era is gone; no side is holier than the other in that time. No, not even the US (e.g. school of America, supporting Suharo while he killed 500.000 so called 'communists', supporting other ruthless dictatorships etc. etc).

I have a question for the Chinese though; what is it that you will lose if Taiwan becomes independent? I mean Taiwan is peanuts compared to the potential of China.

Blobber

[edit on 20-10-2005 by Blobber]

Originally posted by bodebliss
You'll hurl your 23 nukes and we'll hurl our 7,000 10 megaton warheads.

I am sure earlier, you were criticising that Chinese guy for risking the lives of millions of Chinese?

However...you will risk the lives of millions of Americans, Chinese and any other Nation where fallout will hit?

Hmm...odd that...

Originally posted by FredT

Originally posted by Odium
The Vietnamese are no better?

God no, same brutal communist regime just a different flavor IMHO. No Vietnam was no angel either

[edit on 10/20/05 by FredT]

Actually Vietnam is still going on now, it is one of the unspoken genocides which we really need to sort out.

AS for the Chinese involvement? Didn't the Vietnamese Invade Cambodia before the Chinese invaded both? I do believe they went in to Cambodia and Vietnam to remove the Vietnamese - and to secure the easy trade with Cambodia, however many Nation's do this.

The problems with China, really are not that isolated and are ones most larger Nation's have taken part in over the last few hundred years and in fact, many have in the last 50.

Originally posted by Blobber


I have a question for the Chinese though; what is it that you will lose if Taiwan becomes independent? I mean Taiwan is peanuts compared to the potential of China.

FACE. They will lose major face and I can tell you that Asians hold face very dear, even more than the NRA does the fourth amendment. (I hope I got the right amendment and not the one that allows you to keep and arm bears!)

Originally posted by FredT
AH yes following thier invasion of Vietnam to "teach" them a lession (And the Vietnamese attacks on Cambodia saved my wife from the Communist China's puppet Pol Pot) China established based for the expressed purpose of suporting and aiding Pol Pot's regime. I guess you can truly be a butcher untill you kill several millons eh?

china never actualy entered cambodia but only supplied arms.

How is that a invasion?

Hmmm research I have seen shown that China set up bases in Cambodia to continue to funnel arms to the butcher. I will try to dig up a link for you.

Originally posted by Blobber
Hey guys, I have an idea; why don't you (USA and China) work together? You can achieve great things you know if you work together.

Forget the things during the cold war, that era is gone; no side is holier than the other in that time. No, not even the US (e.g. school of America, supporting Suharo while he killed 500.000 so called 'communists', supporting other ruthless dictatorships etc. etc).

I have a question for the Chinese though; what is it that you will lose if Taiwan becomes independent? I mean Taiwan is peanuts compared to the potential of China.

Blobber

[edit on 20-10-2005 by Blobber]

First of all, that IF dosen't exist in reality.

Secondly, by stating "Chinese losing the war" and "Taiwan becoming independent", you probably mean the 1.4 billion Chinese around the globe cease to exist, after their 5000 years of civilization. You are actually suggesting the doomday of the world. You might want to ask the vice-chair of China's central military committee (Joint chiefs of staff) what they would choose between Taiwan Independence and Total destruction of Taiwan. (He has made a clear statement on this before, he meant what he said, literally).

Bodebliss: You claimed that the Americans are more than willing and ready to defend Taiwan. Well, This is probably true. Americans have the benefit of choosing when and how to interfere, but they DO NOT have the benefit of deciding when and how and on what terms the war shall end. (They have this domestic laws to bind themselves, how nice, how convenient.)

Better get perpared for the armmargedon? before you even think about defend Taiwan, because Chinese are doing exactly that before they going to a war against the US. Why Chinese should have such abnormal hehaviour, "wouldn't let go of a small peanuts to save the world from the doom", well because that peanut is Chinese peanut. As for the world, "where is the world? I didn't see it". It's meaningless to argue with Chinese, they are all brainwashed, programmed, and living in a different yet unreal world.

Satisfied?

Puri I'm somewhat confused by your statement, though thanks for the links it spares me the effort of having to get into another long and drawn Tibet arguement.

Now we get back into the 23 vs 7000 nukes.

China has around 1800 nukes for strategic purposes sinodefence.com

More then enough to cripple your economy even if we lose, it means essentially that a nuclear exchange is a game of chicken the first to blink loses.

Next, having bases does not constitute an invasion of said nation, just as America having bases in Iceland, Rejevik does not constitute an invasion. Also, America has also supplied arms and poison gas to countries.... say Iraq, Iran, Panama, and various other dictators... need is say more? Morals in realpolitik are subjective to political nessesity. Ethics do not apply except as propoganda.

And yes, the matter with Taiwan is mostly about face, its also about our little civil war which had involved multiman million armies, infact the Nationalists under Chiang outnumbered us about 3-1 in most situations, armed with American vehicals, and paid for with American dollars.

But we won because the people supported us, because there were mass desertions which we took advantage of, Chiang's own transportation and supply corps gave us alot of American equipment. We took good care of prisoners and knowing how Chiang oppressed the people for the sake of political expediancy joined the Red Army and fought for us.

Utilizing the lessons of Sun Tzu (Which Chiang's officers often ignored according to Liddel Hart) and our own tactical innovations we turned Chiang's advantages into weaknesses, and hide our weaknesses as strengths and our strengths as weaknesses. the 1-3 ratio became 3-1 as we drove Chiang out of China into Taiwan.

But we did that not because of some magic but because we were smarter, stronger, and more flexible then Chiang's army could ever be, and we had the wills of the masses behind us at every step and it is through the masses that we eliminated AIDS and HIV to about .01% of the population rather then 15%, we improved the lot of the people through employment, and construction projects that through day to day acts of heroism the people helped in the construction of China.

The Great Leap forward increase steal, petroleom and grain production even though they were rather large fiasco's but heavy and light industry increased and the urban population swelled.

You may discredit us because of the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution, but it was the wills of the people that it sprang into life, Mao and the Gang of Four alone can't be blamed for it because the actual policy regarding it changed from province to province and often it had many benefits such as the elimination of a large percentage of the bearocracy and corruption, the CCP ended it as soon as they could with the aid of the PLA and the revolutionary commitees, and a new culture was born, as now its customary when one makes a mistake to critisize themselves and work harder and better afterwards and learn from their mistakes.

Your arguements regarding Tibet and Taiwan have been proven invalid, arguements of China's future belligerance have been proven wrong, so stop trying to demonize China.

Some of you may claim to "love China" and its culture but you should know that alot of hardwork has been capable because of the CCP, and for those of you that would wish to see China crippled then you are the ones who are evil because crippling China would mean heaping misfortune upon the Chinese people and ruining any hope they have for a better future for their children.

Now you call a man evil for not yet doing something, yet you'ld willingly do it yourself and call it just?

And Bodebliss why would it be a nuke war? China has pledged again and again not to use nuclear weapons in a conflict which would murder millions of innocent human beings yet you'ld willingly kill those same number of millions and even more? Do you not see your own wickedness in that statement? And for what? Just so you can see your nation keep its status? Something that petty and you're willing to sacrifice hundreds of millions of human beings to achieve that end? You need help, come to China and be reeducated by viewing first hand the Chinese people and their everyday struggles for a better future, so you may see the error of your ways.

Otherwise Bodebliss none of your arugements hold any wisdom because everyone of your arguements against China I can apply to you individually and thus by your arguements you are evil and unjust.

Originally posted by puri

Originally posted by Blobber
Hey guys, I have an idea; why don't you (USA and China) work together? You can achieve great things you know if you work together.

Forget the things during the cold war, that era is gone; no side is holier than the other in that time. No, not even the US (e.g. school of America, supporting Suharo while he killed 500.000 so called 'communists', supporting other ruthless dictatorships etc. etc).

I have a question for the Chinese though; what is it that you will lose if Taiwan becomes independent? I mean Taiwan is peanuts compared to the potential of China.

Blobber

[edit on 20-10-2005 by Blobber]

First of all, that IF dosen't exist in reality.

Secondly, by stating "Chinese losing the war" and "Taiwan becoming independent", you probably mean the 1.4 billion Chinese around the globe cease to exist, after their 5000 years of civilization. You are actually suggesting the doomday of the world. You might want to ask the vice-chair of China's central military committee (Joint chiefs of staff) what they would choose between Taiwan Independence and Total destruction of Taiwan. (He has made a clear statement on this before, he meant what he said, literally).

Bodebliss: You claimed that the Americans are more than willing and ready to defend Taiwan. Well, This is probably true. Americans have the benefit of choosing when and how to interfere, but they DO NOT have the benefit of deciding when and how and on what terms the war shall end. (They have this domestic laws to bind themselves, how nice, how convenient.)

Better get perpared for the armmargedon? before you even think about defend Taiwan, because Chinese are doing exactly that before they going to a war against the US. Why Chinese should have such abnormal hehaviour, "wouldn't let go of a small peanuts to save the world from the doom", well because that peanut is Chinese peanut. As for the world, "where is the world? I didn't see it". It's meaningless to argue with Chinese, they are all brainwashed, programmed, and living in a different yet unreal world.

Satisfied?

LOL have you actually read my question ? Where did I say anything that China will lose the war or that 1.5 billion Chinese ends to exist? Where did I say that Chinese behaviour is abnormal?

I will aks you again - and my question is an honest question and nowhere that hostile as you seems to have interepreted it... what is it that you will lose if Taiwain becomes independent? Taiwain is peanuts compared to Chinese potential - peanuts is a non hostile word here in the west meaning 'nothing' in this context. But I shall reformulate my question as you seems to interpret it as a hostile word: what is it that China wants to risk everything for Taiwan ?

So, whether I am satisfied with your answer? Uhm, no.

Blobber


[edit on 20-10-2005 by Blobber]